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Joisey: No, your situation is not exceptional, and does not apply. You cannot afford to do it. You may own the freighters but you still cannot afford to spend the money on this silliness, and in any case, R11 outlawed it.

I thought this topic had been shut down and deleted a long long time ago as it is just not a workable idea, and no "exceptional case" is EVER going to exist that makes it workable.

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Wednesday, June 04, 2008 - 02:54 pm: Edit

I just hope Joisey joins the F&E train...... he lives in NJ, and I need players!

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, June 04, 2008 - 04:20 pm: Edit

Well, there's those Hilton Brothers who do shipping to support their hobby of maintaining and flying fighters... but they are the only ones.


I know, the booth is down the hall.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, June 04, 2008 - 05:07 pm: Edit

Or the Blackagua Interstellar (note Blackwater International just bought a Brazilian fighter bomber)

By John R. Poirier, Esq (Joisey) on Wednesday, June 04, 2008 - 11:29 pm: Edit

Well. Thanks to everyone for their responses. I still have some more thoughts on this:

Loren: Thanks for at least taking a stab at the Big Question. The ratio of pirates to freighters is a big question, because it gives some hard data to base a conclusion on what the given liklihood is of a pirate attack on a ship. Once you decide what the odds are, and can express them in a die roll, the rest of the mechanics for how frequently pirate attacks occur during a campaign can be worked out. But I take it that your figures are really just guesses.

Right now, I am rolling two dice every month/turn to see if a Pirate Shipping Raid will occur. On a roll of 12, there is a raid. One is added to the die roll each subsequent month until a raid occurs. If the shipping is sent via a convoy, there is a -2 to the die roll, with all modifiers being cumulative.

Have I made my universe too dangerous? If so, what are your opinions on changing the die rolls to get a more accurate Pirate Threat. My original intent was to avoid making the campaign too boring, of course!

Sean: I am aware of the modifying factors you have mentioned, but haven't developed additional die roll modifiers since it seemed that the pirate threat was already pretty high. I'm getting the idea that I have to lower the base line odds and then add in more modifiers based on the cargo value.

Alot of responders latched onto the fact that the outgoing shipments were grain and ores, but there didn't seem to be any acknowlegement that the reason I was considering placing F-7's on LASH and Ducktail skids was for the return trip when my frieghter would be carrying bases, weapons, ammo, etc.

Michael P: You make a good point on the tactical level, but my campaign abstracts the shipping somewhat. On any given month/turn, my given colony's freighter(s) is either in orbit at the colony, in outgoing transit, docked at an Inner Core Trade Center (I.C.T.C.), or in incoming transit. Travel to the I.C.T.C. is assumed to be a month for ease of play. It's assumed that if the freighter is attacked, it will be at a point well away from any help the Colony or other safe harbor could provide.

Michael C: I did read your vignette about the Weary Donkey. I agree with Steve, you have a flair for fiction. The situation you refer to is the situation that I have: I have a Colony owned freighter and Colony owned fighters. The overhead cost for these things are being borne by the Colony as a given. If the cargo is valuable enough, shouldn't the Colony have the discretion to take their F-7's and put it on it's freighter, not for an indefinite period, but for one special voyage. The voyage I am specifically contemplating is the return voyage when the freighter is bringing back a base that the Colony is REALLY counting on to increase production/revenue. Collecting on the insurance policy isn't good enough for the Colony is this instance, it needs the base delivered on schedule, and not to end up meeting with an Insurance Adjuster.

Steve P and Michael P: I haven't gotten R11 yet, so I can't comment on it specifically. I'm not looking to use specialized fighter skids to service drone using fighters. I agree with Steve Cole insofar as I don't want to have to pay Longshoremen fees all the time, and have colony defense units riding shotgun for my freighter(s) all the time, regardless of the cargo. I want to temporarily use phaser armed fighters to replace the HTS's to provide extra protection to a priority shipment. I don't want to have to buy new or specialized defenses to protect my freighter(s), I want to use fighter defenses that I already have on hand---specifically due to those bottom line of the ledger reasons that Steve Cole has referred to. The FEV is a GREAT convoy escort for civilian use. I'm actually looking for a way to avoid the expense of operating one of those, since, as has been fleshed out in some detail, not every shipment needs such protection.

Steve Cole: I know you are a really busy guy, and I really appreciate your taking the time to talk to me about this. It was never my intention to annoy you or make you cross. I apologize for not having made myself clear enough the first time. The reason I said my situation was "exceptional" was because 1) the freighter is owned by the colony and exists not as a source of revenue but to ensure that transport will be reliable and available when the colony needs to ship it's exports to market. The freighter is not out hustling for hauling contracts; it is exclusively devoted to the colony's trading, and has loads of exports waiting for it without downtime from the Colony. The freighter isn't supposed to be any more costly than paying for shipping and insurance (or at least not too much so), but the colony doesn't look at the freighter to contribute to the bottom line like a shipping company would. 2) The fighters are also already owned and being paid for by the colony. Their cost will be borne whether or not they are sitting in their ground base, or in the freighter's skids. 3)The assignment of the fighters to the skids is not supposed to be permanent, but for special shipments only. Other than increased Longshoremen fees, I don't see the specific reason why I "can't afford to do it", and your simple diktat to that effect does not explain to me what these unbearable costs are. What, exactly, are these costs that I haven't already mentioned and accounted for? The cost of running both the frieghter and the fighters are going to borne by the colony regardless of where the fighters are deployed. The lack of the normal HTS shuttles will mean increased longshoremen fees. What else is there?

Perhaps you are right in that "exceptional" isn't the right word. Certainly, it isn't exceptional that a colony would be bearing the cost already of having fighters on ground bases. But it is only the fairly well developed colony that can afford to run it's own freighter.

Whether or not it's worth the while to the Colony to temporarily assign phaser armed fighters to the LASH and Ductail skids really comes back to how dangerous the universe is vis-a-vis pirate activity. Let me ask a few innocent questions in this regard:

1) Is Master Jeppe and the Diamond Jack indicative of average pirate activity? (CL 34)

2) Isn't the Diamond Jack's relationship with the Klingons just another example of how pirates get inside information on shipping?

3) Isn't the only thing unusual about the Diamond Jack was Jeppe's using his status to do the raiding directly, instead of simply passing the information on to associates while maintaining plausible deniability?

4) Despite his unique access to shipping information, Jeppe and crew are shown to NOT be aware of the cargoes of several ships they come across (page 5, Aug. 20, Y176; page 6, Oct. 18, Y176; page 7, rendevous with Slaver Black Spider; page 14, Feb 9 Y178; page 21, Feb 18, Y178). In fact, isn't it true that NONE of the pirate activity shown of the Diamond Jack involved an instance when her crew knew what the cargo would be????

5)On page 14, Korack notes that the freighter attacked was only hauling "unrefined ore". So much for the conventional wisdom expressed in this thread that pirates will "never" attack a freighter with such low value commodities, eh gentlemen?

6) On page 7 the Police Commandant notes the loss of 16 ships in fourteen months, and that doesn't include the 2 Kzinti freighters Jeppe also bags in the same time period. Is it safe to say that Jeppe is hitting a freighter about once every three weeks? And that he's managing to rack up this total in a War Zone infested with warships with a puny LR?

7) How many ships, on average, would a cartel operate or lease franchises to in a given sector? In other words, how many Jeppes are there in a given sector?

I thank you in advance for any further time and trouble you give to this discussion.


Joe Stevenson: I'd be happy to talk to you about playing F&E.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, June 04, 2008 - 11:57 pm: Edit

sorry, hit return key too fast.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, June 05, 2008 - 12:00 am: Edit

1. There is no such thing as typical in a universe that big. You cannot take one line from a story and extrapolate that every pirate/freighter/klingon does that.

2. Sometimes, sometimes not.

3. Nothing is unusual, nothing is usual.

4. He doesn't know everything.

5. Not every pirate knows what's in every ship.

6. Nothing is safe. Jeppe may not have gotten all of them himself.

7. How big is a sector? Seriously, it depends, and it varies. From 1-20 per F&E hex.

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Thursday, June 05, 2008 - 12:03 am: Edit

John R.

Send me an e-mail to the addres in my profile re: F&E

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, June 05, 2008 - 01:06 am: Edit

John: I think that some sectors get more dangerous than other. In the case of the CL34 story that sector got particularly dangerous for a period. I'm sure that other sectors during the same period saw little to no pirate activity.

I don't think you die roll system make your universe too dangerous. Your universe needs to be as dangerous or safe as it needs to be to keep it interesting and fun.

This is, however, a separate matter from how ships are designed. A single sector having a bad year isn't going to influence ship design much. The problems will be met with available resources that are appropriate to the losses being incurred or resources that are at risk.

There are many steps that freighters and shipping administrators would go through long before you'd see things like civilian freighters carrying fighters. Cargo that could cover the overhead of fighters wouldn't be put on a simple freighter (in large quantity anyway).

However, these questions and the various comments do suggest that there might be a good article on shipping security management to be done. This seems to be an area where the influence of other science fiction universes filters into the minds of SFU players and lead to misconceptions. I know I have been affected in the way, from time to time. My one saving grace is that the SFU has been my primary source of sci-fi for the last 29 years!

Hey, next year is the SFUs 30th anniversary!

By Sean O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Thursday, June 05, 2008 - 05:38 am: Edit

If the fighters aren't armed with drones, why not just use admin shuttles instead? Not as good as a fighter, but doesn't run into rules issues. Or the colony can spring for a Prime Corvette (Captain's Log, forget which one. #35 or #34 IIRC) to escort the freighter. There are probably security companies which will hire out as convoy escorts for critical cargoes. If the colony doesn't want to buy one to help control its local space anyway.

As a practical matter, one of the best solutions to the security problem may simply be to break up the shipments of critical materials into several trips or on several freighters. If one shipment gets intercepted, you don't lose the whole lot.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, June 05, 2008 - 11:07 am: Edit

There are probably security companies which will hire out as convoy escorts for critical cargoes.

Or just hire the local Pirate since he has expenses too and combat costs a lot of money. Why not just earn your money the easy way?

"Look, it's either him or I hire some company from the core. If he takes the job he know it's easier because he's already eliminated half the treat."

"But sir, how do you know he won't he won't betray us? Or run if something bigger comes up?"

"Well, if something big does come up he probably will run. He won't fight for a hopeless cause. But then, in that case, we're doomed anyway. If he betrays us... well, he can do that once, but it'll ruin his career. We will broadcast everywhere that he renigs on his contracts and that will be very bad for his future dealing with others. No, he runs a starship so he's no idiot. We just don't want to hire him on the day he's planning to retire."

"I still feel safer using DMS."

"Yeah? Have a look... Dark Matter's bid. Total security 26/7... or nothin'."

"So what do we have to pay our Pirate?"

"Per job, three days notice, basic warp-day fee's plus 5%."

"Five percent!!?"

"Hey, we make up for it by only hiring him for the best runs. The way I figure it we will save more than fifty percent over our current losses. If we're careful, we can save enven more."

"How's that?"

"We divide up some of our high value goods and put them in our shield system jeffrees."

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, June 05, 2008 - 11:19 am: Edit

NOTE: the CVE skid still has to be "rented" or owned by someone.

I posited that there is a stockpile of these to rent for these special cargos. And SVC said "no."

However, you CAN put some F7 into shuttle spaces (IIRC it is specifically allowed), BUT F7 are about useless against a pirate as they can't keep the raider from getting to range 5 or so and blasting you with Phaser ones. For that you really need seekers or KILLER DF fighters (like stingers). And for that you need ready racks. I wanted Zorans (for the Phaser 2s and drones and SVC said "HECK NO!"

And thats that.

My story about " Q'Lever" is apparent;y gone into file.

By John R. Poirier, Esq (Joisey) on Thursday, June 05, 2008 - 10:02 pm: Edit

I just noticed that R1.69B specifically allows for large freighters to operate F-7 fighters from it's ducktail. Silly me!

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Sunday, June 21, 2009 - 07:45 am: Edit

I spent more time looking for this thread.

Not that I didn't remember writing the silly story, I was just wanting to relive the unbelieveable amount of goofy Oz jokes MJC let me get away with.

Salutes to Oz!