...so if the Orions approached the Tholians, offering to build them a shipyard complex in exchange for being able to use some of its capacity...

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 01:13 pm: Edit

There would be insurmountable hurdles based on phylosophy and mistrust to overcome. The Tholians would never allow Orions to operate in the Holdfast. Their very survival depends on isolation (in their view at the very least).

Further, it's not just the shipyard that's the problem it's the engineering involved. There have been no new Tholian ship designs for many generations before the Will fell. There were places in the Will where such engineering skills exsisted but it wasn't on THIS sphere.

By Derek Myers (Exile) on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 07:00 am: Edit

I recall in the history files of R7 the Tholians lacked the capacity to manufacture large hull plates to produce the larger ships. So the shipyard they have must be very minor. If they captured a full sized shipyard able to produce larger hull plates, the Tholians are in business.

Back up a moment. You mean to tell me that when the Tholian Will fell, a group of incompetent, retarded, or totally inept Tholians packed up their Dyson Sphere and were some how able to travel to another galaxy? I mean think about it, some Tholian out of the BILLION that arrived had to have some measure of intelligence, and can read, write, add, and subtract. Someone had to figure out how to move the Sphere, chart a course, and keep things together and working.

If the United States, a population roughly 260 million can produce a nuclear power Aircraft carrier, probably designed by a small group of brainiacs.....then it is not inconceivable for a Tholian Think Tank to come up with something from the existing blueprints, or even the existing ships from the 312th.

It only takes 1 person to come up with an idea or invention, a group of people working on the same project have a greater chance. And you can't tell me the Tholian were under so much pressure that every single able bodied Tholian was fighting, they don't have that many ships.

If we take a step back and look at the big picture, it is possible for the Tholians to recapture their former technology without any "special cercumstance". Ingenuity, diligence and a willingness to survive, should have pushed them forward....same thing happened during WWI and WWII, rapid advances in technology.

Just some food for thought.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 10:51 am: Edit

Well, the thing is that I do have the big picture (I'm writing it). It turns out that moving the sphere in itself is not such a surprizing thing for these Tholians to do.

There are other factors involved that clealy explain why there is not the capability to build new ships. That is right, not one Tholian out of several billion has the knowledge to design build starships (of course not ONE American has the knowledge to design and build Aircraft Cariers either; it takes large teams.)

Actually a large portion of Tholians were working for the National effort which enbodies much more than just ship building.

But there were a few shart Tholians working on Ship Design. That's how the Tholians have ships larger than PC (i.e the CA, D, CW etc). There are actually great feats of engineering. The Tholians have do exceptionally well with what they have.

But an Orion ship yard wouldn't be able to build Tholian ships. It just doesn't work that way. They could build auxillaries perhap, but not Neo designs and not Archeo designs.

They aren't going to strike deals with anyone either. In some cases it might be in their best interest but they just aren't going to see it that way. And when the other races undestand better what the Tholians come from they aren't going to be interested in seeing the Tholians expand either.

By Derek Myers (Exile) on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 01:16 pm: Edit

Even if you are "writing it" does not mean you have the big picture. It means your developing their "History". And if you're writing it without any input, it means you're making it up as you see fit.

If you can't accept that I brought up some valid points on what could have happened and only say, they can't because you don't want them to, then just say so.

And your right, it takes more than 1 person to build and design an Aircraft Carrier, which I stated above. It takes a team to develope the concept, and a larger team to put it into developement and production.

My whole point was the Tholians have the capability to do it. Unless the PTB don't want them too, in which case say so. I hate wasting my time by trying to provide input and some one saying, "No, because I said so."

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 01:57 pm: Edit

That's not particularly fair. He has the big picture not just because he's writing it...he has the big picture because he's worked out the details with ADB and they are contracting him to write it up. He can't go into too much detail because of confidentiality reasons. For my money, I don't see a problem with the idea that they can't build new ships.

You compare them to modern human beings; but who says they have the same psychology or mindset as we do? We're creative individuals; they may not be. You've got a society that has been using the same stuff for thousands of years, with little to no differences. That doesn't speak to a terribly creative or individualistic race. Much of what they build is likely built through the same sort of automated systems like the Galactic sphere uses to build PC's in the Holdfast.

So here's this relatively small group of surviving Tholians. They get their butts kicked out of their home galaxy and run like hell to get away, taking a sphere with them. This apparently is no big thing; they can move the sphere because it's something they already do. But when they arrive here, they have no more of the ship building facilities in place that cranked out Neo-type hulls. Those systems were presumably in place for centuries, and the current batch of Tholians have no clue how to build them. Such are the dangers of complacency...you get lazy. In addition to those problems, there is also the very real problem of using an existing "galactic" shipyard to build alien technology. For the same reasons no one else can build web generators and web snares, the Tholians can't build their ships with galactic yards. Heck, they can't even make photon torpedoes, and have to buy them from the Feds. And that's just a single weapon, not an entire ship. So, they really don't have the capability to build new ships. Grant Loren and ADB the chance to work things out completely, and I bet you'll go along with it all with no problem.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 02:05 pm: Edit

Well, I certainly don't have the authority to say "No, because I said so." even if I'm writing PD Tholians but I do have a big picture that I cannot share a lot of details of. I'm trying to be helpful while preserving the integrity of a future publication.

I post that which I do to help people avoid wasting time on something that they wouldn't otherwise if they know the whole story. And, with the good graces of fate, in 2006 you will have the big picture too. At the GAMA show earlier this year I had a fairly long meeting with SVC and he has the general big picture too. Couple this with continued e-mail exchanges with SVC and I can speak with some level of confidence. (Although, there is the fact that nothing is official until it's in print.)

There are specific reasons why some things won't happen. There will likely be some interesting doors opened that people didn't even know was a door. I hope you can understand that I can't go posting all the secrets on this BBS so I try to post about things I'm pretty sure of and in a way to be as helpful as possible (without compromising the PD Tholians project).

And I never said the Tholians couldn't develope the ability to build new ships. I just pointed out that they haven't had the opportunity. And there IS specific reasons they don't have the ability or knowledge to start with that will be made clear in PD Tholians, I promise.

BTW: Above for some reason I typed SHART. That's supposed to be SHARP and in "...a few sharp Tholians."

Lastly, I value input. I am listening and even you post is alerting me to address certain question carefully and clearly. The general data on Tholians is near complete and the reasons for things already drafted but I'll make sure to see that input from people is addressed. That is the spirit of how SFU products are done and I will honor that. OTOH, there is the element of surprise that needs to be maintained with an eye on sales.

By Derek Myers (Exile) on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 06:01 pm: Edit

I understand better now, thanks!! And I whole heartedly agree with not giving out any secrets! But I'd love to contribute in any small way into the development of the Tholians. I have always rooted for the Underdog, and a group or refugees, fleeing for their very lives, settling in another galaxy and struggling to survive....well they are about as under and you can get.

What I would like to see is the Tholians develope a new class of ship, something to better match them. I'd like to point out what would appeal to me as a player and purchaser of SFB.....Tholians ships have always been fast and manueverable....I'd keep those 2 key assests, the only change would be to integrate a better phaser suite, or even have a partial heavy weapon refit....let's face it, Tholians, webs, phasers, speed.....that sums them up. Heavies are great for strait-up battles, but sometimes you just need phasers.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 07:06 pm: Edit

PD Tholians will not close the door on further development as it was specifically requested of me to write PD Tholians (and Selts) from the point of view of Y204 (at the latest!). This is primarily because SVC has not written the direction of the history beyond that point and doesn't want to commit anything of that time period to publication yet. SO, X2 is indeed generally open.

I'd point out that I will not be developing a lot for the late Y190's either. I need to provide basic data but these eras will be somewhat more open than what has been already established for the GW and earlier eras.

Most of PDT is worked out and will be a very rich background for developing the later eras. Once everyone understands how the Tholians are so different it will be easier to create ideas for them that fit the history.

I'll make another note on a strategic level regarding a ship yard in Tholian hands. During the development of the CL28 story (Come Into My Parlor) I had many discussions with SPP about its implications. Really there is no other time such a plan by the Tholians could have been attempted. The Tholians understood at a certain level that the Klingons were under pressure from other sources and so the idea was to "allow" the Klingons to gain knowledge of a new class of Battleship and convince them that any attempt to invade the Holdfast would require too much force to invest. Argon station had recently been attacked which the Tholians interpreted as a possible precursor to a second invasion.

Now here's the point, the Tholian BB plans had flaws in it. Were these intentional so as to not present the Klingons with a threat to their territory? If the Klingons felt the Tholians were capable of building a new class of Battleship that could strike on their Southern Boarder they would have to turn and strike with everything they had available, immediately. So the there had to be a carefully crafted balance of a ship capable of defending the Holdfast but not presenting a huge threat to the Klingons.

Even in Y204 should the Klingons gain knowledge that the Tholians have a new ship yard capable of building more Neo class ships they would immediately have to destroy it. Such a treat could not be allowed to stand. And by the Y190's the Klingons have a much greater understanding of just who the Tholians are and they REALLY don't want to let them make a come back.

If the Tholians remain a non-threat to the Klingons then they are relatively safe. They remain an irritant to the Klingons but are perhaps a bit less hated than before for the Tholian involvement in the LMC campaign. Further, the Klingons will also see that war against the Tholians would require dealing with the Federation; something they aren't interested in for the time being. Of course to bolster their own position the Klingons share a great deal of what they know with the Federation (who also gain considerable info on their own). The Tholians can attain their goal of survival best by maintaining the rigid security of the Holdfast and not being a threat to their neighbors while they play one neighbor off the other.

But then there are other ways and directions one can take to ensure the survival of their species.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 07:12 pm: Edit

I'd also like to point out that the Klingons, having experienced the problems with allowing a race to build up it's forces (e.g. the Vudar) they would not make that same mistake twice.

They would attack, Federation be damned.

By Derek Myers (Exile) on Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 08:20 pm: Edit

I see, is there anything I can do to contribute? I'd be more than happy to produce a series of ship designs for submission, if they would be necessary or appreciated....let me know. If you need a sounding board to bounce ideas off of, I volunteer, just email me.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 09:39 pm: Edit

Well, I've been working on this for over a year and most of the people and work is in place.

There is a good chance that PD Tholians will open the door to other products and then there may be wide areas for submissions.

I will keep you in mind Derek. I've got a ton of hard core writing to do (that is getting everything is its proper format and minor details hashed out). I've already got a pretty good support team I've been working with or will be working with that I've worked with on other projects. But I'll note your name and maybe something will come up. At this point it's all about Prime Directive so ship designs are premature. But like I said, there will be doors opened, I hope.

By Derek Myers (Exile) on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 06:38 am: Edit

Thanks. It would be great to help out and contribute!

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 12:52 pm: Edit

"So here's this relatively small group of surviving Tholians. They get their butts kicked out of their home galaxy and run like hell to get away, taking a sphere with them. "

Aside from the problem of the tactical Seltorian vs Tholian battles being horribly lopsided in favor of the Tholians even WITH web breakers, yeah sure.

I/we still haven't really figured out how you can lose a war when you have like a 12:1 kill ratio. Story has to give way to the reality of tactical combat at some point. I've seen lots of things proposed to explain how the Tholians could lose a war, but few of them that I remember make to much sense from a tactical or stratigic stand point.

Items:
***Seltorians breed really quickly and hence have more people to work.***

True. But they don't live long either. They also have a rather vulnerable reproduction structure since if the queen dies, they have a serious problem till they get another.

***Conjector that the Seltorians had drasticly more ships than the Tholians to begin with***

This makes no sense at all, no matter how complacent you are. At best I'd think they would be at equal numbers. Recall that complacent or not, the tholians are still a rather paranoid bunch and have had other races revolt before.

The only practical way for it to happen is if the Seltorians move one or more ship yards to a slightly extra galactic or otherwise very very remote place and build up a secret fleet there. This would have to be a insanely huge fleet compared to the Tholians given the kill ratio I/we have found. The bigger the fleet, the higher the chance that someone will notice it.

*The Revolt took a year or less*

I may be wrong on the exact time frame of a year, but that just goes against logic. If the tholian home galaxy is about the size of the F&E map, it would take longer than that to get from one area to another, nevermind the whole place going down at once.

Suppose though, you positioned the Seltorian ships all the way around the galaxy and had them all attack at once. That could work maybe but you still wouldn't reach the center of the galaxy within the time frame.

**My personal conclusions***

Certain parts of the background story need to be changed or at least expanded upon to make the Tholians lose.

Other races allied with the Seltorians almost certainly need to be included simply due to the nature of a revolt. I mean you look for allies if you are trying to start a revolt.

The war had to either take longer than a year or had to use some meathod of transport that is faster than galactic standards. Which isn't inconcivable given the Tholians tech level. Probably not likely though. Increasing the lenght of the war I'd think would actually favor the Seltorians slightly due to their expected higher production rates. Kinda like the feds vs the Klingons.

Actually thats probably not a bad starting point for F&E for the Tholians and Seltorians. Give the Tholians a scedule simular to the Klingons (who they seem to mimic somewhat closely in their home galaxy) and the Seltorians one simular to the Federation. Obviously the money wouldnt' be the same but it's a rough start at least.

There is also the matter of the tech gap between the Tholians and the Seltorians. In GURPS terms it's like two entire tech levels with much of the Seltorian tech being given to them by the Tholians. The web breaker is invented by someone plugging a widgit in backwords (basicly). Given that, I rather suspect the Seltorians may not nessicarily understand all of the tech that they use. Following a manual to fix it or build it is one thing; understanding the physics behind how it works is another. Now I'll grant that there are very likely some Seltorians that do understand it since they can design ships. But given the life spans and information involved, the vast majority of the Seltorians probably don't know much more than "Push the button to make this work".

Given the tech differance it probably would seem odd that the Tholian fleet that arrived here is TL12. But remember; Tholians are basicly cheapskates lol. If they can pay less to do the same job without a huge performance loss they probably will. Hence, if you primarily have to do police duties and keep an eye on the most advanced other race (who is more or less TL12), just build better TL12 ships than everyone else and use them instead of building state of the art ships that will cost lots more to build and maintain.

Despite what certain other people may say, I personally belive that what was stopping the Tholians from having X2 (or the equivlent) ships wasn't technolagy. It was economics and one of the big reasons for the Seltorians to want to, and NEED to, defeat the Tholians as quickly as possable was to prevent the Tholians from building X2 level ships in any signifigant numbers. I imagine they probably had blue prints for them somewhere but all their production was setup to produce the Tl12/X0 ships. They would effectivly have to setup an entierly new shipyard to build the more advanced ships and this window would give the Seltorians time to beat the Tholians. Even if the Tholians could build some modern ships without a new shipyard, the number of them would be insignifigant. They would also be primary targets for the Seltorians to try and destroy at all costs.

Anyway, I need to end this post for now.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 01:18 pm: Edit

Brezgonne;

I disagree with the 12/1 kill ratio - we never found it that high. But other than that I totally concur with your assessment. Given equal numbers/equal BPV, a Neo-Tholian fleet dominates a Selt fleet, the web breaker not withstanding. I've only played the Scenario where the Selts assault the Tholian strabase (don't recall the name) once. But it was a walkover for the Tholians. Given those defenders, the Seltorian fleet (which IIRC already includes two Dreadnoughts and I believe two BCHs as well, is simply not close to being strong enough to win.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 02:12 pm: Edit

DKT: All your questions will be answered. The details are set, SVC is excited about them and there will be no changes to the background (one of my self imposed absolute rules from the start). The background will, of course, be greatly expanded.

I will tell you all this, I am begining the history from first space flight (with some mention on pre-space flight era). There will even be a full explaination on where the new data has come from.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 02:20 pm: Edit

Daniel,

---

Quote:

***Conjector that the Seltorians had drasticly more ships than the Tholians to begin with***

---

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 02:36 pm: Edit

Alan: 12:1 is basicly the kill ratio our group has had in bugs vs Tholians. You kill ratio will probably vary depending on how your Local tholian plays but not by much I'd expect.

Carl: The Seltorians were not solely responsable for supressing revolts (at least in terms of ships; standing ground armies were probably a completely differnt matter) as I understand it. Given the paranoid manner of the Tholians as well, I doubt they had more then equal ships. At least openly. Notice I did mention that it's possable and even likely for them to setup shipyards in very remote places.

Loren: Thats cool. Note I said changed or expanded. No sense chaning printed stuff if you can just explain what you really ment in something later. I'm not trying to be a pest or anything. Just trying to make logical sense of the information I currently have and what I have seen actually playing the battles and ships. No matter how good the story is, if when you play it you get a entirely differnt result; then something needs to be expanded on more to explain why. Expansion is good :D

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 03:52 pm: Edit

Well I thought the idea about the background was that they were fewer, but kept in check by the web tech. Once they got breakers the balance tipped decisively to the Selts favour.

But SFU is not the most well thought system.
As has been mentioned the idea of a one-year revolt is baffling.
Heh, one could say it: Don't believe everything you read

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 04:21 pm: Edit

What's wrong with having all Seltorians galaxy-wide initiate a surprise attack at the same time? Target the strong points first, only where you know you can achieve victory, and the rest of the war is mop-up. Given that the Seltorians are probably used as boarding parties on every base smaller then a sphere it wouldn't take long to capture the bulk of the Tholian infrastructure.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 04:30 pm: Edit

It was actually very difficult to tie together so many historical articles that were developed separately. I was able to find one thing that did so very well. It's all surprisingly simple at the core.

I mentioned the continuity thing just to let you guys know that I'm not trying to make up my own story but to expand, logically, the story already told in bits and pieces. There were large areas where I was able to be creative but it all goes back to the root of the existing story. I feel honor bound to be true SFB and its player base.

To develop the end I had to develop the beginning and the journey to the end. The whole story is really two stories. The M81 story (which is told in fair detail) but also the story of our MW Tholians which is the primary focus of the book (the Tholians players will use).

Hopefully, the M81 story will be compelling enough to launch future SFU projects. That would be my dream but first things first!

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 05:05 pm: Edit

I obviously can't say anything, but I've had a tiny bit to do with Loren's work, and I know something about it. All I can say is trust him; he knows what he's doing and his history will make sense, work out, and not break any established background. It's pretty neat, in fact. I'm sure you will all be pleasantly surprised.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 06:00 pm: Edit

I've had a story about the Tholians (along with a ship and two scenarios) that I wanted to submit for a long time. It concerned the one and only Tholian "fast cruiser", but unlike most fast cruisers this was a late GW development. The Tholians decided they needed something fast enough (strategically) to compete with X-ships when they ran into problems building their own X-ships. (Note that Tholian X-ships have a YIS slightly later than their neighbors.) They built one fast cruiser, based on an old design concept, but which the Tholians couldn't build until after the Neos arrived. The ship was a technical success but by the time they got it to work they had also figured out how to get their X-ships to work, so they never built a second one.

Based on the outline of the story and a description of the ship, SPP informed me that the ship I described probably couldn't be built. I revised the ship, and parts of the plot, to cover his objections but never got around to checking with SPP to see if the revisions would work. I've thought about finishing the story and submitting it (along with the ship and the scenario) but have never gotten around to that, either. Now I'm worried that some of the Tholian scenes (i.e. most of the scenes in the story though there are several Klingon scenes and two each short Fed and Romulan scenes) would contradict some of Loren's work and would be unacceptable for that reason.

As they say, he who hesitates is lost...

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 09:10 pm: Edit

Well, mid-2006 was the planned date for PDT. I hope it will still be that. I've still much physical work to do but it will be ready.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 09:35 pm: Edit

Young Vader; All things will become clear.


adm