And then there are nasty problems like production costs.

SFB is not a game you pick up by reading the rulebook and skimming for 15 minutes before you can play. It's a game that's learned by playing it, preferably being taught by someone else.

Someone may still have a copy of my "teach SFB syllabus" around. It got et in the bbs purge a while ago. Was in the Rangers topic.

I think to make SFB get more players, it should be demoed with minis, or something like them. My own experiences with demoing SFB and DV is that visual appeal is everything when getting players at your table.

So is going out and saying "Hey, want to try something?" along with immediate rewards.

By Nick Blank (Nickb) on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 11:31 pm: Edit

But what scale would you use for a hardbound map. Standard size is really to small for many things, and as you scale it up it can quickly get too big. So what would be a good size for a hardbound board?

If you use hexes the size of the F&E map, then a standard 30 by 42 board comes in at around 22 by 28.5 inches. Seems large, but maybe reasonable. Could be expensive though.

The largest hardbound board that I have came with my RISK game and is 22.5 by 21 inches, so this would be slightly bigger than that.

Nick

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 11:37 pm: Edit

The problem with a hardbound map is that you'd have to buy about 5,000 of them (and sell 30) and it would cost several dollars each. Just don't have twenty grand to spend to sell 30 copies. Maybe if we win the lottery.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 12:16 am: Edit

If I win the Lottery, I'll front the expence.

Some times reallity really gets in the way!

Just know, I am a guaranteed buyer for that. (and every captains log.)

5000 units heh?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 12:18 am: Edit

SVC: What kind of deal would be nessasary to get you to go for it, for real. I have resorces. Who knows what could happen.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 12:48 am: Edit

Could SFB LE come with a minitures map and one miniture for each race while still keeping the cost below $30?

Figure Fed CA, Klink D7, Rom KE (with no cloak?), Gorn, Tholian, Kzinti BC. That's 6 minis, map and rules for $29.95. Want a mini to play a frigate battle? Buy one on-line or order it from your local gaming store. Anyone you get hooked will simultaneously get hooked on minis yielding long term profits. Think how much you can save by not printing cardboard counters!

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 01:03 am: Edit

For the ships in LE I'd like to see tourney style balance (at beginner level) between ships. Yes, this means there will be non-historical, but close SSDs, just like in the tourney. I'd go with 1 FF, 1 DD, 1 CW, 1 CA, 1 DN for each race paying no particular attention to YIS. No ship has refits, COs, drone points, etc. as all that stuff is pre-listed on the SSD (no players agonizing over drone points). They are balanced out of the box. Heck, they may not even need a BPV.

Six races * five classes = 30. Two pages for a simplified DAC and an Impulse Chart. LE rulebook needs to be kept between 64-96 pages.

So now I have a box, a mini-map, 6 minis, 1-96 page rulebook, 1-32 page SSD book, 2 SFB dice. Still for $30 retail? If it could be done it sure would be attractive to new players.

By Captain Ebersole (George_Ebersole) on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 03:04 am: Edit

Loren; I think we differ on Classic Trek's appeal to younger folks. I honestly don't know, but I get the sense from talking with other people (and the few ST sites I've been to) that younger generations are attracted to new Trek. I'm glad the Sci-Fi channel is keeping Classic Trek live (like my old orange and black fan button says; "STAR TREK Lives!" ), but I just don't think that's enough to keep SFB alive and well. SFB's always been a niche market game, but unless it reaches for more players it will die.

I like Tos's miniature suggestion; a cruiser per race, and SSDs to reflect the ships.

More brainstorming;
SSDs; either several high quality color print laminated SSDs, or an eight page book that's equally attractive. Maybe with a little blurb on what race uses the ship, just to keep a high-tech feel for the player and game; like a "Janes" rundown or something. Maybe simplify the SSDs themselves.

Dice; high quality transparent dice, not the current SFB dice.

Streamlined Impulse chart; maybe reintroduce the old 6, 10, and 20 charts. Maybe just use the 10 impulse chart, and rewrite the physic's fiction to accomodate this change.

Rulebook; I agree with doing away with the realistic, yet headache inducing firing arcs for this edition. Just say weapons mounted on the left side of the ship can fire at things on the left side of the ship, and so on. Explain movement, firing, and damage allocation, but nothing more.

One of my big concerns is that a new SFB incarnation not go the way of the new version of Car Wars. I grew up on Car Wars. I bought and played the first "pocket" edition of that game, and enjoyed it through middle school, high school, and college (and hope to get a game going in the future). But from what I understand the newer edition isn't worth a whole lot to venerable CW players like myself. I haven't played it, but the word "on the street" (if you'll pardon the pun) is that if you like the old Car Wars, then you won't care for the new Car Wars.

Which is why, in my personal opinion anyway, that a new incarnation not veer too much away from what's already been established in the twenty year development of this game.

That's it for now. I'll write more later.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 10:18 am: Edit

LE? Lottery Edition?

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica) on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 11:05 am: Edit

Off-topic:

Regarding maps, I've long since found that the best way to go is to lay a light-colored map (say, light blue) under a thin piece of plexiglass. Keeps everything nice and level, minis/counters glide effortlessly over it, and you can use temporary markers to mark all sorts of things on the plexiglass (mines, point-of-turn, webs, asteroids, etc). The reason for using a light-colored map is so that you can actually see the markers; you can also get away with using a standard black (or dark blue) map and light-colored grease pencils.

As such, a hardbacked map just doesn't have a lot of appeal to me.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 11:30 am: Edit

SFB LE - Star Fleet Battles Light Edition
Simplified rules and improved visuals designed to appeal the the SFC player while providing a solid intro to SFB somewhere between Cadet and Basic. Problems abound but the cost of not attracting new players is worse.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 11:39 am: Edit

LE....


Well, Star Fleet Action (aka Star Fleet Squadrons) is supposed to be simplified rules and better visuals, and while it won't really be a watered-down SFB designed to move people into SFB, the general theory is that SFB is far too much for most people to move into. Those who will move into SFB already do without much trouble. But ten times as many will never move into SFB and for them SFA/SFS would seem to be just the thing.

By Hugh Bishop (Wildman) on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 12:51 pm: Edit

Steve you are exactly right and I believe that GPD will also be a good vehicle to convert younger roleplayers to The SFU and thereby to SFB. The Scale Models are another avenue that fathers(parents) can bring their kids into the SFU. To back up Ken about visual appeals, I took a survey of the players at Desert Con asking what they thought would make a tournament more appealing, they all said that using Miniatures on the bigger board (module W) would not only be more enjoyable to them but might attract bystander attention as well. To that end I have begun to collect Cruiser minis for the next tourney I run.

By Captain Ebersole (George_Ebersole) on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 03:06 pm: Edit

Hugh, GURPS may do just that. But you can't escape the fact that Classic Trek is older than all of the younger fans out there. In my opinion the look is just too dated to capture them in great numbers.

By Robert Cole (Zathras6) on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 03:15 pm: Edit

I beg to differ. I was born the year the Pocket Edition of SFB was released ('79). This makes me 12 - 13 years younger than TOS. However, I find the SFB Fed, Klink, Rom, Tholian, etc. designs much preferable to anything 'the Franchise' has released.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 03:58 pm: Edit

Robert: Thats because you had the grace to be born with some common sense Berman designs tend to appeal to those without that lucky quality. Even though the Defiant (DS9) happens to be my favorite Franchise ship.

By Robert Cole (Zathras6) on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 04:04 pm: Edit

Not to say I don't like some of the new designs... Defiant, Enterprise-C, and Enterprise-E are very nice.
As a side note, I consider Enterprise-Refit and Enterprise-A to be X-tech SFB ships... so those are also excellent designs.

By Hugh Bishop (Wildman) on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 04:27 pm: Edit

George, I never said that getting the TNGetc, stuff would not be good, but I just don't think that it is possible without huge expense and unwanted restrictions from paramount. Indeed getting TNG could prove to be the end of our beloved game instead of the boon you may think it to be. I think we have to work with and along the lines that SVC is going, appeal to roleplayers miniatures enthusiasts, model builders,etc. As Far as LE goes maybe a new type of cruiser design could be the feature. One that is sleeker and "sexier" than the standard CA's. Or you could use X-1 cruisers.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 04:39 pm: Edit

Some of the kids out my way are very retro. George, being in the Bay Area, I am suprised you haven't noticed that.

I'm going to wait for Star Fleet Action to see what we need after that. If SVC thinks that may do the trick then I'm sure he knows his stuff.

Is a hard bound, laminated hex map that unattractive? I got some large hex maps for Gamex(?) and rubber cemented them to core board. Works great, but its a little big to tote around. A nice single fold board would be my cup of tea. Maybe I'll just make my own.

By Matthew J. Francois (Francois42) on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 06:15 pm: Edit

Tos: I like your idea, but I think it suffers from one problem: There is a group of players who won't like the fact that the ships they learned on aren't "real" ships.

Although historical ships do pose a few snags, I would think it better to use them, simply because:
1.) A definite link and progression from the Light Edition to the Full Edition.
2.) Allows new players to play a few historical scenarios... regardless if they are learning through the LE or through the Full Edition.

Just my $0.02. I think a Light Edition, however, would be a great introduction!

-Francois
francois@purdue.edu

By Captain Ebersole (George_Ebersole) on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 07:02 pm: Edit

Hugh, you're reading too much into my post. My only opinion is that I don't believe the Sci-fi channel's airing of Classic Trek to be the great hook that it used to be back in the 70's. The artwork on the sets is dated, the uniforms are dated, the overall look is dated, heck even the film grain and overall image quality is dated

Getting a new license with all kinds of strings attached (unreasonable strings in terms of the fiction) wouldn't be a good thing, and that did cross my mind. A smart studio executive would say "Hey! This is great! Give those guys a license, and let them help keep our product alive!" As you say in the power's that be mindset, in their never ending boneheaded attempt to try and keep things consistent (which they've trashed over and over again on too numerous occasions), they would probably insert a clause as to what SVC and gang could do, and what they could not with the newer Trek material. But that's speculation on our part. Ultimately we, the players, do not know.

Loren; the whole retro thing went out a few years back, man! Get with the times

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 07:08 pm: Edit

Its still buggin around here. Less than before but still boogien'

I should have known though, who has time to boogie with the real estate prices up there!

By Dwight Lillibridge (Nostromo) on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 08:44 pm: Edit

the misses likes the glossy paper 4 color type of ssd says they are prettier and not so boring

By David Kass (Dkass) on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 05:52 pm: Edit

1) I don't see the point of laminated SSDs. Everyone I know now photocopies them. Perhaps provide an SSD pad (ie tearoff SSDs a bit like the D7/CA in the basic set SSD book).

2) When making color SSDs, make sure the colors use photocopy well and are sufficiently light that blue/black ink is visible on top of them.

3) The rules need to transition cleanly into standard SFB, or be a separate game. By this I mean, stick with the 32 impluse chart, keep standard arcs (no problem with ditching things like Klingon arcs). I can see simplifying the split shield to "defender chooses."

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 06:14 pm: Edit

I put my SSDs in a plastic page cover and use greese pencils. Saves on paper and costs. For the SSDs it workes great. For EA its a little ungainly but its not too bad. On one side is the EA form and the other is the SSD. I have several in a binder along with several other useful forms like, the DAC and the Impulse chart, a MWC, weapons arming cycle summary, useful charts and tables page from Advanced Missions, a repair chart,the sequence of play extract from R1,the EW ready-reference card(R1), Commanders options from R1, the Terrain ready-reference card and a reduced scale map (R1). I also added the power Absorber chart for Devastator, pseudo-speed calculation chart, drone and plasma record forms. There are others as well. This is all in a binder all is slip covers. Not expencive. Totaly reuseable. Works great. Dosn't get women to play at all though.
We have gotten a bit off topic. Maybe a new one should be started.