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OK, trying to bring the discussion back to Seltorian-specific implications of buzzsaw versus wedding cake...


In my 12:07 AM post from 06 May, I claimed the wedding cake is a more efficient configuration for maximizing Tholian phaser firepower because the outermost leg of each strand of a 2-strand, 30-hex buzzsaw is six hexes from the base, rather than the five hexes for the outermost ring of a wedding cake. So it provides better protection for Seltorian ships bombarding the web with their web breakers.

But that applies to the phaser-IVs on the base. Tholian ships (and PFs and fighters) can maneuver to other locations within the web, to achieve good firing positions. Nevertheless, I claim the wedding cake is also a better configuration for maximizing the phaser fire from the Tholian ships.

Let's go back to the hypothetical bombardment of the outer ring from 5 hexes. Tholian ships can fire from the open ring between the middle and outer web rings in complete safety (assuming the Selts are not ready to place units in the web yet). The distance to the Selt ships will be 6 hexes and the Tholians will inflict 2¹/₆ damage per phaser-I (assuming no EW shift).

But if the Selts are attacking the outer leg of a buzzsaw from the same 5 hex range, Tholian ships shooting at them from just behind that outer leg can be targeted by Selt PFs or fighters sitting of to the side and firing down the channel between the strand that is "open to space". PFs and fighters are ideal for this latter role because they are attrition units, inexpensive to replace, and because they have no web breakers and thus their loss doesn't reduce web breaker fire. The Tholian ships/PFs/fighters are left with the dilemma of either firing from immediately behind the outermost leg (where they are just as effective as they would be firing from just behind the outer ring of a wedding cake, but not more so) while being exposed to fire from Selt PFs and fighters; or else firing from a more protected position where they are safe from Selt fire but are also doing less damage to the Selt web breaker ships.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Saturday, May 16, 2026 - 10:43 am: Edit

Alan, since your last post was on Feb, 26, I was beginning to worry about your health or physical well being. I didn't read everything since my last post yet, and need to catch up. Give me time. Our discussion didn't wind to a halt. You were unavailable for over two months.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Saturday, May 16, 2026 - 08:18 pm: Edit

I am trying to figure out if the Seltorians could knock down a 30-hex web and if so, how many web breakers would they need to do so.

The example in the rule book,

EXAMPLE-FIXED WEB: A Seltorian squadron is supporting a
Klingon attack on a Tholian BATS. The BATS has the usual three
tiered “wedding cake” web, and the outer web (five hexes from the
base, total length 30 hexes) has a strength of twenty (for a total of
600 aggregate strength points). The Seltorian squadron consists of a
CA, a DD, and two FFs, with a total of five web breakers. All ships
have positioned themselves eight hexes from the base (taking
advantage of the fall-off in the phaser-4 table), i.e., three hexes from
the web. All of the ships fire, with die rolls of one, two, four, five, and
six. These produce eighteen, sixteen, twelve, ten, and eight web
damage points, respectively, for a total of 64. This reduces the web’s
net strength total from 600 to 536, and the strength of the web is
reduced from twenty to seventeen. (This assumes that the Tholians
do not add more power to counteract the loss. Even so, if the
Tholians cannot add about 32 points of energy to the web each turn,
the web will eventually collapse.)

each turn the Thoilians must add 15 (.50 for reduction) plus the amount of reduction caused by the webbreakers. on a 30-hex web. As well as the points to maintain the rest of the web.
\
In your above post it was around 48 power for the base. plus, what ships the Thoilians have to reimnforce the web.

The Selts would have 700bpv of ships just from the web and base. (rough count) That is 5 HC, that is 10 WB. At range 5 (5per min to 15 max) so 80-90 per turn. More I am sure adding in the minefields and Ships.

If they take down 1 strand of a 2 strand buzzsaw. The base is toast. The wedding cake still has the second ring in the way.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Sunday, May 17, 2026 - 11:24 am: Edit

Gregory, the outer web of a wedding cake has 30 hexes, and at a strength of 35 has 1050 ASP for the Selts to knock down. The middle ring has 18 hexes for an ASP of only 630 max, and the inner ring has a max ASP of 210. If the Selts can knock down 1050 ASP, 630 and 210 are much easier.

You may want to review the Seltorian economy and OOB in the F&E section to understand how much they can build, and what they can build. They build 1 CL for each CA, and both have 2 WBs. (I think your HC above is meant to be CA. If not, I'm not sure what you meant.)

Also keep in mind that the Tholian Holdfast before the war has 5 BATSs and 3 SBs, and when the Selts arrive Operation Nutcracker had been going on. The likelihood of the Selts assaulting a SB is very real.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Sunday, May 17, 2026 - 12:45 pm: Edit

John
Yes, I did mean CA no HC.


The outer web of the Wedding cake is 30 hexes. The strands of the buzzsaw are 30 hexes. If you take down the outer web of the wedding cake. You can jump into the middle ring. The base still is protected by the inner ring. Yes, they are smaller but you still need to weaken the second ring to get to the base.

A two strand buzzsaw. Once one strand is down. You can stick into the other strand near the base and blow it to hell.

The OOB and more important becomes CMD ratings. The number of ships that can be brought to a battle. A fleet of BCH 9CMD rating. Scout battle group (6ships counts as 5) battle line 4 more ships. Around 1400BPV. (maybe 16)

In the Milky way. The Selts have a max CMD rating of 9. A BTS is over 200BPV a Starbase is over 600BPV. Plus 600 or so for the web. The base has a CMD rating of 9 BTS or 10 SB. The Tholians will have a significant higher BPV then the Selts let alone anyone else can bring to bear.

SG8.0 Assault on a Starbase as the base alone vs a fleet. Add any kind of defending ships. Let alone webs and a minefield. looking at over 900 closer t0 1000BPV just for a SB web and mines.

Such a battle would have to be done as a campaign type were the Selts would attack with a fleet. Withdraw damaged ships between rounds and bring in new ones to replace losses.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Monday, May 18, 2026 - 11:18 am: Edit

Gregory, whether the webs are a buzzsaw or wedding cake, if the Selts can knock down a strand or the outer ring, the battle is mostly decided. In the case of a buzzsaw, the ability of the Tholians to power the web is increased due to the base's ability to help.

Command ratings are important, but not more so than the ships available. The Selt fleet is mostly made up of small hulls, and their economy isn't enough to overwhelm the Tholians outright.

I agree that these situations would need to be handled in a campaign setting, but more of a mini-campaign setting. Any attacker would want to minimize the defender's ability to make more defensive preparations.

It's been a while, but I have been working on such a mini-campaign.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Tuesday, May 19, 2026 - 06:28 pm: Edit

John

In the case of knocking down 1 strand of the buzzsaw. It leaves the base open to an attack by entering the web close to the base and firing on the base. The outer ring goes down of a wedding cake. You still have to knock down are weaken the middle ring to a point to get thru it. This means a few more turns of phaser IV fire from the base.

The BPV and command rating. Most battles people play outside a campaign game. Is equal BPV battles. In most cases limiting the forces to so many ships. With command ratings no matter how many BPV allowed You can only have so many ships.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Tuesday, May 19, 2026 - 11:05 pm: Edit

Gregory

With a base, presumably with a HPM helping to power the strands, knocking down that strand may not be possible or will at least be much more difficult. The turns under the P-4s may be a wash. It will depend on the forces of both sides.

How people tend to play isn't often indicative of what could "realistically" be expected. DN against DN, or any other setup is more reflective of The Masters.

Even when playing publishes scenarios, SFB is most often played without considering any past or future, and players often get unrealistically brutal in their tactics. Although that is fun to have games like that, some of us like to have games more anchored in canon. If you go for broke in this battle you may win, but you'll be exhausted for the next battle.

There are different flavors of fun in NOT playing with the absolute best forces and playing more into the spirit of the game instead of the absolute letter of the rulebook lacking all consideration into why something is the way it is. Many play either without looking at the bigger picture, or without caring.

An example of the spirit of the game is the BPV of asteroid anchors. Both published scenarios with webs around bases or planets written by ADB have asteroid anchors. None of the published player submitted scenarios that have web rings have anchors. That tells me that ADB intended that web rings have asteroids as anchors. In SH6.0, the Tholian BS is surrounded by 3 web rings with each ring having 6 asteroid anchors. A 120 BPV base station is surrounded by 450 BPV worth of rocks that are essentially useless for the scenario. Why is that? The scenario would play out no differently if the asteroids were absent. Why are they there? Unless corrected by ADB, they are there because of some unstated reason that requires them to be there. I believe it is because the as yet undefined web anchor buoys need a place to be mounted to operate. It makes sense, enough so that I submitted a proposal for their improved definition. I put this in SFB Proposals Board: New Rules: (G) New Systems: A proposal for generator buoys and anchor asteroids for more detail without repeating it here. For what it's worth, the player submitted scenarios wouldn't play differently if anchors were added.

Examples of people missing the big picture are Jessica Orsini and Alan Trevor. In a discussion about the WB-10, Jessica said that she'd prefer 3 D7s to the WB-10. Yeah, if you're dueling. But as you pointed out with command ratings you only have so many ships, and the WB-10 allows the largest fleet and brings incredible firepower. Jessica was thinking as a dueler and not as a fleet commander. She was forgiven when she admitted she doesn't play F&E. Alan misses the big picture, among other times, when he states that globular webs are better than anchored webs. There is nothing that can be done with globular webs that cannot be done with anchored webs. The converse is not true. Anchored webs offer options not available to globular webs, and are objectively better than globular webs. The question is whether they are worth the BPV cost of the rocks, and I'll grant that they are not unless there are other considerations.

Those other considerations include having webs up at all and the ability to have more ships on patrol. There are others. Buoys allow webs to be up but at strength 0 when not needed. Imagine needing to spin new webs every time the Klinks made a faint. Also, look at the energy requirement of keeping webs from dissolving. Webs dissolve after 224 impulses at strength 0. Even if the Tholians bumped them up to strength 1 before 7 turns is up, the energy requirement is enormous. It has been repeatedly established that 1 turn equals 1/30th of a second. There are 86,400 seconds in a Terran day, unless you get pedantic and use the sidereal value. In Y175+, the web requires 1/2 of a unit of power per hex to strengthen, so 27 units of power added each 7 turns. Unless I did my math wrong, that is 9,997,715 units of energy each day to keep the webs from dissolving, but that is what I get from (86,400 x 30 x 27)/ 7. Spinning new is cheaper, if slower.

Alright, I've spent enough time on this soapbox. If you have any questions, ask.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Wednesday, May 20, 2026 - 06:48 pm: Edit

John

I was wondering the same thing could a Selt force have enough web breakers. To take down a web. With a base and ships to reinforce the web. Sometimes the Math is hard. Then there are other factors. Arming the phasers on the base and ship. EW for base and ship, As well as housekeeping.

You talked about the power cost to keep the webs active. I agree it just is not practical to keep the webs up for long periods.

I think that webs (minefields) are there to slow down the attacker. To prevent the attacker from rushing in and destroying the base. Giving time for the mobile forces to gather and drive off the invaders.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Thursday, May 21, 2026 - 02:24 am: Edit

Gregory, I agree on all points.

Additionally, the defender fights with what he has available. The attacker fights with what he can bring. That last point is where (S8.3) and the OOB comes into play.

Did you look at the buoy proposal?

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Thursday, May 21, 2026 - 06:15 pm: Edit

Yes on the buoy not sure if it would fly butt

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Saturday, May 23, 2026 - 02:14 pm: Edit

I'm not sure either, but I think it is worth a try. It would neaten up a some issues if accepted.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Wednesday, May 27, 2026 - 02:31 pm: Edit

Alan, I've looked over your method of entering a buzzsaw using timing and the SoP. It's valid. My main question is exactly when would it be employed? If the Seltorians had enough web breakers to take down a strand, they would do so at a distance far enough from the base to minimize return fire effects, and close enough to the web that the web breakers still would have the ability to overwhelm the Tholians' ability to recharge the web. So, we're not talking about a 10 ship Seltorian fleet with 12 or more web breakers available. It's more likely that the attacking fleet is a mix of Seltorian and Coalition forces. There would be enough WB ships to get to that 91 point threshold, and then the rest would be Coalition ships doing the grunt work with or without the Seltorians entering the web. Web breakers are at a premium which makes every drone hit to a Seltorian ship something that can botch the tactic. Additionally, I'm sure the Tholians will be using the Mizia effect to maximize the impact of their fire taking out as many weapons and power boxes as possible from the intruders. The make up of the ships in the web will determine the priority targets for the Tholians. When feasible, Selt FFs would be priority targets due to the minimal number of hits required to hit its WB.

I'm not sure who is saying that the same tactic would be used against a wedding cake. This method isn't appropriate for a wedding cake any more than onion peeling is appropriate for a buzzsaw. Apples and oranges.

It takes fewer rounds of WB shots to drop an outer web ring than it does a buzzsaw strand, or the Selt ships will have to approach much closer to a web strand, partially or fully negating your phaser efficiency argument. They may have to approach closer, and for more WB firing runs.

One thing I am concerned about is the reliance on X-ships in addition to the PFs. I understand it is for the ability of every unit to accelerate to 31 on the turn after they dive into the web. One issue I see is that an X-cruiser costs more than a BATS. If you pull out a victory, it will be a pyrrhic one at best on a strategic level while losing the battle IAW (S2.2).

It's more likely that this tactic would utilize some or only non-X warships entering the web, giving the Tholians just one more close range phaser volley, or splitting their fire between ships and PFs if the PFs pull ahead. That still gives the Tholians two or three turns to throw a wrench into the works of the plan. One turn is before the units enter the strand, the next is while they are toughing out the 31 impulses they are stuck in the web; a time during which they have little shield reinforcement. Then, if enough WBs and propulsion boxes survive they may exit one strand and enter the next.

You already admitted that it will be a bloody affair, so I'm giving you full credit for that. It just seems to me that with so many very close range phaser firing opportunities, along with other considerations, that the Tholians will come up on the plus side of this equation. It's more likely that there will be several wrecks that will be inside the web unable to fight back while the Tholians administer phaser volleys 4 through however many are necessary to severely cripple those ships. The tactic is mathematically possible, but likely a statistical improbability for success that results in ships being captured by the Tholians. Also, in a mini-campaign situation, every ship crippled and left uncaptured is still under the command rating of the command ship of future rounds of combat. The rules about friendly fire and self destruction, if used correctly by the Tholians, will heavily burden the attacking fleet.

This tactic doesn't show the superiority of wedding cakes above buzzsaws. It's just a tactic.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, May 28, 2026 - 02:55 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

My main question is exactly when would it be employed? If the Seltorians had enough web breakers to take down a strand, they would do so at a distance far enough from the base to minimize return fire effects, and close enough to the web that the web breakers still would have the ability to overwhelm the Tholians' ability to recharge the web.

---

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Thursday, May 28, 2026 - 03:38 pm: Edit

Alan, if you didn't disagree, the conversation wouldn't be enjoyable. Additionally, if we both always agreed, one of us would be unnecessarily redundant.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, June 01, 2026 - 11:33 pm: Edit

Regrettably, I didn't get around (yet) to following up on my 2:55 PM post from 28 May. I still intend to, just not sure when.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Tuesday, June 02, 2026 - 09:42 am: Edit

Things happen.

I've been spending time coming up with situations in which the tactic could work. They aren't many, nor foolproof.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, June 05, 2026 - 11:39 pm: Edit

OK, some responses to John Christiansen's 2:31 PM post from 27 May.

John, you remark;

---

Quote:

So, we're not talking about a 10 ship Seltorian fleet with 12 or more web breakers available. It's more likely that the attacking fleet is a mix of Seltorian and Coalition forces.

---

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Saturday, June 06, 2026 - 02:25 pm: Edit

Alan, my comment was about your tactic for attacking a buzzsaw using the SoP to get ships in fast, and when that tactic would be used. Somewhere and somehow there was a disconnect in communication.

My overall point is that if the Seltorians had 12-14 WBs available against a buzzsaw, they could try to drop an entire strand without deliberately entering a full strength web. The available The amount of Tholian forces would affect the attack strategy. If the Seltorian player determined that there were insufficient WBs to drop a strand, your tactic could be used, but instead of being 5 hexes away, they would be much closer and wouldn't be likely to keep ships out of the web to extract cripples. Your tactic is a "Go for broke" hail Mary attack.

If the Seltorians had 12-14 WBs against a wedding cake, the power required from the Tholian ships would be greater, possibly requiring the Tholian player to choose between charging phasers and web charging. This decision is also put to the buzzsaw defender, but the threshold to withhold phaser energy in favor of web charging is much higher.

Your tactic would only be employed when dropping a strand is unfeasible. Against a wedding cake, if dropping a ring were unfeasible, onion peeling could be employed.

A possible, and hopefully plausible, scenario for your tactic to be used would be one in which the destruction of the Tholian base is paramount. In that case, the attacker's taking the inevitable casualties could be tolerated by necessity. The attacker may lose most or all of his ships and still claim victory. The Tholians might lose just the base and annihilate the attacking forces while losing. Just because the base goes down doesn't mean the scenario is over, and doesn't mean the webs dissolve.

If the attacker is a split force with Klingon/Romulan ships as well as Seltorian ships (I'm thinking of the strategic purpose of the attack as being one of opening or keeping open the lines of communications open between the Klinks and Roms), then eight WBs is reasonable. This would be a good use for your CAW and CLW, so that the number of galactic ships is maximized within the command ship's command rating.

The threshold for your tactic to work is 91 ASP deducted from the web as the ships are ready to move. On average, eight WBs will need to be four hexes from the web to do this, and average is the operative word. Less than 91 ASP reduction keeps the ships stuck and close to Tholian fire. 7 WBs requires a range of 3 on average. The average isn't a guarantee. Less than a 91 ASP is useless, and more doesn't add any benefit to the tactic.

In this situation above, the Tholians may concentrate fire on a single Seltorian ship hoping for drone hits. Each one matters. If the number of WBs drops to five, the Selt player had better be at range one and be good at Yahtzee. At four WBs, fuggedaboutit.

Your tactic is a gamble to be used when the resource of WBs is low. If WBs are plentiful enough that the Tholian player doubts his ability to knock out enough to prevent the stuck ships from moving, then the target of his fire will be on the ships that may move in order to hit his warp engines to lower the target's ability to escape the web. The attacker might advance with enough ships to destroy the base. Might. It is a gamble of desperation.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Saturday, June 06, 2026 - 08:00 pm: Edit

I am trying to set up a base in a web both 3 ring and 2 strand buzzsaw.

A buzzsaw each strand is 30 hexes long. At strength 35 that is 1,050 aggregate strength points. At end of turn it will lose 30 aggregate points. However, we are talking year y180 something. That means it only loses 15 points.

If the web is strength 35 and has 1,050 points -15 +15 added. back to 1050 /15 gives a web strength of 70? If the web was at 35 in Y180+ then it would only need 525 aggregate points. 525 /15 being 35

For a 30-hex web at 35 needs 15 points of maintenance per turn? In Y180+ Now if there is only 525 points in the web. and it is hit for 60 WB damage. Then it is 525-60 that imp (465) plus energy added to the web, Say the 15-maintenance power. 465+15 480. end of turn the web loses 15 power so is at 465 / 15 web drops to 31.

The Tholians would need to add 75 points to bring it back up to full, Offsetting Degradation. Then there would be another turn of WB as well. If I am right, then the web will drop down to a level low enough to get thru soon.

Please I am sure my math is all screwed up somehow.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, June 06, 2026 - 09:01 pm: Edit

Gregory,

I think it will be less confusing if you keep the distinction between reinforcing energy and web strength points clear.

You have a length-30, strength-35 web. It has 1050 strength points, regardless of year. At the end of the turn, it loses 30 strength points (again, regardless of year) and now has 1020 strength points, giving a web strength of 34, for a 30-hex web. On turn 2, the Tholians want to add energy to bring the web back to full strength.

Suppose the year is Y-167. Then the efficiency of the added reinforcing energy is increased by 50%. So if the Tholians add 20 energy points to the web, that converts to 30 strength points and the web as a whole again contains 1050 strength points, divided among 30 hexes for a web strength of 35. In Y-157, The Tholians would have needed 30 energy to regain those 30 strength. In Y-177 the efficiency "multiplier" is 2 so the Tholians would only need to add 15 energy to regain the 30 strength points and return the web as a whole to strength 35. The energy required changes with the year because the energy is converted to strength at a different rate. But strength-35 is as strong as any web can ever be and since a web has a maximum length of 35, it can never contain more than 1050 strength points. The issue is how much energy the Tholian ships have to provide to create those strength points.

Does that help?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, June 06, 2026 - 09:21 pm: Edit

John,

---

Quote:

Your tactic is a "Go for broke" hail Mary attack.

---

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Saturday, June 06, 2026 - 10:22 pm: Edit

No it does not help. According to what I am reading in the rules. If a 30-hex web has 1050 aggregate strength points. The formula is add any reinforcement points and then subtract any degradation. This works fine.

However, (G10.322) The Tholians made another breakthrough in Y175. Starting
with that year, the strength of the web is double that calculated in
(G10.31), ignoring any fractions after doubling.

So, if I follow G10.31 and I have 1,050 aggregate strength points + reinforcement - degradation. After y180 15 points added and 15 removed. 1,150 strength points is 35 doubled. Gives web 70.

Now what you are saying I think Is to do it without any upgrades. Then only convert the energy added?

(G10.42) PROCEDURAL EXAMPLE: At the start of Turn #6, a web
that is twelve hexes long has 97 aggregate strength points, resulting
in a strength of eight (points per hex). During this turn, ships add a
total of 27 points of energy to the web, giving it an aggregate strength
of 124. During the turn, the web was extended two hexes (now
fourteen hexes long). At the end of the turn, the web lost one strength
point for each hex of length, or fourteen energy points, giving it an
aggregate strength of 110, which is divided over fourteen hexes to
result in an effective strength of 7.857 which is considered to be
seven. [In Y175, the web would have lost only seven points rather
than fourteen and the result of 8.36 would have yielded sixteen points
of web strength as fractions are ignored (G10.32).]

97 +27 = 124. Web extended so 14 webs, -14 110 points in the 14 point web.

(97+27)-7= 117. 117/7 =16.71

that math adds up.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Saturday, June 06, 2026 - 10:22 pm: Edit

No it does not help. According to what I am reading in the rules. If a 30-hex web has 1050 aggregate strength points. The formula is add any reinforcement points and then subtract any degradation. This works fine.

However, (G10.322) The Tholians made another breakthrough in Y175. Starting
with that year, the strength of the web is double that calculated in
(G10.31), ignoring any fractions after doubling.

So, if I follow G10.31 and I have 1,050 aggregate strength points + reinforcement - degradation. After y180 15 points added and 15 removed. 1,150 strength points is 35 doubled. Gives web 70.

Now what you are saying I think Is to do it without any upgrades. Then only convert the energy added?

(G10.42) PROCEDURAL EXAMPLE: At the start of Turn #6, a web
that is twelve hexes long has 97 aggregate strength points, resulting
in a strength of eight (points per hex). During this turn, ships add a
total of 27 points of energy to the web, giving it an aggregate strength
of 124. During the turn, the web was extended two hexes (now
fourteen hexes long). At the end of the turn, the web lost one strength
point for each hex of length, or fourteen energy points, giving it an
aggregate strength of 110, which is divided over fourteen hexes to
result in an effective strength of 7.857 which is considered to be
seven. [In Y175, the web would have lost only seven points rather
than fourteen and the result of 8.36 would have yielded sixteen points
of web strength as fractions are ignored (G10.32).]

97 +27 = 124. Web extended so 14 webs, -14 110 points in the 14 point web.

(97+27)-7= 117. 117/7 =16.71

that math adds up.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Saturday, June 06, 2026 - 10:32 pm: Edit

OK, let's get a decent look at the various numbers being used -

The outer web will need 15 power per turn,. the middle web needs 9 (ignoring the inner web as the base covers it's cost [initially]).

The 8 WB does 80 (on average) to the web, requiring 40 power.

Each PF-Pinwheel provides 48 power (plus 6 battery) minus housekeeping (believe the web does require AFC for one plus one for shields [may be adjustable]) plus two phasers per PF (6) dropping power available to 38 for each PF-pinwheel (76 total) [a phaser PF drops by two per for additional phasers]. Note, the PFs have to be in pinwheeled as only two are usually the web variant (dropping the power down to 32 instead 96).

A PC has 14 power (and 2 battery) but larger housekeeping (2.5) plus 4 phasers leaving 7.5 per PC (22.5 for pinwheel) [+ 6 battery].

So the Tholians have enough power to cover the average (and maximum) damage the Seltorians can do (98 for 80 WB [max 120] and 48 end of turn loses) …

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Sunday, June 07, 2026 - 12:38 am: Edit

Alan, a "Hail Mary" tactic is simply one that would not be used regularly. I wasn't meaning to belittle the tactic, rather to point out that it wouldn't be an early choice. I even came up with a scenario in which its use would be warranted.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Sunday, June 07, 2026 - 12:43 am: Edit

Greg, (G10.3), (G10.321), and (G10.322) could benefit from rewrites.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Sunday, June 07, 2026 - 03:56 pm: Edit

8 WB is a bit light.

The Tholians are paying 690 BPV for a 2 strand buzzsaw with asteroids at WS=2. 2 minefield packages cost 50 each. (100 BPV) 800 BPV for the web alone. A BATS is 200BPV, HPM 57BPV and a PFM is 12BPV. PF flotilla 4 Ar-PW 152BPV, Ar-L 50BPV and scout 50BPV. This brings You to 1,221 BPV. With no other defending ships.

The wedding cake can save you 200bpv or so from cheaper web setup.

A Seltorian Battle group of 3CL and 3DD 666BPV. 9 WEB breakers. HC costs 142BPV 426BPV for 3. 1,092 BPV 15 Web Breakers. Leaving points for a scout and COs.

The Buzzsaw will put the PF-Pinwheel deep in the web. The Wedding cake must have at least 1 in-between the second and outer web.

Onion Peeling to take out the PF-pinwheel a must do in the wedding cake. The Pinwheel cannot move just rotate.

Higher BPVs would hurt the Seltorians as their CR is at best an 8.

But would even 15 be enough? In the home galaxy they had Battle wagons with 14 Web breakers... OUCH