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Bear in mind that the Vari particle beam can also fire twice in a single turn (and can even be overloaded for both shots), which may be a factor in the event that a Vari battle force were to be submitted during this round of submissions.

Plus, from an historical perspective at least, the M81 Pirate ships from CL40 can choose to take particle cannons and/or shield crackers in their option mounts. (I do think it's a shame that the two home galaxy pirate SSDs are barred from entry on the SFB side of things, since they have yet to be formally published in a full game module. But at least the OGR and OGD Ship Cards from that same issue are eligible in FC battle groups, which allowed me to submit a High Pirate Band force in the CL48 round of submissions for that game system.)

On that note, I was wondering - how would Seltorian players rate the OGR and OGD when compared to the comparable hull classes available to the Selts in the home galaxy? Would the M81 Pirates' surplus of discretionary warp power (due to those "bonus" wing-mounted C warp engines) give them the advantage in a duel or squadron encounter, or would Selts flying CLs or DDs feel reasonably well-matched against such opposition in open space?

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Saturday, January 31, 2015 - 11:05 pm: Edit

Gary, I am not 100% on the Omegas, I have only limited access to the modules.
The Vari sound nasty, perhaps in the next Battle Group 550 ( Captains Log #52 ) I will look into doing an Omega force.
All good.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Thursday, July 09, 2020 - 04:45 pm: Edit

After buying New Worlds III. I have been looking at Seltorian tactics. That means of course there weapons. The Web Breaker is only good vs Web. You can use it in shield cracker mode. A weapon that only damages shields and fires in the shield step. It can also stop general reinforcement being applied to stop Transporters. Weak damage fired before real fire and they carry one or two of them. You could of course fire the shield cracker to find out if there is a brick on that shield. Then fire your weapons depending on what you find.

It is the PC however that seems to be the focus in the tactics section. To weak they are saying. So I have been looking at it.

The best I can do is compare them to the Disrupter. As the Tholians in Milky way used them instead of the PC.

Both can be armed and fired at WS-0. Both lose 1 point of damage firing thru atmosphere. They are single turn arming Direct fire weapons.

The damage out put is very close as well as the range brackets. Both can be overloaded. The Disrupter hits more often and at point blank ranges does more damage.

Then there is DERFACS and UIM for the Disrupter making the hit ratio even higher for the Disrupter over the PC. The second shot of the PC helps with the damage ratio a bit. But is difficult to achieve and even more so on the same shield.

Power Disrupter is 2 points for a standard shot 4 for over load. PC is 2 for standard. 3 for a overload. 1 point for second standard shot of turn.

Then there is the capacitor for the PC. Can hold 1-5 points of power. Hold cost is 1/2 the power in the capacitor.

WS-0 arm 1-5 points. 3 is good as gives a Overload or 2 standard shots.

WS-1 Can be holding 2 in capacitor.
2 power (1 H-2 +1 =3 in capacitor)
4 power (1 H-2 +3 =5 in capacitor)

WS-2 Can be holding 3 in capacitor.
1.5 power (1.5 h3 +0 = 3 in capacitor)
3.5 power (1.5 H3 +2 =5 in capacitor)

WS-3 can be holding 5 in capacitor
2.5 power (2.5 H5 = 5 in capacitor)

The Disrupter is 2 for standard 4 for overloads. At all WS. Also once overloaded the Disrupter is limited to firing the overload or losing the power.

PC are cheaper to arm then Disrupters and add the fact that You can fire standards or overloads depending on maneuver. The Capacitor makes them more flexible. The damage out put may be a bit less depending on die rolls and if you can maneuver for a second shot.

My thoughts,, any one else

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, July 09, 2020 - 06:26 pm: Edit

Gregory, a couple of points you didn't cover, as the rules are in Module X1R rather than Module C3:

Shield Cracker
An X-tech Shield Cracker has an alternate "damage mode" that functions like a "normal" weapon - it can damage ships in this mode, but won't suppress the shield reinforcement function.

Particle Cannon
An X-tech particle cannon has two improvements that collectively make it a significant upgrade over the non-X version.

1) The delay between the first and second shots in a turn is reduced to only 8 impulses.

2) Both shots in a turn can be overloaded for an X-tech particle cannon.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Friday, July 10, 2020 - 12:20 am: Edit

IMO, the particle cannon on the Seltorian ships makes for an interesting, if often frustrating combination for the Seltorian player. Thanks to their ability to fire more than once a turn, the particle cannon will, over time, be able to deliver easily as much, if not more damage when compared with disruptors and photon torpedoes. HOWEVER, the poor maneuverability of Seltorian ships makes it difficult to achieve the multiple angles and firing solutions necessary to take advantage of this in individual actions.

On the other hand, in squadron and fleet actions, particularly outside of overload range (say, ranges nine to fifteen), Seltorians have an edge.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Friday, July 10, 2020 - 12:02 pm: Edit

Seltorians in squadron scenarios, shoot and keep shooting, when the time is right use the large number of transporters to send in the marines, and or hit and run raids is usually entertaining.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Friday, July 10, 2020 - 03:03 pm: Edit

Thank You all for replying. I am happy that I am not far off on what tactics I should try and use with them.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, July 13, 2020 - 09:22 pm: Edit

Gregory,

One other point I forgot to mention, which only applies to Seltorians in this galaxy:

Seltorians use Klingon fighters. So if, and only if, they have a carrier group present, they have drone capability.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Tuesday, July 14, 2020 - 03:04 pm: Edit

Yes was looking at that as well. That of course also means late period stuff. So fast drones as well. They would be real useful when dealing with drones. Klingons and Federation and others for sure. klingon fighters are not the best but they can throw out some drones and help vs seekers.

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Tuesday, July 14, 2020 - 04:21 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

That of course also means late period stuff.

---

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Tuesday, July 14, 2020 - 04:32 pm: Edit

Normally, Mark, I'd agree.

On the other hand, there is scenario (SL345.0) "A Rock and a Hard Place" in Captain's Log #51. It's a fight between Seltorians and Jindarians that takes place in Y120.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, July 14, 2020 - 06:14 pm: Edit

Gregory,

Don't forget that while fighters cannot receive protection from ECM drones, they can carry said drones and launch them to protect friendly ships. In a large fleet action, your scout won't have enough channels, or power, to support every Seltorian ship. You can use the fighters to provide additional ECM, protecting Seltorian ships that would otherwise not be covered.

And... don't knock the Klingon fighters. They're not as powerful as F-14s or F-15s. But those fighters make up only a small percentage of overall Federation fighter strength. The most common late-war Federation fighter is the F-18 and the Z-Y is better than the F-18, assuming comparable levels of refit (Z-YC versus F-18C). This might not matter in a single patrol scenario, in which the Feds could choose to field a CVA, CVB, or BCV if they want to spend the points. But strategically, those carriers will be greatly outnumbered by F-18 carriers such as the CVS and NVS (to say nothing of the smaller carriers). So the Feds would have fighter superiority in a small number of battles (presumably the most important ones) to which they deploy their "elite" carriers/fighters. But the Klingons would have fighter superiority in a larger number of (admittedly less important, individually) battles.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Tuesday, July 14, 2020 - 07:11 pm: Edit

It is not ECM I am worried about but ECCM. PCs have a bad enough to hit factor with out a +1 or +2 shift. So ECM drones while nice or not really what I would use the drones for. Better to use them to slow down the other side as to get that second PC shot.

Yes in the Historical time frame in the Alpha octant. It would be late period. Non historical is a different matter. What would be allowed then would be up to the players.

In regards to the Klingon fighters. Remember BPV cost of them high powered Federation fighters. A group of cheaper Klingon fighters can be very useful. Leaving more points for other things. Those klingon fighters a few can have special rails. A few Drones with ADDs to take out drones . Or just have Dog fight drones for killing drones.

It of course can depend on the scenario being played and in a campaign there should be many types. Romulans with there big plasma R and Kzinti with hordes of drones. Great for taking out fixed installations. Seltorians would be good in a retrograde. So defending a convoy or attacking a convoy. Ground assault battles as well with all of there transporters and boarding parties. PCs also are good at attacking ground installations as a Disrupter.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, July 14, 2020 - 08:13 pm: Edit

I don't recommend retrograding for the Seltorians. In the 9-15 range bracket a particle cannon will do more damage over time than either a disruptor or a proximity-fused photon torpedo. (though less in a single volley). But in the 22-30 range bracket, it will do less damage over time. This assumes the disruptor-armed force is mostly cruiser or larger, with DERFACS. Particle cannons do range to 30 hexes even on destroyers and frigates, and would thus give the Selts an edge at long range against a disruptor force composed mostly of small ships. But trying to retrograde against a photon torpedo-equipped force, or a disruptor-armed force of mostly cruisers (or X-tech smaller ships) is a losing proposition.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Monday, November 28, 2022 - 09:29 am: Edit

There's a bit of discussion going on re: Seltorian PFs and sniping over in the Fed tactics board. I figured I'd move those here.

1. How well do they do long range sniping at the fleet level? There's a concern that their double shots are something of a liability in that they require maintaining targets in the FA for longer than other races in order to match the damage output.

2. In what way are their PFs so great?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, November 28, 2022 - 02:47 pm: Edit

Ginger,

I don't think the Seltorians are a good long-range-sniping fleet. I explained why briefly in my post just above yours (from 14 July 2020). But let's put some specific numbers to that.

At 23-30 hexes, a PC hits on a 1-2 for 1 point of damage. That's an expectation of ¹/₃ of a point of damage per shot, or ²/₃ of a point per PC per turn. A DERFACS-equipped disruptor hits 1-3 for 2 points, an expectation of 1 point of damage per disruptor per turn. And the Selts are paying 3 points of power per PC per turn while the disruptor-armed ships are paying two points of power.

The wild card, that can give the Selts the edge in some circumstances, is ship type. PCs can range to 30 hexes, even mounted on frigates and destroyers. Disruptors... can't. They only reach range-30 on cruisers and larger. So in a fleet action with numerous small ships on each side, the Selts do have an advantage a long range over a disruptor-armed enemy. The superior numbers of PCs able to engage at that range can overmatch the superior capabilities of DERFACS-disruptors, since the enemy has few of them.

But if the enemy fields a heavy force with numerous cruisers, the disruptors win. Really, the PC is a highly efficient medium range weapon, in my opinion.

I'll address the PFs later, after I run some errands. But the short answer is the phaser suite.

Longer answer later...

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, November 29, 2022 - 12:12 am: Edit

OK, Seltorian PFs.

In my post this morning in the Federation Tactics topic, I offered my opinion that Seltorian PFs were among the best in Alpha. I don't think they are the absolute best, only "among the best". In that same Federation Tactics post, I did also state that I thought the Tholian PFs were slightly better.

What I really like about the Seltorian PFs is the phaser suite. The standard Selt PF has one PC, 3 phaser-1s and 2 phaser-3s. For standard PFs (i.e., non-"phaser boat" PFs), this is the most powerful phaser suite available at medium and long range. (Harriers can beat this at short range due to the gatling phaser.) There is also a pure phaser boat version, which loses the PC for a fourth phaser-1. The Arachnid-P (phaser boat version of the Tholian PF - swaps out the two disruptors for two more phaser-1s) matches the Selt phaser boat in number and type of phasers (four phaser-1s, two phaser-3s) with (arguably) better arcs. But the Selt has another trick up its sleeve. Most PF leaders (but not the Tholians, unfortunately)^* gain a little extra power over the standard PFs. So far as I can recall, the Selt PF leader is the only one that gains an additional weapon (a phaser-1). So a Seltorian phaser boat PF flotilla actually has one more phaser-1 than a Tholian Arachnid-P flotilla. (These two flotillas have the most long and medium range phaser firepower. Howlers win at close range due to multiple gatling phasers. If Howlers get close they are absurdly dangerous, but there aren't very many of them.)

The Selt PF, whether standard or phaser version, is not a "crunch power" PF. It is a "dance at range" PF. But with the best long range phaser suite of any flotilla, it is exceptionally good at that. Recall that phasers on PFs are limited to 15 hexes but other direct fire weapons are limited to 10 hexes. (The photon torpedo is the only excepton I can think of, having a range of 12 hexes from a PF. But only the Orions used photons on their PFs historically. Fed PFs also use them if you are allowing "conjectural" ships.)

So from 11 to 15 hexes, the Selt will outgun an opponent flotilla in direct fire weaponry. Plasma torpedoes launched as seekers will reach beyond 10 hexes. But these are either Type-F torpedoes or Type-Ds from a plasma rack. So they are really not that effective at range. Drones are the only truly long ranged weapon available to PFs but PF drone racks don't carry reloads. This is a problem in a long, drawn out battle as the drone-armed PFs must eventually either return to the tender or fight on with an inferior (remaining) weapon suite.

What about within overload range? That will depend on the enemy. But though the Selts have less "crunch power", the energy-efficiency of the phaser-1s mean they have a lot of energy available for other purposes.

Consider a standard Selt PF versus a standard Lyran PF at range-8. They centerline each other and fire everything they've got.

Lyran: Two overloaded disruptors for an expected damage of 8. Two phaser-2s for expected 2¹/₃. Two phaser-3s for expected ²/₃. Total Lyran damage expectation: 11 points.

Selt: One overloaded PC for expected 3 points.
Three phaser-1s for expected 6¹/₂. Two phaser-3s for expected ²/₃. Total Seltorian damage expectation: 10¹/₆ points.

So the Lyran has the edge in raw damage by slightly less than one point. But for the Lyran, that requires 11 points of power. Of that power, 3 points may have been saved from a previous turn if the Lyran did not fire phasers. But 8 points for the two overloaded disruptors has to have been allocated that turn.

The Selt, by contrast, requires 7 points of power, of which 4 points for the phasers could have been allocated on a previous turn. Indeed, if the Selt was holding 3 points in the capacitor (perhaps not expecting to survive to get off the second PC shot) as well as fully armed phasers, it only needed to allocate 1¹/₂ power this turn. Whatever tactics were used, the Selt has a lot more power than the Lyran for other uses, whether EW, maneuvering to gain superior position, or shield reinforcement. So even if it only gets one PC shot, range 8 doesn't look bad for the Selt.

At closer range, the Lyran will overpower the Selt. But it has to get close in the first place, while spending 8 points of power for the overloaded disruptors. And the Lyran also has to get through range 5. At that range, all the weapons do the same damage as at range 8, except the phaser-1s. The Selt expected damage jumps from 10¹/₆ to 14¹/₆. The Selt (which, remember, has a lot more power available due to not worrying about overloading disruptors) then HETs away and increases the range, setting up for the next attack.

Obviously, the ability of the Selt to use these tactics depends on the situation. And PFs don't usually fight as single ships. They fight as flotillas. But with phaser-1s and a lot more (remaining) power, a Selt flotilla probably gives better than it receives in a range-8 exchange with a Lyran flotilla. It may lose to the Tholians (another phaser-1 PF) or Gorns (3 phaser-1s plus a bolted Type-F). But it is not totally overmatched by either. And I think the Tholians and Gorns are both leading contenders for the best PF in all of Alpha.

So what makes the Selt PFs so great? It's the phaser suite.


^*In fairness, I can't really complain. Tholian standard PFs have better power than most standard PFs. So even without a boost for the leader, the Tholians are looking good, power-wise.