The Premise is that the Enemy ship that faces you in the simulator is not native to this dimension.

Your Sensors and scanners confirm that fact.

What you don't know is "what it does have."

To address that unknown, is the following list of changes to any existing race's ship. to simulate the "enhanced ability" of the unknown, roll 1 die and apply the indicated change.

For example:

1. All phasers upgraded to the next higher type. (ex. phaser 3's become phaser 2's, phaser 2's become phaser 1's, and phaser 1's become phaser 4's.)(note, energy costs of the higher type do apply. if a phaser is upgraded from phaser 3 to phaser 2 then the energy cost increases from 0.5 energy to 1.0 energy).
2. All transporters range increased to 7 hexes instead of 5. (same energy cost)
3. All Tractor beams have range 4 ability, (costs 4 points of power).
4. All warp engine boxes generate 2 points of energy instead of 1.(or, as an alternative, the Movement cost of the ship is half of the normal MC. (the Fed CA MC is 1/hex but in this case it will be 1/2.)
5. Electronic warfare limits increased. may generate 8 points of Electronic Counter Measures and/or 8 points of ECCM. for a maximum of 8 points combined total. (ie could have 8 ECM and 0 ECCM, or o ECM and 8 ECCM or some combination not exceding 8 points of both types.)
6. Somehow, the rules of physics nolonger apply. Tractor beams do not lose effectiveness due to increased range. 1 point of power has same ability for tractor auctions whether the range is zero, 1, 2 or 3 hexes. (in this case, the extended range option of #3 above is not available. The inverse square law does not apply (or appear to pertain in this case.)

I'm certain other options could be created.

While this has not been playtested, as a initial suggestion, treat the BPV adjustment for this "modification" as 100% increase of the original ships BPV. It won't be correct, but will be closer than the unmodified original BPV would be.

The "Unknown Encounter ship" could replace a similar ship in any published scenario. (imagine a USS Hood variant with 60 points of warp power in scenario SH19.0).

This could "materially change" a number of existing scenarios, and thus "bring a fresh breath of air" to them.

The alternative, is to pick an existing ship, and create a new SSD to reflect the new abilities and (if possible) an appropriate BPV for it (and the effects of the tech change.)

By Barton Pyle (Bart) on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 01:47 am: Edit

Its interesting, But the Phaser 1's to Phaser 4's is extremly obscene. Why not just have them bumped to x phasers instead of phaser 4's?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 11:03 am: Edit

I'm not sure if extending tractors to R4 ( for 4 cost ) is worth anywhere near 100% more BPV.
The Positron Flywheel and Outstanding crews are worth 50% each and are massively more powerful.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 12:19 pm: Edit

Barton, I was using it as "an extreme example" to convey the point.

If you want to suggest that it be an exception, fine.

I can live with that modification.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 12:31 pm: Edit

MJC:

We could add a separate BPV factor to each adjustment... I had considered that, but reasoned that if one knew before hand the value of the BPV adjustment, one could reasonably ascertain which adjustment was in play by the value of the adjustment.

By giving it a "blanket" 100% surcharge we (in a sense) preserve the tactical unknown.

If you "know" the enemy ship has improved tractors and nothing else, you treat it as very similar to existing ships and fight the battle accordingly.

If you "Know" that that psuedo Vanilla Fed DD has 6 phaser 4's and 4 overloaded Photons.... then an overrun tactic is "contra-indicated" ((Political Correct speach for "that's a REALLY BAD IDEA!!!)

If you have a better suggestion as to how to rate the modifications in BPV terms without sacrificing the "Unknown" factor, I'd like to hear it.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 01:27 pm: Edit

If you need phasers to do more damage, reinstate the now-defunct "overloaded phasers" rule.

It would be best if each of the options were close to each other in value so you can match it to a Galactic BPV.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 05:08 pm: Edit

John Trauger:

The "overloaded phasers" rule has so much baggage in the form of bad PR and animosity that it would likely kill the idea immediately.

Following your idea of balancing the options runs into the problem the MJC pointed out that the effect of different systems have varied BPV impact. (I mean adding range to tractors or transporters is less important than more power or more powerful phasers).

I suppose we could approach it differently... such as leave the weapons and SSD's intact but apply different "factors" to the ship.

For example, The proposal could be changed so that the Movement Cost is half of the printed/posted value (like a CA with a 1/hex MC is now a 1/2 MC ship...or improve the energy cost of systems (like transporters and tractors and EW) by 1/2. instead of each transporter requiring 0.2 points of power, they would be half the normal rate and only cost 0.1 power per transporter.

Could get complicated in certain situations like tractor auctions... but the ship would have more available (descretionary) power available and thus be more effective...

It really doesnt matter to me what the changes are... I was just suggesting that we could simulate the effect of "new Technology" by making (what I had hoped to be) some simple changes to an existing SSD.

And do it in a Universal method, so that it could be applied across the various races already published in the game.

By Tim Longacre (Timl) on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 06:58 pm: Edit

Instead of Ph-4s, you could use the Ph-Ms from the Galactic smorgasbord module. That might be a little less extreme.
Other than that, it sounds like a very interesting idea.

By John Kasper (Jvontr) on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 10:14 pm: Edit

Instead of changing which phaser type is used, just modify the range bracket. (the thing hits out to range 4 on the range zero chart, etc.)

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 10:21 pm: Edit

Tim Longacre:

Thank you for your comment, much appreciated.

But we still have to address John Traugers point that quote: "It would be best if each of the options were close to each other in value so you can match it to a Galactic BPV. "

Just substituting a class of phasers for another (such as phaser M for phaser 1's) would reequire SVC's input... and he might (rightfully so) hesitate to release such proprietary information in such an explicit manner.

I hoped we might be able to establish a simple substitution, that when applied, would provide a playable option that wouldnt be too "obscene" (to use Bartons term for it).

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 01:45 am: Edit

Another phaser upgrade option could be borrowing the P5/P6 charts from the X2 discussions.

Upgrades would follow this path:

P3 -> P6
P2 -> P1
P1 -> P5

For those who don't want to push through the X2 discussions:

The P-5 comes down to approximately 1/2 a P-M in both damage and power cost.

The P-6 is a rough middle ground between a P-3 and a P-2, but retaining most of the P-3's short range limitations.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 02:21 am: Edit

---

Quote:

If you have a better suggestion as to how to rate the modifications in BPV terms without sacrificing the "Unknown" factor, I'd like to hear it.

---

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 11:57 am: Edit

Jeff Wile:

A major problem is that things are not as simple as a "tractor is a tractor is a tractor".

Some ships have far more tractors than other ships (Hydran CAs have four, Federation CAs have two, Klingon BCs have three).

Some have far more transporters than others.

Upgrading the nine phaser-2s on an unrefitted Klingon D7 to phaser-1s is far less powerful than upgrading the six phaser-1s on a Federation CA to phaser-4s.

Doubling the power output on any ship will allow it to instantly kill any other ship in its class, and is far more powerful for a ship like a Federation CA facing off against two Klingon D7s than it would be for a Klingon D7 facing off against two Federation CAs (the amount of shield reinforcement that the extra-dimensional Federation CA could have every turn would be extremely detrimental to the D7s punching through with their disruptors, while the one turn punch of photons would allow two Federation CAs some reasonable chance of defeating an extra-dimensional D7).

In short, you are running into the problem that trying to apply a "simple rule" to a very complex equation results in some cases of "instant death" for the opposing ship. (Six phaser-4s on that Federation CA equals an average of 110 points of damage at range three, i.e., my D7 just blew up and your D7 is probably trying to disengage desperately. He did not need to load his photons at all, so simply doubling his BPV is not going to fix this problem.)

Further, allowing a ship to use more EW works only if the ship HAS THE POWER TO USE IT, and sadly also runs into the problem that not everyone uses EW.

At this juncture, I think you might be better off just allowing the ship in a given scenario to use some of the partial X-Upgrades. The BPV for each is more or less given, and the one that the ship has is determined randomly.

But that is just my thought. I am NOT trying to shut down this discussion, and will drop in from time to time to see if anything is developing on any other paths you or others in this topic choose to walk down.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 12:38 pm: Edit

To some extent the differences in ability built around the different SSDs actually improves the "surprise" factor.

I wonder if Phaser proof shields would increase the BPV of a ship by more than 50%???

I wonder if one could have reflective shielding that damages the attacker (it occoured to me that reflective shielding that was also leaky could be BPV neutral if the right leak rate was found) perhaps with a tactical nature added into it (long range fire is less likely to cause reflected damage)?
Say use the table below to determine the damage inflicted back at the attacking ship ( rounded down ). The damage still being applied ( like feedback damage, this is extra ) but the reflected value hurts the attacking ship.

Range	0-1	2	3-4	5-8	9-16	17-32
Reflection Rate	1 in 2	1 in 3	1 in 4	1 in 5	1 in 6	1 in 10

By Frank Brooks (Alskdjf) on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 01:58 pm: Edit

MJC,

You've just given the ship a flame shield (OG1.0).

By Spencer Rathbun (Spencerr) on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 09:18 pm: Edit

An idea sort of like that was created by Donald Miller. It involved ship aging. You can find it here : http://www.smileylich.com/sfb/rules/ship_aging.txt

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 06:58 am: Edit

How about making the Alien ship worse?

I.e. it looks like that's a DN with Phas-1s and photon-equivalents. In reality, it has phas-3s and particle beam-equivalents.

The non-alien player then gets a penalty for not finishing off and inferior opponent quickly.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 08:07 pm: Edit

Getting back to this thread...

David Slatter raised an issue in making the ship worse... We could ***intheory*** get ths same effect by judicious use of the Crew Quality rules Rule G21.0 (such as applying the effects of 'Poor Quality' or 'Outstanding' crew adjustments.

It wasnt what I had in mind originally, however...

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 02:00 am: Edit

Another way would be to develop similar effects. That way you can mix ship age with crew standards.

Say a ship that is one year old has a DamCon rating ( the crews don't yet know what they're doing ) of 2 less (but no lower than 2).
As ships get old you could just lower the breakdown rating to reflect lowered reliability, perhaps very old ships would loose DamCon again as parts become less common.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 01:01 pm: Edit

Also Super-Intelligent Battle Computers, the oft-cursed Positron Flywheel...

Hey, you could apply the Ubitron to other weapons besides disruptors, too. that would be a classic "alien with an achilles heel" scenario.

You could also create a "dial-a-ship" by squishing together different bits of simulator technology.

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica) on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 02:59 pm: Edit

John,

I remember when the UIM made its appearance, and errata was required to clarify that no, you could not use it with a Photon Torpedo. There were some wild and wooly ship mods until that clarification happened, let me tell you....

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 01:04 am: Edit

Actually an alien weapon could be an alien weapon option.

How does this grab anyone?

The Photon Shotgun.
Cost one point of impulse per phot-tube on either the final turn of arming or one of the turns of holding. Once shotgunned can not be restored.

To hit numbers are increased by +1 when shotgunned ( E.g. R5-8 becomes 1-4 ).
Maximum range, 20 hexes.

Divide warhead into two point lots ( extras are lost ). This then becomes the number of pellets.
If the weapon hits, roll 2D6-1 with a number of pellets hitting equal to the result or if the roll is greater than the total number of pellets then just one pellet strikes.
Proxies will follow the proxy rules and shotgun rules when the two are combined ( i.e. one point of damage per pellet but +2 die roll shift).

E.g. A 15 point Photon is shot gunned with a point of reserve impulse power. This creates 7 pellets ( 2 damage each ) and when fired at R4 shall hit on a 1-5. 2D6-1 shall then be roll and if a 6 is rolled then 6 pellets hit for 12 points of damage.

Such a weapon system is probably so much weaker than a regular photon to make it not worth while but in conjunction with regular photons would be a handy addition and offsets the big problem for photons ( EW shifts ).

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 11:35 am: Edit

Jessica,

Yeah, I do. I remember when the ubitron rules included *phasers*.

I remember one game about 15 years ago, where we were doing a big Andro scenario and the Andro players wanted P-1s on their ships. The wheeling and dealing saw my Fed CX get an ubitron that worked by those old rules.

Ubitron-assisted overloaded phasers...

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 02:37 pm: Edit

Talk about a scary ship. Wow.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, October 02, 2005 - 02:23 pm: Edit

I wouldn't say that was the *only* reason the Andros lost both dominators, but hoo boy...