Loren. 30 years is 60 F&E turns. I can capture a LOT of territory in 60 turns - that's 10 years longer than the General War!

FYI: Per Y1, the Tholians lost their 6 Neo ships by Y107.

By Charles Gray (Cgray45) on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 10:51 pm: Edit

Here's another tidbit.
The main purpose to this one is to limit the number of SSD's-- a major problem for any idea that is ever expected to be submitted. My idea here is that everyone gets 5-7 "Base" ships, which can then be customized, in addition to alist of changes to make to already published ships to shoehorn them in (mainly add some cargo, etc).
I was considering having some modules change the move cost, so instead of a DNL and DN design, you have a DNL design that behaves like a DN(H) if you choose the uber big gun module.

Multi-mission bays and modules:

Nearly every race made some use of both multi-mission bays and modules, often on the same ship. The reason for this combination was the differing purpoase of the two systems.
Multi-mission bays were internal sections of the ship, set up for a rapid conversion from one purpose to another. Labs could be converted into dedicated medical bays, or barracks, or cargo spaces, and more importantly, a crew could do it in a few days at most. The main defect of such systems was that they were impossible to use with systems that produced, or required a large amount of energy, and being internal, could not be used for any purpose requiring a direct access to space. Thus, weapons, sensors, and systems such as tractors, could not be installed in them.
Modules were large, hull segments, that were mated to the ship externally. These systems had their own access to space, and being purpose built, could mount any system their size and design demanded. They required the services of a repair ship or base to mount and thus were seldom changed arbitrarily, more often being installed at the beginning of a mission and not removed until after the tour of duty.

Between them, the two systems made the plethora of specialty ships seen in the General war largely unnessecary. While some missions required purpose built ships, in most cases, the cruisers and destroyers of the regular fleet could be modified into a “good enough” configuration. The MMB’s were often changed, as a ship that one week was handling security for a landing party might the next week swap out its barracks for labs, as it was ordered to determine the cause of a plague. Even better, the design of the MMU’s often allowed a ship to carry differing configurations in it’s cargo bays, eliminating a need to return to base for all but the most dramatic changes.
The modules were more often used to customize a ship for major missions—most cruisers on regular duty used modules that simply provided extra space and range, with a minimal increase in weapons, while a cruiser expecting to be used in heavy combat might find itself equipped with heavier weapons, or troop carrying modules.
With the largest areas to cover, the Klingon Empire and Federation became the first, and most avid users of the systems, although the Klingon modules tended to a somewhat more martial orientation.
Most races settled on a single common size of module, rather than using different sizes for different ships. While some modules were only functional in larger ships due to the stress associated with their weapons, all ships capable of mounting modules could carry any module used by their race, albeit sometimes in a non-functional state.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 04:50 am: Edit

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But the inherent Tholian advantages over EY ships in movement, EW, and phasers seem to me to dominate the "native" Alpha races' advantages in heavy weapons, especially since those heavy weapons can't be overloaded.

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By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 08:56 am: Edit

MJC. You have obviously never actually fought this fight.
1. Tholian PCs are Nimble, which grants EW and maneuver benefits.
2. You will only corner a single PC if the Tholian player is a complete idiot - any competant player will keep all the PCs together.
3. Holding photons, the Feds will be lucky to keep speed 20 - the Tholians can easily top this, even with EW spending.
4. Using SS??? You mean those damage 12, speed 4 shuttles that have a 1-in-6 chance of malfunctioning with every damage point they take? Not to mention giving up the hex of movement for each that you hold.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 09:55 am: Edit

Charles:

quote..
>The problem with fighters for fleet operations >is that the losses are not sustainable during etc..

It's not a problem at all. Compare a federation CVS to a CA (or tholian CVA to C). The CVS is basically the same as the CA with fighters added. Losing its fighters does not make it ineffectual - it leaves it merely as effective as a CA.

The point is - you don't replace the fighters until you get back home again. You can still use your other guns. And you were much more effective than a vanilla ship while your fighters lasted.

In any case, I note that the Hydrans invented a supply tug which carried 54 spare fighters in its pod. I'm sure the Tholians would need to do something similar if they wanted to have extended range operations.

Note that using F&E compots, 54 fighters take 27 F&E damage. That's more damage than the tug and carrier combined with 11 to spare, and not including the 12 or so fighters (6 F&E damage) on the carrier.

So, having a CVS and tug-FCP allows those two ships to take 33 damage in multiple battles and not be crippled in F&E, in situtations where both would be destroyed or forced to return to base otherwise. With just 3 or so support ships, this would be an excellent longe range task force - 4 F&E turns worth of supplies, and plenty of attrition. In every way, better than having no fighters.

Note that with web casters, tholian fighters are even more important. As you know, you simply cast web next to the base so that the fighters can get to R1 and open up at point blank with phas-3s and DSR (PCs in this case I imagine). That's a situation where you may lose a ship (as the cast web won't last for ever), but any fighter that gets its point blank shots off is a very happy one.

By Craig Tenhoff (Cktenhoff) on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 03:03 pm: Edit

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Loren. 30 years is 60 F&E turns. I can capture a LOT of territory in 60 turns - that's 10 years longer than the General War!

FYI: Per Y1, the Tholians lost their 6 Neo ships by Y107.

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By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 03:10 pm: Edit

The Tholians that arrived here could not and would not try to invade.

HOWEVER, a non-overthrown Tholian Will would be fully capable of invading and they would do so WITH their Seltorian servents in hand. The Andros would not hold a candle to a fully planned, fully capable Tholian/Seltorian invasion.

By Seth Iniguez (Sutehk) on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 03:17 pm: Edit

According to my reading of the "Stellar Main" background, the Tholians don't really try to conquer much. They just conduct a series of "defensive" missions geared at slowing the development of the other empires. Not sure that they would need that much to pull it off, if they don't lose their Neos on the initial invasion, they can defeat any other enemy fleet (one or two at a time).

By Charles Gray (Cgray45) on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 05:31 pm: Edit

PRetty much that's the case Seth-- the main thing, the ONLY thing, the Tholians want in this setting idea is to avoid the rise of big empires that could easily pay the economic cost to invade the holdfest.

Once that's done, they happily go home to be isolationistic Tholians. In a real sense, for most of this period, the Tholians are more the peole who set up the stage and are now off enjoying a cup of hot coffee after all their work.

The big advantage the tholians have in this setting is 1. they have more warships, including NDN's and maybe a NBB. 2. They gain the abiliyt to create multi hull ships early-- the Tholian D has an "in service date" of Y100. Craig is right on on 1, 3, 4, 5, and 6-- the Tholians work to spoil, not conquer.
2. Is dicey-- because they don't want to create the thing they're trying to avoid, and looking like they intend to become a major player in the galaxy might very well do that.

By Charles Gray (Cgray45) on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 05:32 pm: Edit

Loren... Why do I have the image of a Klingon admiral looking poleaxed:
"How many ships?"
"One hundred sir...escorting their... um...dyson sphere. According to sensors, the Dyson sphere has phasers big enough to drive a starship down."
"And this is one fleet."
"Yes sir. They have others."

By Craig Tenhoff (Cktenhoff) on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 06:46 pm: Edit

OK, how about this.

The Tholians kept moving their Dyson sphere when they arrive, eventually arriving where the 7th SB will eventually be and annex the province around it and possilby later one or two Federation provinces, spinward and antispinward, giving them a border with the Klingons, Romulans, Orions, and the "Free Klingons".

The Klingons worlds that are in what use to be in Tholian territory rebel (ala the LDR), forming a "Free" nation. This nation is formed with the supported of the Tholians and Romulans. After they leave, the "Free" Klingons gain Romulan support and therefore they use KR ships in this universe, while the Romulans retain their Old and New Ships.

Between the Orions (who never join the Federation), Tholians, and "Free" Klingons, there is no route between the Romulans and Klingons so no Klingon-Romulan treaty against the Federation.

With the Paravians in Gorn space, and the Lyran's and Kzinti's broken up into a couple factions, we just have to figure out how to reduce the Federation, Klingons and Hydrans on map area. Perhaps some more minor empires?

By Charles Gray (Cgray45) on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 07:07 pm: Edit

Yep-- An again, the Tholians would be doing their bit to smack any attempts to establish star bases.

For the tactical questions-- let's put it this way-- imagine any Galactic fleet circa Y90-102 vs. a Tholian fleet of 1xD, 2x CA, 4xDD with a single NCA for Webcaster support. Note that the lack of overloads makes it very hard to kill the NCA-- which can use it's webacsters to both cut up fleets, and to make it easy for the Tholians to disengage.
It doesn't matter if they destroy the fleet after all-- enough damage and the economic cost of keeping those fleets will start to add up, especially when people start to note there's a "Line" beyond which the Tholians don't go.
As for the free Klingon's, that's a thought-- I originally had the Tholian's be located hwere they were, but that could change. I woudl like to avoid KR ships though-- one of hte big things for this universe is less tech slosh.

By Seth Iniguez (Sutehk) on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 11:35 pm: Edit

If you need to reduce Klingon territory, bring in the Vudar early. You already have SSDs and such.

By Charles Gray (Cgray45) on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 12:12 am: Edit

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If you need to reduce Klingon territory, bring in the Vudar early. You already have SSDs and such.

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By Troy J. Latta (Saaur) on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 07:52 am: Edit

Nitpicky, but it's "Holdfast" not "Holdfest"

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 10:52 am: Edit

Troy: Holdfest is a month long celebration Tholians have in the fall where they shoot maiquins of Klingons and rub magnesium until they can't float anymore.

By Charles Gray (Cgray45) on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 02:28 pm: Edit

Oddly enough, I could swear that in some Star trek books, I've seen it written as "Holdfest", but "Holdfast" does make more sense.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 03:27 pm: Edit

On the Romulans:

The Gorns kept the Romulans for developing warp drive on their own by raiding a key research facility.

The Tholians themselves would have made that harder to do. Wider neutral zones means less intel about the enemy. The Gorns might not have realized what happened until too late.

It could also be amusing if by random, stupid, blind chance a Tholian battle group intercepted the Gorn force intended to destroy the Romulan research facility.

We could inject an officious and bureaucratic Tholian commander unwilling to listen to any excuses about why the Gorns are so far from home.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 05:25 pm: Edit

The whole background breaks down quite rapidly.

First, the Tholians simply cannot send fleets rampaging across the Galaxy as widely as is needed for this. It is logistically unsupportable. Even if the races could not attack the Tholian front line fleets, they could and would strike at the long logistics lines the Tholians would need to operate across their national boundaries.

Second, the result of keeping their immediate neighbors broken up simply means that the neighbors of those neighbors will grow, arrive, and absorb the balkanized region in their advance as the region would not be able to defend itself from the outside aggressors. Without the Lyrans, who knows what the Peladine would have become. With the Kzintis and Lryans suppressed, what will stop the Carnivons from expanding into their space? The concept that the Paravians, who see killing Gorns as a sacred religious duty are going to stop because their God(s) provided the Tholians to break the Gorn blockaded and the Tholians left is illogical (the logic of Paravian madness is that they would continue to attack the Gorns if the Tholians saved them).

You would have to assume that the arriving Tholians retained the ability to make their own weapons, and thus the Tholians would NOT use disruptors at all. You might have Tholian DD hulls, for example, but they would be armed with Particle Cannons.

Further, the Federation would expand AWAY from the Tholians, but would remember this enemy and would be changed psychologically as a result. Perhaps becoming heavily militarized and maximizing the the develop of weapons technology and the construction of ships to attack the Tholians.

The Romulans already are already psychologically geared towards galactic conquest. If the Tholians become the principle roadblock, and have also pounded the Gorns down, then it is more likely that all the Tholians would accomplish is concentrating the Romulans on building up to defeat them.

You have to deal with the reaction to what the Tholians are doing, and the reaction is going to be hatred directed at them. Unless the Tholians estabilished a constant presence of patrols around the core areas to destroy any effort by the races to expand, they would expand, and gather strength to attack the Tholians.

By Charles Gray (Cgray45) on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 07:09 am: Edit

SPP-- I'll answer some of your other comments once I get back to my home computer with the material I've been working on, but one thing about the "Conquest".
But one thing, I don't think the Tholians would be in much danger from raids-- their bases and convoys alike would be essentially invulnerble to EY ships, given the existence of the WC and the faster tactical speed of Tholian ships. Even if you assume they have PC's and no disruptors (a reasonable assumption), in the EY period, the PC woudl be the only weapon that has an overload function. The THolians would have the advantage in both strategic and tactical mobility-- at any point where they were outgunned, they could withdraw, and whenever THEY had the tactical advantage they could run down and destroy galactic forces. This would mean that there would be very few Equal BPV battles, with the tholians using their speed advantage to collect a vastly overpowring force to destroy small galactic forces. It wouldn't be the typical 4 PC's vs. 4 D4s, but 4DDs and an NCA vs. 4 D4's, which is a much grimmer battle.

Also, in terms of geography, if you assume the Tholians arrive in Y83, and start their offensive sometime between then and Y92, there are vast spaces between most of the races-- while the Federation and Klingon empire might not like the idea of being constrained, there isn't the same fury (at least on the federation part), of the Tholians invading actual *federation* space, as the area claimed by the federation on page 6 of Y1 would remain--it's the vast areas around it that become the domain of small petty kingdoms. In the west, the Klingons suffer the hardest blow, being forced back form teh borders of hte Kzinti and hydran kingdoms.
As for unifying, would they? I doubt any power could crush the tholians in this alternate setting and even if they coudl, they would lose the vast majority of their fleet. Would the Federation trust the Klingon's to do this, and vs., when it might be plain that if one "partner" could arrange to let the other take the honored place in the front ranks, they mnight be left with the only offensive fleet in the area? Espeically if the Tholians' made a practice to focus on just *one* of the allies, garunteeing that one of the alliance would be stripped totaally of their defenses? That would require a tremendous amount of trust. Managing balkanized powers is an old practice on earth, and like the British Empire, teh tholians might easily arrange to neutralize their opposition through political, not just military means.

Of course, the THolians are a means to an end-- creating a "General war" era setting with wide neutral zones, and an emphasis on single ship/small squadron engagements rather than the all out battles of the general war era. I certainly don't think most of the "backstory" fights would be very interesting. (OK,your four federation CA's are currently 20 hexes from the NDN, 2xNCA and five DD's. What do you do?)

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 11:43 am: Edit

Charles Gray:

You have a fleet that is putting an NDN, an NCA, four DDs, and four PCs into the outskirts of Kzinti space to keep the Kzintis suppressed.

This fleet is supplied by HOW MANY CONVOYS that are traveling from your Dyson Sphere to them?

Each Convoy is Defended by HOW MANY ships?

How long is a force of three Large Freighters, one Large Armed (phaser) freighter, four small freighters, and a PC going to last against my four D4s and four F4s?

If you put your fleets on distant patrol to keep things from happening, your logistics will be vulnerable.

Your choices are either you give the Tholians so many ships that they effectively destroy the ability of the races to move into space by blockade (at which point they have effectively conquered the area and your chain of logic breaks down), or they have so few ships to try to make your logic work, in which case it fails because the logistics to support their opertions would be destroyed.

What do my Four Federation CAs do? Run, while John Trauger's four Federation CLs and four Federation DDs destroy the convoy that is supposed to refuel your ships, forcing you to retreat.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 02:07 pm: Edit

How did the ISC do it?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 02:18 pm: Edit

Um, with a multi-system empire and a vastly larger fleet prepared for the job against a war torn and half willing galaxy.

By Douglas E. Lampert (Dlampert) on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 03:19 pm: Edit

The ISC did it for about 2 years, they set up their supply lines against minimal resistance, and then someone (the Andros in the history) attacked those supply lines and destroyed them piecemeal.

In point of fact they had barely REACHED the Hydrans when they got creamed, so the actual period of separation probably lasted a couple of months at best.

If the Andro's hadn't shown up the ISC would still have lost in the long term. The rest of the galaxy combined was building ships a lot faster than the ISC.

By Charles Gray (Cgray45) on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 03:36 pm: Edit

Looking at the offensive, the time line looks like this:


Timeline:

Tholians Arrive: Y79.
Period of observation: Y79-Y83.

First Tholian attacks on Klingon and Federation border (not core) regions.
Y83-5.

Development of Tholian multi-hull warships: Y85 C, CA, Y87 D, DW. Limited production of webcasters. (note that the Tholians’ did not produce a CW in this alternate universe, having a different cruiser style design that was used).

Major Tholian raiding activity across the alpha quadrant, focused on the destruction of enemy races ability to project power beyond their core areas. Y87-Y110.


Now note, during this period, the Tholians are not gaining territory—but they are denying the ability of other nations to effectively move into this territory. The tholian fleets have all the advantages X-ships would in the future—tactical and strategic mobility advantages, superior firepower, superior electronic warfare, and the ability of the web caster to control the tempo of battle.

But we’re not talking *conquest*, but rather the equivalent of lots of Surface raiding groups from heck. Tholian admiral Rockhead can deny or offer combat basically at his leisure. Also, we don’t need that many small convoys, but several BIG convoys, which can be adequately guarded. He’s not shipping troops, he’s maintaining ships that honestly aren’t likely to be caught in close range battles, so aren’t taking much damage.

Let’s say that the Fed’s decide to collect a counter raiding fleet. Well, we have no YDN’s at this point, so our total squadron size is smaller than the Tholian’s can put together. Already, we’re risking numerical inferiority as well as qualitative inferiority. The *Heaviest* ship the feds can field until Y100 is barely equal to a Tholian DD.

But that isn’t what kills them—it’s the fact that Admiral Rockhead can move his fleet, *and keep it functional for combat* at speeds the feds can only dream of. Send out small squadrons of ships for convoy raiding? Well first you have to *find* the convoy, in the face of someone who is faster and more powerful than you are. Assuming you bring a Vulcan ship along, and thus risk one of your only mobile scout platforms, you still run into the problem that you have no idea if that convoy has screamed for help.
And if it does, you then face the fact that Rockhead can run you down and kill you, and even if you manage to turn the tide against some of his ships, he can retreat faster than you can follow.
Hide under the *guns* of a stardock or base? Well first of all, the only thing you’ve done there is equalized the firepower he has in a single D—and if he wants to, he can smash your ability to function over an entire province by killing the Star dock—but assuming he doesn’t want to risk the casualties that you might inflict on him…well, Admiral Rockhead can then do whatever it is Tholian’s do in the place of a rhasberry, leave a small blocking force (because it can run away while yelling for help), and happily start trashing every convoy he can find. How many YCL’s and YCA's will the federation council be willing to lose when most after action reports read: We killed some freighters and than this monster supership showed up and ate our flagship, using this strange open space web that cut our squadron into a dozen individual parts? If you’re losing your raiding squadrons even ½ of the time, it’s a rate of exchange that will leave the Tholians very happy—you're trading your battle fleet, and the ability to contest space for freighters.
The same thing is happening in the Klingon empire with the added fact that they have enemies all around with the exception of the relatively quiet federation border (this being before the hostility with the feds). But they also have subject races barely under control. Can you risk your entire fleet to attack the Tholians? What if the Tholians hand out Phaser 1 armed ships to your angry subjects? They aren’t *now*, but they might do it, and even if they don’t, how many ships and bases can we lose before the same effect starts up simply through attrition?
But this also probably prevents the Klingons and Lyrans from taking out the Hdrans, so the Y92 map will probably still have Hydran’s on it, tying down the two “allies” forces. The Hydrans could care less about driving the Tholian’s out—in fact they owe them their national survival. The same thing might very well apply on the Kzinti border, as powerful tholian raiding squadrons smash the infrastructure built up to attack the federation.
But during this period, you have the effect that while this is going on outside the core areas, inside the core areas there is no raiding—how long before the federation council decides to give up on a bad idea? The planets outside that border still have to trade with someone, and the Klinks and feds are the logical choice, so economically, they’re not being frozen out. Of course, that means that you don’t want to risk any changing the defacto state of affairs, because even if the Tholians go home, if the Klingons/feds/etc., ever do take over these zones, the *first* thing you can expect is that your ships, your traders will be kicked out.
Also, while no “neutral zone” power can match even the shrunken “big boys”, in the total aggregate, they DO pack some noticeable firepower by Y150… you may be able to invade, but can you maintain control? Entire generations have grown up knowing independence and turning trading partners into hostile worlds full of guerrilla freedom fighters is a bad idea. Better to saddle up the prime team, go in and offer *gifts* to make certain we get that 10% cut on tariffs.

Finally, even after Y150, many of the offices in the various naval forces will have been young midshipmen during the Tholian attacks, and that will, in and of itself have some effect. These won’t be the officers from the “Real” timeline who remember the Tholians a group of isolationistic rocks—they’ll be the midshipmen who remember entire fleets destroyed by ships that moved impossibly fast while firing all weapons, or who withdrew faster than they could follow, shielding themselves with virtually impenetrable ECM—ships that only stayed to fight when they *knew* they could win, with DN’s that carried as much firepower as an entire stardock, where the only hope was that they would leave it intact for some unknowable reason. To these officers, the idea of going up against the Tholians again, especially now that they’ve more or less retreated back into the Holdfast would be a nightmare. What else do they have in that closed zone of space? We know what our ships can do now, but what if they’ve also had a qualitative improvement over the last fifty odd years? Good God, they’ve been bordering *romulan* space—what if they’ve refitted their ships with Plasma torpedos?! You want to risk a war with a race that has plasma R’s mounted on webcaster equipped ships? Are you *mad*, no, best to leave sleeping dogs lie.

Again, the main thing is that the Tholians are the explination for the setting, but they don’t drive it. If anyone can come up with a reason why the major powers never expand out and start bumping into each other like they do in the major continuity, please do. It’s just that the Tholians are the only power that seems to me could become advanced enough to do this—yet is also constrained by their own goals, so as not to also wish to just turn it into a traditional conquest. I had a few other iterations of this, ranging from an Early Andro invasion, to a setting in which there was some kind of “great space monster” migration that kept everyone close to home, but I think the rockheads do best.