Now a few points. First of all while I liked the tech of the general war, the war itself was a bit limiting.
I liked the setting ofhte old X2 trade wars, but found the reasoning rather hard to justify, and a bit Dues Ex Machina.
So, this started from the idea that instead of vast empires butting up against each other, we still have really, really big neutral zones and uncontrolled regions during most of the Alpha Quadrants history. I am considering this for Stellar Shadows submitting, and I was wondering if people would look at it.
A few other things not mentioned yet.
1. Less drone slosh-- the feds do not use drones, save as fighter based weapons.
2. I need to come up with somethign that can keep the long legged cruisers of the major powers from simply getting dogpiled by fighters when they show up. I think the strategic justification for the rarity of fighters in the major fleets is there, but there has to be a tactical rational on how you can avoid getting swamped by them.

So, with no further talk:

SFB: Steller shadows, The Stellar main:

In the “real” SFB universe, the dominating force was the major star empire—even such groups as the orion pirates were little more than an irritant to the major powers. But in this setting, everything changed, and it all originated with a decision made by the Tholian assembly…

The Tholians:
The Tholian refugees arriving with the Dyson sphere included several units of the Tholian Will navy, as well as a number of police ships. More importantly, among these naval officers were several officers who were quite capable in engineering, and while they could not recreate the facilities needed to build Neo-tholian ships, they learned how to adapt the corvette hulls, welding them together into larger ships quite early on, in fact within a decade of their first arrival in the galaxy, for the C hull, and their D hull was mastered a decade later.
Yet even that would not allow them to remake the Will—the Tholian population base was far too low, and in the end, they would once again be spread thinly, vulnerable to the kind of revolution that destroyed their power in the Old Galaxy—the Tholians were not about to assume that nobody else would make the discovery of the Seltorians.
Extermination was also not an option—their numbers were too small and if they were being followed by the seltorians, they could do little more to make their position plain.
Yet the Will faced another danger—here were empires—small, primitive, to be sure, but eventually they would grow into larger nations, ones which could potentially destroy the Holdfest, through wight of numbers if nothing else.
Unless they were kept from becoming so large.
The plan arrived at by the strategic planners in the Holdfest was simple, but difficult in execution—rather than waiting for empires to rise and dealing with whoever won, the Tholians’ would prevent any one power from gaining the might to challenge their existence. They could not risk united the galaxy against them, so they could not launch attackson the core areas of the various empires, unless they could be assured of destroying them entirely, and as they could not, no empire could be so targeted. In addition, allowing empires to be destroyed by their neighbors would merely aid in the rise of a few, very powerful empires, so no empire could be so weakened that it would completely collapse.
The solution was to use the Holdfest fleet, itself far more powerful than any extant galactic force, and more importantly, far more strategically mobile, to prevent empires from spreading beyond their core areas, and foster the development of numersous small polities.
Eventually, the holdfest would be safeguarded by the existence of dozens of smaller polities, each one too small to endanger the Tholians, each one jealous of its own independence, and each one serving as a buffer between the major powers. Ideally, the galaxy would be harmless to the Tholians, yet also be able to put up resistance to any potential Seltorian incursion.

By Y90, the first major Tholian offensive was ready, focused on the Klingon Empire, to provide them with local security—and to iron out any kinks in their strategy. The Tholians, in this case, were not concerned with antagonizing the Klingon’s who could not be antagonized much more than they had been!
The invasion (as the Klingon’s saw it) was nearly irresistible. D3s and D4s proved helpless against the forces of the Tholians, which included the first C hulls produced. By Y93, the expirement had been proven—the Klingon’s had been smashed back to their core areas, many subject races were rising, and their ability to expand outward at any time in the near future, had been rendered impossible.
Over the next Ten years, the Tholians launched similar offensives against the Rumulans, Gorn, Federation and more limited offensives against the Kzinti and Hydran’s both of whom posed less of a threat to the Tholians.
In place of the growing empires, there were now core areas, surrounded by vast regions where no government reigned supreme, full of small colonies, governments, and alliances. While in many cases prosperous, the regions between the major powers wee also known for instability and a good deal of lawlessness.
After their offensive, the Tholians largely retired back into the bounds of the holdfest, comfortably certain they were immune from future attack—the po9litical dynamic they had created insured that—no nation could now afford to allow any other power to gain control of the contested regions, or permit a single, powerful nation to arise in them. On the other hand, the economic value of the trade that could be gained make simple scorched earth policies inadvisable. The major powers concentrated on preventing their enemies from gaining control of the region, and exploiting the maximum amount of economic benefit they could.
Without forward bases, or the effective ability to construct them, the conflicts quickly devolved into various deals with individuals worlds, behind the scenes maneuvering for rights, and the use of commerce raiding and protection. Planets were seldom outright attacked, but commerce raiding, both outright, and under the guise of “policing the spacelanes” was a common method of increasing trade to ones own empire and reducing it to others.
In addition, the more diffuse nature of government within the large uncontrolled zones proved to be very much a happy hunting ground for the Orion pirates, and in some cases, they proved to be the virtual government of the region, until their depredations grew so serious that coalitions formed to drive them out—whereupon they would simply set up shop in other regions. The independent Orion government waxed fat on the wealth that flowed into its coffers, and it was only the continual inter-cartel conflicts, that kept them from becoming a much more powerful force than they were.


Technical developments:

Without the general war, and without any major wars of attrition, but with large areas where there was little or no support infrastructure, the course of alpha sector technology took a rather different path. “Hot Warp” technology, while developed, was primarily applied to the concept of fast cruisers, long ranged, high speed combatants, which were considerably more useful than more powerful, but slower cruisers.
“War combatants”, easier to construct but shorter ranged vessels were not developed or fielded in the alpha sector, as their required levels of logistics support rendered them more or less ineffective, and the slower tempo of conflict (and resultant losses) made their ease of construction less attractive when compared to their disadvantages.
In addition, the lessons of the Tholian conflict stayed with most alpha sector races—fixed defenses were useless, unless mounted in tremendous density. Thus, few “starbases” as such were constructed, most races depending on easier to build (and replace) stations, as well as large, mobile support vessels, which could be easily moved. Omega style small logistics bases were also quite common. The one exception were the major planets, which received defenses to a degree to make any conceivable assault futile.
One advantage of this was that without the vast expenses of wide frontiers, or large fixed defenses, most major nations were actually better off, economically, than their counterparts during the General War, which permitted a larger budget, per ship, and generally more capable ships to be fielded, although they were not always more effective in terms of pure combat ability.
In addition, the larger R&D budgets, coupled with the emphasis on range and speed, resulted in the earlier development of X-technology, starting around Y178. This would come to be very important during the Andromedan invasion.

Ships:

All ships, save the local defense cruisers and monitors, had to face the fact that they would be traveling long distances, often without convenient fixed support. In addition, the wide areas they would cover often demanded a variety of capabilities not commonly needed in pure warships.
In addition, the vast amounts of territory that had to be covered, and the nature of conflicts, made fleet actions virtually unknown—the kind of thing a captain might involve himself in once in a career, and squadron actions only slightly more common. The “specialist ship”, designed only to be used in concert with a squadron or fleet, was nearly unknown.
Among the drone using races, the greater logistics burdens of drone storage demanded quite extensive magazine spaces, as well as a concentration on drones that would actually achieve hits. As a result, the percentages of “special” drones were far higher among fleet vessels, and several races indulged larger drones that were far more likely to penetrate enemy defenses, rather than swarms of smaller (and more wasteful) drones.
For all races, it was the cruisers that were the undisputed queens of the fleet. Quite often including some modularity, they served as the cornerstones of power projection, as well as serving as the flagships for the rare squadrons. Dreadnoughts and even Battleships existed, but were extremely rare, and quite divergent in design.

Attrition units:

Fighters and even PF’s did exist, but they were considerably different in deployment and usage. The problem was that they provided a tremendous logistics burden, making operations away from bases and supply lines very difficult. Even the Hydrans found their cruiser-carrier designs very difficult to support, in the uncontrolled zones.
For that reason, there were no small carriers—the only carriers built by the major powers were pure carrier designs, carrying large numbers of fighters, and most often stayed close to the national territory of their owning race. A carrier group moving far out beyond the borders was a clear move of great determination—and risk, as a carrier cut off from resupply quickly became helpless.
But fighters were more often used by the various independent planets—a squadron of fighters might be useless at *projecting* power, but were very useful at holding off enemies, and most small worlds and organizations had no need to project power in any case. The Orions also used them, as their operations did not require long term endurance, but rather the maximum amount of firepower to use for raids.
For this reason, most of the major powers were quite willing to sell fighters to worlds, in exchange for trade concessions, and all fighters designs might be found—in some cases, several different racial designs might be mixed in a single polity’s forces. Bombers were also quite common, as they provided a punch to back up fighters, especially for those nations that could not afford bonafide ships.
PF’s were developed in late 182 by the Lyrans, who lost no time in selling the design to other powers (the Emperor of the Lyrans had found himself in some economic difficulty, and exporting the design proved the swiftest method to refill his coffers. Like fighters PF’s were difficult to sustain, but unlike them, they were longer ranged, and could assist a ship in patrols. Casual PF’s were almost never used, but many races eventually constructed PF tenders of various types, both for local security and long range commerce raiding. The heavily armed mothership never gained much acceptance, with most powers agreeing that such a design was a waste of money, and either put the ship where the returning PF’s were vulnerable, thus compromising the mothership concept, or put it far away where the weapons were useless, thus rendering the “heavily armed” component useless. Such “Hermaphrodite” designs were more common among both Orions and some of the smaller states, where having the most powerful unit, regardless of actual use, was often a point of pride.

Conflict and warfare.

The vast majority of conflict was commerce based. Attempts to establish an actual presence in the uncontrolled zones were always stopped, at first by the Tholians, and then later by the efforts of other empires. Most conflicts, in truth were proxy conflicts, where local groups tried to force their home to trade with their supporters, with fleet ships standing by to prevent the other sides ships from interfering.
For the most part this led to quite common, yet oddly ritualized conflict. Losing a cruiser could open a huge hole in patrol patterns, so captains were encouraged to withdraw from battles they couldn’t win. Full scale war could disrupt trade for months, so most “wars” were short, sharp affairs, lasting until one side scored a major victory, after which everyone sat down and hammered out an agreement.
As a result of this, most neighboring powers evolved mechanisms to avoid getting sucked into a major conflict. It was expected that surrenders would be accepted, if offered, and that ships would be exchanged. This did not always hold true, especially between the Kzinti’s and Lyrans, and of course the Paravians and the Gorns, but for the most part, the sort of “to the death” conflicts that characterized all out war were missing. Most importantly, with little real damage being done to the economy, losses could quickly be made up.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 01:46 am: Edit

As an alternative history there is a place for this sort of thing. When the Tholians arrived in our galaxy there was considerable debate on how to proceed and an offensive stance was the initial one (the capturing of the three colonys). I can't go into the history further but everyone knows a defensive policy prevailed.

One of the issues was that the Tholians didn't really know what was out there. While the Klingons might have been technologically inferior at the time there may well have been other races of superior technology. The Tholians knew very little about the Romulans for some time and the Federation would have clobbered them even in Y90 because of the photon.

ANother alternative would be if the Spheres movement system hadn't been so heavilly spend and finished off by the galactic rim energy barrier they would have ventured much further into the galaxy, probably on to the Federations coreward border. The idea is that moving deeper into the galaxy would make them harder to find for the Seltorians (true, they didn't know for sure that the Seltorians were following them but they had to consider the possability since they hunted others to the M82 galaxy).

Had they been able to move further into the galaxy the territory might have been somewhat larger and would have bordered the Federation and Kzinti space (maybe taking up a couple hexes of Kzinti space and mostly residing in modern Federation space (although the Feds hadn't claimed that much of that area in Y89). Kzintis would be their primary enemy and the Klingons might have found a way to ally with them against the Kzin. The Federation would have probably brokered peace with the two races and the Klingons would back off as the swept up under the Federation and took half of modern Romulan space. The GW might have been a single front war.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 06:26 am: Edit

I don't see fighters as a logistical burden. A wet-navy US CVA has a huge range, and can support its fighters for extended periods of time. You simply build the ships to do the job, and a CVS-equivalent would be fine. Indeed, I think it would be logistically easier to take in a single CVS with fighters as opposed to a CA and DD, and the CVS would be much better for any assualt against fighter defences. I even note that most carriers carry spare fighters anyway, and many carriers don't even need to carry munitions for their fighters (Hydrans, some Romulans/Gorns, Tholians).
I will admit that there may be fewer *types* of fighter, and those types will be more geared towards planetary defence (i.e. cheaper, weaker, and more numerous). It's also just possible that one or two races may simply not bother at all - the logistics of setting up fighter production and supply lines was not worth the effort (at least not until it was too late...).

I guess the main reason why there would be few fleet actions is the reduced economy. The Federation would be a 60-80EP nation rather than 212EP, and that will put a crimp on fleet building.

The Romulans would still build maulers for that odd big assault.

Troopships would be if anything *more* common.

Tugs would be rarer. Maybe even limited to just base construction. There would be fewer pod types, maybe just battle and scout (see below). The exception would be the tholians, who would need tugs for long range fleet operations (like the hydran supply tug).

Strong scouts would be extremely rare. Their main application is in fleets (rare) and exploration (would be killed by Tholians). Even the frigate scouts would not be that common. Each race *might* have one/two scout pods for a tug for those rare occasions when a strong scout is required for a fleet.

Drone ships would be at least as common. They would be great for stand-off raids, which will be very useful in a more skirmish-oriented environment. Indeed, I could see a drone-bombardment carrier/scout (CA-class) that sends in its fighters/PFs with the drone wave. It would have at least 1 ship escort, probably another drone ship, and could double very well as a squadron flagship, hanging back as the scout. Its major drawback would be that it wasn't a fast ship.

There would be a new class of long-range ship. More hull, lab, and damcon, similar warp, fewer weapons and other power systems.

The Tholians would have to have some very impressive ranges on their ships - 12-18 F&E hexes would be an almost requirement. They would also have to have attrition units (or tugs to tow cripples), as having a ship crippled while enforcing the balance between two powers way out yonder would be a very bad situation. I suspect that they would have to build a couple of "outposts" - minor/major planets with defences, a fleet (DN/BB-led), and starbases. These would be logistics bases, and would double up as major trade centres (probably for all races, as the Tholians would be the only race with galactic reach).

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 11:07 am: Edit

Loren;

I'm afraid I've got to disagree with you a bit, not about Tholian background, since I'm clearly not qualified to do that. But I do disagree somewhat with your assessment that:

"the Federation would have clobbered them even in Y90 because of the photon."

Most of my EY games have been Tholian versus Klingon, but I have played a couple Tholian versus Federation games. And at least in my experience, the Tholians beat the Feds in the EY, unless the Feds badly out-BPV the Tholians. Granted, two games isn't a huge data-base from which to draw conclusions. And as an important caveat, we almost always play on a floating map, which some players hate. I could see the possibility of the Tholian ships getting "pinned against the wall" and smashed on a fixed map. But the inherent Tholian advantages over EY ships in movement, EW, and phasers seem to me to dominate the "native" Alpha races' advantages in heavy weapons, especially since those heavy weapons can't be overloaded.

I do have to admit that with only two Tholian vs. EY Fed games (one a single-ship duel and the other a small squadron action) it is certainly possible that there is something the Feds could do that we haven't seen yet.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 11:09 am: Edit

Addendum to the previous post:

We did not, by the way, use web casters in either of those games, even though the Tholians did arrive with two NDDs.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 11:31 am: Edit

"unless the Feds badly out-BPV the Tholians"

That is exactly what I meant. On a stratigic level (and that's what's being discussed) the Feds likely are capable of defeating the Tholians on their arival. Of course the only way that would happen is if the Tholians attacked and tried to confine them to their core systems.

Another point to remember is that there is a vast difference in Tholian capabilities when attacking or defending. Attacking the Federation or the Klingons out right would require many more ships than they have and they would be out BPVed in every battle. The Klinogns would suffer more than the Feds for sure. The Tholians are far better at defending than attacking in open space (where they are vulnerable to long ranged mass attacks).

Yes, they conquered a galaxy but what they had there isn't available to them here.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 11:35 am: Edit

Tholians crush Feds in EY. Even in battles with a 2:1 BPV disadvantage, I'd expect the Tholians to win. Photons vs. nimble ships with an EW edge isn't a good combination, not to mention that the Feds, unlike the Klingons, have to hold back a significant portion of their firepower to avoid being overrun by the Tholians.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 11:37 am: Edit

Loren,

OK, I think we're pretty much in agreement then.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 12:04 pm: Edit

Andy;

Well, I think the Tholians beat all their EY opponents, Klingons included, unless they are out-BPV'd.

IIRC (correct me if I'm not recalling correctly) you believe that matching the PC against the D4, the Tholians win with 3-on-3 or less, while the Klingons win larger battles. I'm not sure I buy that, but since I've never played a large EY game (with any race) I don't really have standing to say you're wrong. And I am aware that some technologies do "stack" differently than others, so I have to admit to the possibility that you are right.

But even if you are, the PC is only a 59 point ship. The "BPV match" for the D4 would be the Tholian DD (available towards the end of the EY, I believe Y115). And even with non-overloadable disruptors I wouldn't hesitate to take 5 Tholian DDs (the maximum Tholian fleet size due to CR limits) against 5 Klingon D4s and be confident of a Tholian victory. In fact, I would take those 5 DDs against 6 D4s (a clear Klingon BPV edge, though far below a 2-to-1 ratio) and still bet on the Tholians.

Just my .02 quatloos worth.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 12:49 pm: Edit

Alan. I would take that D4/DD matchup. 10-12 disruptors, even 1 shifted, is 15-18 damage, which is a shield on a DD (2 shifted, it is still half a shield or more). Combined with even ineffectual ph-2 fire, that is internals, which PC based ships can't handle. The Feds, OTOH will be forced to fire at R9-15 with a 2 shift, which results in 0 damage from photons - Feds can't close and get eventually worn down by ph-1s.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 12:55 pm: Edit

I don't think that would be the case if the Feds were on the defensive. The range would have to close. I agree that the Tholians on the defensive are unbeatable but this doesn't hold true when they have to take the ground.

And they cannot confine any of the races with even three times the number of ships they start with.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 01:19 pm: Edit

...Until the great Tholian-ISC alliance, that is.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 01:26 pm: Edit

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 01:56 pm: Edit

Andy, you're mis-remembering the Tholian DD. Those shields are 27.

Against a +1 DRM at 15 hexes, 12 disruptors would average 18 points of damage. 6 D4s have a total of 36 phaser-2s but cannot alpha-strike with more than 24, if combined with the disruptors. 24 ph-2s aginst a +1 average 8 points of damage. So a fleet-level alpha from those 6 Klingons, with average damage, just barely fails to take down an un-reinforced DD shield. The Klingons will sometimes roll above average of course, and can also turn to bring their non-facing phasers to bear. But the superior Tholian maneuverability means those phasers are firing against different shields than the main alpha-strike.

With 10 disruptors against a +1, the Tholian DDs expect to inflict 15 points at R-15. The 20 phaser-1s are another 10 points, making 25 points per turn, assuming both sides are firing against the same +1 DRM. But how realistic is that assumption? Tholian DDs are as nimble as the PCs and get 2 free ECM at R-15. But even assuming the same DRM for both sides, the two sides are doing comparable damage. The Klingon ships are more durable but the Tholian ships have better shields. And speaking of shields, every Tholian shield is 27, while any D4 that exposes any shield other than #1 has reduced protection. And the Klingons can only bring disruptors to bear through 3 different shields, numbers 1,2, and 6. But a Tholian DD can bring all 4 phaser-1s and one of its two disruptors to bear through 5 different shields.

And who says the fight takes place at R-15? Let's jump to R-8 using the same +1 DRM for both sides. Klingons against a +1 are doing 18 with the disruptors and 16 with the ph-2s, assuming a 12 disruptor plus 24 phaser-2 alpha-strike, and they can't guarantee even that, given their phaser-2 arcs and the Tholian maneuverability. But assuming they accomplish this, they inflict 34 damage against a 27 shield. Even the fragile Tholians can accept 7 internals and keep fighting. And if the Klingons can only manage a 12 disruptor plus 12 ph-2 alpha, the best they can actually guarantee getting, they average 26 points at R-8 against a +1 DRM, and just barely fail to score internals.

The Tholians meanwhile score 15 from the disruptors and a whopping 30 from their ph-1s, even against a +1 DRM.

Worst case for the Klingons: the Tholians use their speed/maneuverability to ensure closest approach is range 5. (About the only way the Klingons can prevent this is through the use of drones, and may not be successful even then.) The Klingons are still doing R-8 damage but the Tholians would do about 53 with ph-1s alone, even against +1 drm. At R-5 the phaser-1 just dominates the Klingon weapons.

Sorry, but I still put my money on those 5 DDs against 6 D4s.

By Seth Iniguez (Sutehk) on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 02:02 pm: Edit

I think tholian DDs have like a 27 point shield in all directions, but don't have the SSD handy.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 02:02 pm: Edit

Addendum to previous:

Andy, I will admit that 6 D4s have a better chance against 5 DDs than one D4 against one DD, and not just because of the slightly better numerical odds. I think the Tholian DD will generally not even take any internals in a 1-to-1 duel against a D4, barring some enormous disparity in luck.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 03:13 pm: Edit

Loren. How fast can the Feds turn? The Tholians can overrun outside the FA.

Alan. I'll have to look at the DD SSD for further comment. I have some in mind, but want to check the SSD first.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 03:50 pm: Edit

Huh?

Feds can turn fast enough and there is always the HET. But please remember that I'm talking stratigically here. The Tholians could set up some battle they would surely win but with what they have when they get here they cannot take the Feds to their core worlds, IMO. I don't think they could conquer the Klingons either and for that matter the Feds and Klingons would probably ally and the Tholians would be destroyed, albeit at great cost.

The Tholians ultimately survive because the cost of up rooting them has been too high for too little gain. The gain was increased during the GW because re-establishing the link between the Klingons and Romulans made it so. The Gorns and Kzinti ensured the cost remained too high. As shown in the F&E Origins 2004 campaign the Tholians will fall if they don't maintain this balance in their favor.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 04:01 pm: Edit

Loren. If the Tholians can take space and grow their economy (thereby increasing production), I think they have a legitimate chance. What they take, they'll hold, so time is on their side.

By Charles Gray (Cgray45) on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 04:21 pm: Edit

One of the things with teh Tholian "Invasion" in my setting-- they didn't try to overrun core areas. The idea was to keep the powers from expanding to their full extent, to maintain a balance where no one race had any hope of successfully invading the Holdfest.
As a part of this, they did arrive with more "real" warships, and as I said in the fluff, developed the ability to construct welded hulls a bit earlier. This gratned them a great strategic mobility advantage over EY ships.
The general plan was something a bit like the ISC, only taking advantage of hte fact that the tech disparity was even greater. Go into a fringe (not core) area, smash the base stations, catch fleets in space, and hit them. If the battle started to go poorly, withdraw with your higher speed-- if the enemy has collected so many ships that it's a risk, he's doing your job for you, because those ships are now not policing his other possessions, and as you cut up bases and convoy's, the logistics net will force him back out of the area anyway.
At that point, the "let's you and him fight" comes into play-- if the Klingon's can't have the region, they CANNOT let the feds get it, or the balance of power will tip to the feds, so even in areas where teh Tholians are not active, other races will play the unknowing role of ally. Meeanwhile, these larger zones are developing all their own polities, and little empires, which although small, would increasingly pose problems of administration and control to any government who conquered them. They're harmless to the Tholians, who don't WANT to conquer them, but would require garrisons, etc from the other powers.
In the eastern sector, the Tholian adventure makes it impossible for the Klingon's an Romulans to ever ally, so the Gorn's manage to keep the Romulans down until they develop warp on thier own-- and the Gorns have their hands full with the Paravians, since the Tholians' quite reasonably decided that breaking the blockade would keep the Eastern races well occupied. The Lyrans, without the close alliance to the Klingon's remained tied up in thier Kzinti/Hydran conflicts, keeping those races occupied with their own raiding, and area denial, on a similar (thought smaller scale) basis as to what is happening with the Klingon's/Feds.
As for the Dyson sphere, I wasn't certain if it could move any further than it did, but moving inside federation territory would certainly be an option-- since then the Seltorians woudl have to come through everyone else...
The big thing is that the Tholians are never interested in conquest-- they just want to insure nobody else becomes big enough to conquer them. By the Y150+ period, the Tholians largely have retreated back to their original borders, since the political landscape now does their jobs for them. They might pop out for a raid if it looks like a race is about to make a major offensive that might tip the balance of power, but nothing less would get them.

By Charles Gray (Cgray45) on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 04:38 pm: Edit

David Slatter:


The problem with fighters for fleet operations is that the losses are not sustainable during independent operations, without a huge logistical tail. A CVS might be able to support it's fighters-- but what about when it loses them? Most deep operations are beyond any sort of F&E logistical grid, so supplies are quite hard to make up.
Now, all ships DO have cargo boxes, but those cargo boxes must also contain everything it takes to operate a ship for months or years at a time. And, of course, if a carrier loses it's fighters, it is to a great extent, neutralized. If the carrier is damanged, then all the resources tied up in the fighters are also lost.
Carriers do exist, but they generally fall into two types:
1. Orion and Merc carriers, are close to the GW model, and often do not have formal escort groups-- they can expect to have short duration missions, close to supply and so use their fighters in the same way the GW carriers did.
2. Major race carriers, are somewhat different-- theuy're large, have a LOT of supply resources, including usually enough spare fighters to completely restock their carrier group, and carry a large number of fighters. They also don't have much i the way of heavy weapons, being expected to use their fighter group as their weapon. Several races also use them for things like assault ships and emergency relief vessels. In the uncontrolled zones, they'd be used to deal with a planet that had to be taken and had lots of fighters-- a rare occurence. (Generally, for most worlds, if they had lots of fighters ,they had few "true" warships, so a major races cruiser could simply hang around and interdict traffic, rather than running directly into the teeth of the fighters.

Now, PF's are a bit different. They're the same as they were in the GW (because if I'm going to submit this to SS, I have to consider that an idea that requries EVERY SSD to get changed is probably a non-starter ) but they're used a bit differently as well. They give smaller worlds a bit more ability to reach out to the space around them, and make true space control ships possible-- and in fact after the major races get the capability, most large carriers are completely converted over to PFT's, with larger groups then the GW showcased-- remember, with no major war going on, nobody is suffering from economic exhaustion, and can thus afford to pull back ships and refit them.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 07:35 pm: Edit

Alan. As the 59 BPV PC is a match for the 75 BPV D4, the 80 BPV DD is definately a superior ship. A 450 BPV force of 6 D4s will lose badly to a 400 BPV force of 5 DDs (though it should be noted that this force is almost at the 10% even BPV point).

However, that said, the Y115 DD is hardly an "EY" ship as the D6 comes out just 7 years later in Y122 (E4s are out in Y121 and E3s in Y120). Additionally, the "MY" conversion of the D4, the LD4 is out in Y121 and at 92 BPV is more than a match for a Tholian DD.

Sticking with the classic EY era, 5 D4s will defeat 5 PCs/PC+s due to their massed disruptors. This situation exists from the arrival of the Tholians in Y79/Y83 for another ~30 years.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 08:50 pm: Edit

Andy, the thing is that while thay can hold what they take very well time isn't really on their side. They really have only a short time to push back three nations from half their territory each. They had better do it quick because the D6 and other MY ships are just around the corner and the Tholians will quickly start lagging technologically.

Historically the Tholians LOST their best ships fighting EY and MY units which is why they only have PC class and variants. Anyway, this gives the Tholians only 30 years to establish themselves (recovery of the sphere after 200 years of hard core intergalactic travel topped off with a trip through the energy barrier), build bases and logistics ifrastructure then start attacking (not knowing how far it is to the enemies core areas, they know very little about the alpha sector, know nothing of the Lyrans, Kzinti, Hydrans, Orion Pirates, Space Monsters etc). They will meet the full force of three nations (the Romulans will be at a huge disadvantage but the Feds and Klingons would ally if the Tholians started invading).

The Tholians just don't have the logistics, the fleet nor the intel on the other races to just show up and imediately start taking over. To be sure some Tholians wanted to but that was dangerous old way thinking. Cooler heads prevailed historically.

IF the Tholians had a real ship yard, had come prepared for invasion (having already scouted the area too by an advanced force), and took several years to set up then they could probably pull it off.

But these Tholians made a last minute ditch from M81. Invasion was the last thing on their minds.

By Charles Gray (Cgray45) on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 09:20 pm: Edit

The other problem with "Imperial" Tholians is a question that I'm looking forward to seeing answered-- how common are "Tholiantype" worlds and how fast to they breed?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 09:22 pm: Edit

I'm capable of answering that fully (it's an issue I've fully addressed in PD Tholians)but I'm very sure I'm not allowed. Sorry.