Since the introduction of heavy fighters, the Hydran had struggled to provide their squadrons with electronic warfare support. While the Klingons and Lyrans could install up to 4 EW pods on the drone rails of the EWF of their heavy fighter squadrons, the Hydran could only counter with 2 EW pods as extra pods. Unfortunately this left the EWF both short on EW power and suffering penalties for speed and manuverability.

During the development of the megafighter packs for their heavy fighters, the Hydran engineers provided a solution to the problem by developing a EW pack as an alternative. This was done by exchanging the extra fusion beam charges for EW pod rails. The EW megafighter pack allowed the EWF of a heavy fighter squadron to match their counterparts in both power and speed.

Within a few monthes of encountering the Hydrans using an EW pack, the Klingons and Lyrans copied the idea as giving up the extra disruptor charges was preferred to giving up their drones. Within a year all races were using heavy fighter EW megapacks.

An electronic warfare megafighter pack gives the speed and damage advantages, and reduction in DFR, as the standard megafighter pack. These packs do not add extra charges for the fighter's heavy weapons, nor drone or plamsa-D/K rails. The packs adds 4 EW pod rails, which are used in the same manner as (J16.245) and do effect the speed of the fighter. Usually only one fighter of a squadron is eqipped this way, with the rest using standard packs.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 05:54 pm: Edit

John Wyszynski:

Does everything really need to be the same?

Okay, the Romulans (Tribune is short one EW pod after giving up its two plasma-Ds, i.e., only carries four EW pods for lending, Tribune-F would only have one plasma-D if it carried the five allowed EW pods for lending), Gorns (both the G-30 and G-32 are short one EW pod giving up their two plasma-Ds), Tholians (also lack the rails of the drone fighters like the Hydrans), Hydrans (the basis of yoru proposal), ISC (the HF is the same as the Tribune, and the HFF is the same as the Tribune-F), and Jindarians (whose Meteor-H also lacks the drone rails) are not as good at EW as the drone heavy fighters that lack internal bays (Federation A-20, A-20F, Klingon Z-H, Z-HB, and Kzinti LAS, LSF). Do they HAVE to be equal? Does the EW equation have to equal Zero? I suppose we could go back to square one and redesign everyone's scouts to have exactly the same amount of power and exactly the same number of special sensors while we are at it.

I am not saying that you should not propose this, it might be rabidly supported and SVC may green light it, but it is not something that I am going to 'stand up and salute'.

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 06:41 pm: Edit

No real reason that they would be the same, just made it easier. The Hydran had been keeping pace with other races by building dedicated EWF. The rules for heavy fighter EWF didn't allow them to keep up. Rather than proposing a EWF of the heavy fighter, I proposed this instead. If this was limited to just a few races that would be fine.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 07:21 pm: Edit

John Wyszynski:

"The Hydran had been keeping pace with other races"

So did the Tholians (Spider-E). Everything you have said in your reply applies to the Tholians.

This then gets us back to "It is all right and adds flavor for some races not to be able to do things as well as other races . . . as long as it is not MY race." In this case the Hydrans.

And if we agree to give the Hydrans this toy, that gets us into "Well, you gave it to the Hydrans, so why not my race also."

To which your response would usually be "Well, that is easy, just give it to MY race and stop."

Or perhaps in this case you will be magnanimous and say "just give it to my race and the Tholians and stop.", but it will not stop because the other races that now have moved to the "bottom rung" on the heavy fighter EW ladder will complain that they should also get "fixed".

Understand again that I do not have a problem with your proposing this, I am just not in favor of taking all the flavor out of the EW game.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 10:18 pm: Edit

Doesn't megapacking a EWF increase it's EW pod loadout by 2?

Any mega-EWF should be able to carry a max of 4 pods.

...unless there's some limitation on heavy fighters I don't know about

...and then you stick a stinger-EM in with the group.

By Michael Powers (Mtpowers) on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 11:50 pm: Edit

John T: the Stinger-S mega-pack just adds another pair of fusion-beam charges and a second hellbore shot. It doesn't provide extra drone rails, because the Stinger-S isn't an EWF. (Pod rails are only added in an EWF-specific mega-pack.)

You're correct that a mega-EWF could carry up to four pods, but if the baseline EWF doesn't carry any pods (i.e. the F-16E) then the mega-EWF would be slower if it carried more than two pods.

Personally, I always thought that the Hydrans didn't consider heavy fighters very useful, so the fact that a heavy-fighter squadron might have EW problems did not bother them. Hydrans only really used heavies on bases, which had enough power that an EWF wasn't necessary.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 07:48 am: Edit

I love the Hydran heavy fighters. 12 spaces of shuttles with 6 hellbores is a great ratio.

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 09:45 am: Edit

I had been under the assmption that all heavy fighters fell under (J16.242) or (J16.243) which gives the fighter more charges or added Plasma-Ds. But could a heavy fighter is configured as a EWF, could this fighter instead fall under (J16.245) instead? If so, it would allow the Hydran and Tholians to carry two pods without slowing the EWF. This is half of what I proposed, but would allow them to be somewhat competative.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 10:25 am: Edit

John Wyszynski:

Two things.

First, there is a flaw in your analysis that "The Hydran had been keeping pace with other races by building dedicated EWF." The Hydrans have a Stinger-E not because they built a dedicated EWF, but because they built very few fighter types. A Stinger-E is nothing more than than the two-seat version of the Stinger-2 configured as an EWF. The Hydrans built A LOT OF FIGHTERS, but only a FEW FIGHTER TYPES. This was because of the way their fleet operated. Thus, all ships could use Stingers and only Stingers needed to be provided as replacements. But the Stinger-2, Stinger-H, Stinger-F, and Stinger-E are all the same fighter, just with different rearming requirements. Compared to the Klingons/Lyrans/LDR where the Z-1, Z-2, Z-V, Z-Y, Z-D/Z-P were all different fighters entirely. The different fighter types also applies to the Federation and the Kzintis, and so on. So the your start point is falacious (through no fault of your own, this is not meant in any cruel way, I am just having trouble trying to phrase the above better).

Second point, as any heavy fighter in a squadron can be an EWF, to the extent that if your heavy fighter EWF was destroyed during a scenario you can simply install the necessary software on one of the remaining Heavy Fighters, you are not going to get a special heavy fighter EWF megapack because you cannot change megapacks.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 12:35 pm: Edit

....which is why I sugested mixing in a stinger-EM if an EWF was needed.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 12:57 pm: Edit

John Trauger:

Under the existing rules in order to use a Stinger-E you could only have five Stinger-S/Ts. You could, of course, also add one normal Stinger to the squadron.

By Michael Powers (Mtpowers) on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 12:59 pm: Edit

Also, as I understand it, you can only add an EWF to a squadron if that squadron is on a true carrier (not just a hybrid.) So most Hydran ships can't get Stinger-E. (they can put EW Pods on the fighters they carry, but that slows the fighters down, and they can't lend EW to each other.)

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 01:06 pm: Edit

Michael Powers:

You understand that incorrectly. Refer, for example, to the SSD of the Hydran Ranger in Module C1, you will see that the nine fighters include a Stinger-E. The restriction on EWFs is that the squadron must have at least eight fighters. And of course combat losses or mission requirements could result in the "squadron" with the EWF having a lot fewer than eight fighters. The reason many Hydran Hybrid ships do not have Stinger-Es is because they have fewer than eight fighters.

By William Curtis Soder (Ghyuka) on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 01:16 pm: Edit

Can't Hydran hybrid carriers lend EW to their fighters. If so, then put the darn things to work to make up for the lack of dedicated EW fighters. You know, this is comparable to the whole "Lyran P/Fs suck" thing. Yes, Hydrans may have an EW Fighter disadvantage but when you bring out fighters on nearly every ship, it kinda balances out.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 03:43 pm: Edit

William Curtis:

Yes, Hydran hybrid ships can lend EW to their fighters, but for many of them it is a sword with two blades, one facing the enemy, the other facing themselves.

Power spent lending EW to your fighters is power not spent moving (to get close), arming the fusion beams (which more so than other heavy weapons are more effective up close), generating EW to help get maximum effect from your fusion beams (like phasers, fusion beams are really hurt by EW in terms of their maximum damage output), recharging your fighter ready racks, etc.

The problem is that fusion ships are designed to fight close, and power spent on lending to the fighters is power not spent on getting close, or dealing the damage you need to deal when you do get close.

This does not mean that you do not do it, but it does mean that it is something you have to think about carefully and weigh the pros and cons.

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 04:13 pm: Edit

I seem to have misstated the case of the Stinger-E. This was not intended, but was the result of having just reread the Stinger development history in CL21. It has a number of other EWF variants, which I guess clouded my view.

I started this proposal because the existing EWF rule for heavy fighters is great for all the races that have seeking weapons, and sucks for those that don't. Changing the software on a heavy fighter doesn't do any good if you don't also external EW pods installed. For the Hydrans, Tholians, and Jindarians this carrying means strapping them on as extras and slowing the entire squadron.

I guess that is just life. Just exploring different options here.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 04:20 pm: Edit

John Wyszynski:

There is nothing wrong with exploring options, and as I have noted, the decision gets made by SVC, not me.

As to the CL#21 article, you should note that all of those EWFs are variants of the early fighter (the Stinger-1) which was supplanted by the later fighter (the Stinger-2). Even though there were different versions of the Stinger-2E (phaser-3 version and phaser-G version, Stinger-1 engine version with phaser-3, stinger-1 engine version with phaser-G), they were still the Stinger-2 frame.

By William Curtis Soder (Ghyuka) on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 04:36 pm: Edit

John, there was an argument not long ago over a certain type of EW drone that drone users had and others didn't and some felt it was an advantage that the Hydrans and Tholians didn't get. Hydrans and Tholians do have ways of countering this percieved advantage and need to explore their availible options. Keep in mind the balance of the Hydrans being able to field far more fighters on the map than others as well as Tholian webs are a massive difference maker. Many times, the balance isn't in idividual units but in their ability to mesh with other units.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 07:23 pm: Edit

John Wyszynski: I typed the below and have added you as the header here to call your attention to it. If this has not already solved the problem you are thinking of, let me know.

By the way, something that seems to have been missed. The Hydran Stinger-T actually got a "third pod rail" (it is in its "ship description), so a Hydran Stinger-T operating in EWF mode could carry three EW pods (although this WILL slow it down by three movement points, and by definition would slow down the rest of the squadron in order to benefit), but technically between the two points of built-in ECM, two points of built in ECCM, two points of EW that can be designated as either from the built-in EW pod, the six points that Stinger-T operating in EWF mode could lend means that all six Stinger-Ts would have the full six and six, although at the cost of moving speed 12 (or speed 27 with mega-packs or warp booster packs). So, essentially, John Wyszynski already has what he was asking for without making any changes to the Megapack.

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 08:34 pm: Edit

I had missed the third pod rail thing; or perhaps it didn't register what "improved flexibility" meant as I read it. I'm sure others have missed this also.

Thank you for clearing that up. This game is so big that sometimes the answer is not where you looked for it.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 10:17 am: Edit

Petrick: "as I have noted, the decision gets made by SVC, not me."

True. But why do I have a feeling that an idea has a much better chance of SVC's approval if you like it, and a much worse chance if you don't?? I would think that your opinion would weight heavily on his decision-making process.


Garth L. Getgen

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 02:33 pm: Edit

John Wyszynski:

This topic was mentioned by SVC as under consideration for module Extreme Mesures...

Do you still see this problem as "unsolved", "resolved/withdrawn" or are you considering changing it to reflect Steve Petrick's input?

I'm not calling for any specific action, but if this is going to be reopened as an ongoing discussion, it would help (I think) to know what your current opinion is.

Thanks.

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 02:47 pm: Edit

I had considered it resolved by SPP's post of 3/30/2005. As such I don't really see it as a Extreme Missions rule. But it could be part of a larger alternate mega-packs rule I guess. I think there was a topic elsewhere dicussing other mega-packs, but I don't remember if EW packs were amoung them.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 03:17 pm: Edit

John, thank you, it seemed pretty well settled.

(amazing how well Steve Petrick can sum up a topic!)

I wonder if SVC considered this as a general expansion of EW packs for all races mega fighter pack?

(I don't know if that is what SVC has in mind... but I do not see a definite direction for this topic to go in unless it is in a direction other than that covered by SPP.

Giving MFP's more ECM pods would make them more survivable in the late GW/ X tech generation... but there is a limit to what you can do for 1,2,3 or 4 space fighters and shuttles given the restrictions in place for using Electronic Warfare points.