(FD22.0) THE STAGGERED SCATTERPACK: During a battle in Y81 a SP was launched and during the firing procedure there was a malfunction in the shuttles firing mechanism which caused the drones to be launched 1 at a time. It ended up being very effective in that particular situation and thus became a combat technology alternative.

(FD22.1) A staggered scatterpack uses the same rules as a scatterpack shuttle as described in FD7.0 with the following exceptions listed here.

(FD22.2) The staggered scatterpack can not use F4.0 ballistic targeting.

(FD22.22) Release: At the MW release step (Seeking Weapon Stage ( 6B6 ) of the impulse activity segment) of the impulse of the release conditions are fulfilled, the drones will begin release.
(FD22.221) If the target of the staggered scatterpack leaves the forward arc of the scatterpack, the scatterpack becomes inert and all remaining unlaunched drones are lost.

(FD22.23) Modes of Release: Prior to launching, the owning player must record one of four rates at which the drones are released from the staggered scatterpack.

Mode #1: One drone is launched every impulse until the drone supply is exhausted.

Mode #2: One drone is launched one every two impulses until the drone supply is exhausted.

Mode #3: One drone is launched one every three impulses until the drone supply is exhausted.

Mode #4: One drone is launched one every four impulses until the drone supply is exhausted.

(FD22.24) Prior to launching the owning player must record the order in which the drones are launched from the staggered scatterpack.

(FD22.25) Premature Release: If the staggered scatterpack receives enough damage equal to the premature release trigger level (FD7.31) but less then enough to destroy it, the drones are released acording to the predetermined mode of release (FD22.23).

A Special Thanks to the following people who have helped alot in the design of this rules proposal.

Lawrence Bergen
Jessica Orsini
William Soder

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica) on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 11:24 pm: Edit

Looks good....

By David Kass (Dkass) on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 11:41 pm: Edit

Overall, it looks good.

Several points that probably need clarification (I apologize for not including rule references, but my rules aren't here right now):

1) What happens to the shuttle once it starts releasing the drones under (FD22.22)? (does it continue its seeking course? does it stop?).

2) What happens if the target gets inside the 2 hex myoptic zone of scatterpacks?

3) When can control of the shuttle be released? (I'm guessing the launch of the last drone, but this should be explicitly specified).

4) What happens if the shuttle is damaged, but not destroyed after it starts to launch the drones? (the FD22.0 rules seem to imply this has no effect, but lacking a clear statement, I could see someone arguing that the standard SP rules take effect and the rest of the drones are launched immediately and/or--assuming not mode #1--one drone is launched immediately).

5) How does this work if using random targeting for the drones (which targets are rolled against)? I can see a number of different interpretations arising...

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica) on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 07:10 am: Edit

My recommended answers:

1) It stops moving.
2) It can no longer track the target, and goes inert.
3) Not until the last drone is launched (otherwise, it goes inert).
4) Continues to release on schedule (otherwise, it would be subject to abuse).
5) Darned good question; I'd lean toward recommending that this cannot be random targetted, just for simplicity sake, but I suppose that it could be a case of a random roll for each drone as it leaves the shuttle.

By Michael Powers (Mtpowers) on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 08:52 am: Edit

Is it possible to determine how many drones remain on the scatterpack?

A tactical comment: It's a lot easier to kill one shuttle than it is to kill six drones, so if I see a shuttle fire one drone, I'm going to do my utmost to kill the shuttle right away, giving me four or five drones for the price of one shuttle.

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica) on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 09:22 am: Edit

To the first question: I don't see why it would be, considering that you can't see how many drones are on a normal scatterpack (or, indeed, even that there are drones on it at all).

To the second question: that is indeed the big balancer for this thing; while it plays merry hell with a T-bomb based defense, it broadcasts exactly what the shuttle is as soon as the first drone is launched. That said, I could see a cute little gambit of sending out a shuttle with only a single drone on it, releasing said drone, and then watching with glee as the enemy dedicates firepower to blowing up the "other five drones" that don't exist; it's not something that would work every time and it is suboptimal use of a shuttlecraft, but it does add a bit of fun to the mix.

By Barton Pyle (Bart) on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 09:47 am: Edit

I wish I had time to respond to all these questions at the moment. But I am at work and won't be able to address this until I get home tonight.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 12:31 pm: Edit

There will be a need for a rule regarding order of drone launch. For a mixed scatter pack that will be important.

Did the Type-IV launch first or was it still on the scatter pack when it was fianlly destroyed?

By Frank Brooks (Alskdjf) on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 12:41 pm: Edit

Loren,

See (FD22.24).

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 01:11 pm: Edit

Hahahahah... I skipped that part in his rule but the really funny thing is that I went and tried to look up (FD22.24) in my MRB!

Oh man, what a dork I am!

By Frank Brooks (Alskdjf) on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 01:35 pm: Edit

hehehe

I originally have the word "above" at the end of the line, but I figured it wasn't needed so I removed it. :-)

By Barton Pyle (Bart) on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 08:45 pm: Edit

David Kass's Questions

1) What happens to the shuttle once it starts releasing the drones under (FD22.22)? (does it continue its seeking course? does it stop?).
A. It would stop as per FD7.33

2) What happens if the target gets inside the 2 hex myoptic zone of scatterpacks?
A. It would continue to track the target as per FD7.331 until FD22.221 applied.

3) When can control of the shuttle be released? (I'm guessing the launch of the last drone, but this should be explicitly specified).

A. Not until the last drone is launched (otherwise, it goes inert). (Thanks Jessica)

4) What happens if the shuttle is damaged, but not destroyed after it starts to launch the drones? (the FD22.0 rules seem to imply this has no effect, but lacking a clear statement, I could see someone arguing that the standard SP rules take effect and the rest of the drones are launched immediately and/or--assuming not mode #1--one drone is launched immediately).

A. Continues to release on schedule (otherwise, it would be subject to abuse). (Thanks again Jessica)

5) How does this work if using random targeting for the drones (which targets are rolled against)? I can see a number of different interpretations arising...

A. Random roll for each drone as it leaves the shuttle as long as the targets are within the FA arc of the Staggered Scatterpack. (But I'm not totally sure about this one, lets talk about this option).

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar) on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 10:34 pm: Edit

Of course, the deception value just went up! Did that shuttle that launched one drone a multi-drone SP, a single drone SP (one turn loading), or an MRS with a rack...

By Richard K. Glover (Fahrenheit) on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 02:10 pm: Edit

Actually, I'd rather see the "damage threshold causes all drones to launch".

Since you're not permitted to fire on your own SP (without it going inert), it wouldn't help the owner to change it's programming. ...

But it WOULD permit the enemy to force it to dump everything all at once, if he so chose - say for exmaple, in preparation to kill them with a t-bomb.

See, that adds another tactical option to the game. I like more options.

By Jeff Laikind (J_Laikind) on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 04:00 pm: Edit

Or, have the "launch on damage" decision be part of the launch decision. That adds even more options. And it may be one that the owner regrets when it happens .

By David Lang (Dlang) on Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 03:51 am: Edit

personally I like the idea that when damaged the SP just goes into it's pre-programmed launch sequence, for a normal SP that's everything, for this option it's slower.

in part this helps counter it's flexibility becouse it no longer needs to be overkilled, the enemy can keep plinking at it until it's dead efficiantly

By Barton Pyle (Bart) on Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 03:47 pm: Edit

I believe the staggered release after the SP has been damaged is the best coarse of action at this moment. It is a restriction for its flexibility. But who knows, it may change due to playtesting. It might be to much of a restriction.

Let playtesting be the judge. (If this makes it that far).

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 01:40 am: Edit

Why are all the drones lost (FD22.221). I can still pick up the shuttle so why would I not be able to re-load or un-load the SP afterwards.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 06:54 pm: Edit

Point #1: Y81 is the original year of introduction for scatter pack shuttles (YFD7.0). I am not sure that I would be willing to agree that scatter pack shuttles could always be used in this manner.

Point #2: As the rules for multi-warhead drones say to use the rules for scatter packs (FD8.22), you need to include a disclaimer that this is, or is not, available for use by multi-warhead drones.

Point #3: Under your rule (FD22.221) any remaining drones are lost if the target exits the FA arc of the scatter pack, causing it to go inert. There are several problems with this:
Point#3A: Operation as a scatter pack does not involve the fire control system of the shuttle in any way, so why would the target need to be in its FA arc? Currently, the only shuttles that require the target be in their FA arc are fighter scatter packs (FD7.444), and this is a limitation of their drone/plasma-D rails or plasma-F launcher. Why would this use of the scatter pack shuttle require the target be in its FA arc? How did the first scatter pack that accidentally used this system demonstrate this particular facet?
Point #3B: No other scatter pack "loses" any drones (or plasma-Ds, or a plasma-F) if it goes inert (FD7.416). [But note that there is effectively no way to recover a plasma-F platform with its plasma-F (FD7.394).] Why would this one?
Point #3C: You need to clearly define "leaving the FA arc" if you intend to keep this rule. Scatter pack shuttles move as seeking weapons (FD7.32), which means they track their targets. A strict reading of your rule by a "rules lawyer" would mean that if on Impulse #X the target moved out of the FA arc of the scatter pack BEFORE IT BEGAN LAUNCHING DRONES on an impulse that it did not move (so it could not turn to face on the same impulse), it would go inert. I am sure that your intent is that this rule applies after the scatter pack has begun releasing drones (and I may be wrong), but it is vague.
Point #3D: You need to further consider rules interactions. Someone might claim that this means that a displaced unit, even if it was still in the FA arc of the Scatter Pack, was "out of arc" during the period of the displacement even if it ended the displacement in the arc of the unit. Further note that a unit might be displaced completely out of arc while the scatter pack was still seeking it and before it began launching drones, and by this rule, even if it could turn on the next impulse, it would go inert. Also consider if the target moved behind a planet. See (G18.425) which says that normally if a unit is the target of a seeking weapon and displaces it, the seeking weapon retains tracking.
Point #3E: Consider a Scout using a channel to "attract" a seeking weapon applied to the shuttle (G24.23). What if the scout is outside the FA arc?
Point #3F: Normal seeking weapons transfer their targeting to a larger unit if the target docks to or inside such a unit (F2.335). In such a case, the rules lawyer will argue that this means the target is "no longer in the FA arc" and the shuttle must go inert, i.e., that the FA arc rules provides an exception to the normal transfer of tracking.
Point #3G: If a speed 0-11 ship that is not the target tractors the scatter pack, does it go inert under the provisions of (G7.91)? The FA arc restriction implies that this would be different from the rules in (FD7.46).
Point #3H: If a staggered scatter pack is displaced, I assume it goes inert (provided the unit that displaced it was not its target). Note that while you are saying to use the rules for scatter packs, by including the FA arc restriction you open up the door to these questions and must resolve them. This would apply to anything else that results in "disrupted fire control" for the shuttle (like being held in stasis for an impulse).

Point #4: Since this is a new form of targeting for a scatter pack, you must define if a successful lab (or other seeking weapon identification procedure) attempt will reveal if the scatter pack will launch in a staggered manner, or simply that it is a seeking shuttle.
Point#4A: Since the shuttle does not go inert, but does stop moving once it launches its first drone, is an announcement that it has now "gone inert" required when it has launched its last drone, even if it launches only one drone? This is not as obtuse as you might think since by (FD22.23) (your rule) the fact that it has not launched a drone in the following three impulses does not mean that it is out of drones.

Point #5: Flat out, if this system is possible, then it is obviously possible to configure the shuttle to launch two drones on one impulse, one drone on the next, and three on the one following or any other combination.

Point #6: If you are using the normal rules for scatter packs, the scatter pack might be launched on "random targeting", how does this system handle that? Do not ask why someone would do it, the fact is that someone might (for example, he might think he can have the scatter pack engage the fighters that are launching one every other impulse from the enemy carrier).

Point #7: Scatter pack targeting requires you to note what "distance or less" the scatter pack will release its drones. What happens if you set a release range of ten hexes, and the target moves to eleven hexes after the first drone is released?

Point #8: You are going to have to define how this thing handles wild weasels. If the first drone destroys the weasel, and by the release of the fifth drone the explosion period has ended, do the fifth and sixth drones pursue the hex the wild weasel was destroyed in, or do they go for the original ship (this is something that might happen with four impulse delay between releases).

By Barton Pyle (Bart) on Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 07:15 pm: Edit

SPP

Thank you for those points you have made and the time to make them. It seems I have alot of work to do. I will try and address them all and will post an update after some careful thinking.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 10:43 pm: Edit

Barton, SPP is very good at making you think. "Did I put ANY thought into this at all?" He's done it to me regularly. But I can easily envision most of your possible responses to his points.

So he is VERY good at making you think and having to answer the hard questions on any proposed rule. (Even if you feel as if you went through the laundry mangle).

But the Staggered SP is a fairly straight forward rule. Just wait until you see what he's done to the Shield Galaxy stuff. (Everything he's touched has improved by at least 100%.)

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 11:41 pm: Edit

SPP:

I'm curious as to how the shuttle fire control is not involved in the opperation of an SP.

If I understand correctly; a drone under regular guidance is guided to it's taget by it's own "passive terminal guidance" and thus seeks the target that is having detectable signals focused on it by the controlling ship.

That being said, surely the SP works the same way???


I'm not looking to debate you or prove you wrong, I'm just thinking it might make an interesting artical in a CL under the section TO ASK THE QUESTION WHY. Specifically "why isn't the shuttle's own fire control involved in the opperation of an SP?"

By David Lang (Dlang) on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 12:30 am: Edit

Ok, addressing SPP's points

#1 YIS can be changed as needed, one option is to say that this requires smarter electronics and so is only availabe to shuttles after some technological point (say MRS shuttles, or shuttles built after X-technology is available for example)

#2 I would say this should not be available to MW drones. we can make up whatever technobabble is needed to cover this.

#3, yikes, the FA restriction opens up a ton of problems, how about dropping this unless playtesting shows that this is too powerful

#4 I would say that it just gets identified as a seeking shuttle
#4a I would say no announcement, it would no longer be a seeking shuttle after it goes inert, but I don't see any obvious way that the enemy would automaticaly detect this.

#5 another play balance item that seems to be causing problems

#6 I thought we covered this one by saying that each impulse is handled independantly for random targeting rolls

#7 I could see two options here
A. the distance or less is a trigger for starting the launch and is ignored after that (just like damage would be ignored after the launch sequence starts)
B. each launch impulse you check for distance and if it's not met you either loose the drone or wait until it is met

I would tend towards A as being simpler at first glance, but as I note in my new proposal below going to B couls allow a bunch of things to be combined making the overall rule simpler

#8 I would say that drones are affected by a WW or not based on the conditions at the impulse of launch.

overall it seems that the worst issues are caused the the items that have been thrown in to attempt to balance the extra power this provides.

maby we should put forward the most powerful version of this and then after we see playtesting results consider how much we need to trim this back.

proposed revised rules

availability, either Y??? or some technological timeframe (advanced electronics that get put in shuttles when X technology is available for example)

launch rate, at the time of launching the SP the owning player records the launch sequence of the drones (any sequence, possibly with a restriction that it must be completed in less then 32 impulses)

if the shuttle is damaged it starts the pre-programmed launch sequence

not available to MW drones

this launch mode is not directly detectable by labs (just shows up as a seeking shuttle), it can be detected indirectly by the fact that it will still show as a seeking shuttle after the first drone launch, but will show as inert after all drones have launched.

if the target leaves the 35 hex tracking range the shuttle goes inert

each impulse that the SP is scheduled to fire the target criteria is evaluated (including random targeting, effects of WW, effects of the 2 hex myopic zone). if there is no target available that meets the criteria the shuttle holds it's fire and checks again the next impulse (note that play balance could change this to say that the drone(s) for that impulse are fired into empty space and go inert)

if a SP is launched ballisticly it continues to move after starting it's launch sequence (I beleive that a normal ballistic SP continues to move after it launches so this would be the same)

if the SP is not lauched ballisticly then it stops moving when it startes the launch sequence


now if playtesting shows that this is too powerful then there are a couple obvious options to limit it before we start adding things like the FA restriction or other things that SPP raised as issues.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 08:14 am: Edit

#1. I recommend Y125, when speed 6, armed shuttles become available. Alternately, Y167ish, when fighter guidance of drones is available (not that they are DIRECTLY related).

#5. Simple technobabble. The launch mechanism is different than a standard SP and is incapable of launching multiple drones in the same impulse.

By Frank Brooks (Alskdjf) on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 09:03 am: Edit

MJC,

An SP is a seeking weapon itself. Until it releases its drones, it is being guided by the ship. After it releases, it goes inert. The shuttle's own fire control is never turned on.