To try to continue (eyes are not recovering from the dilation as quickly as they have in the past, and squinting at the screen is tiring).

Suppose the LR attacks two Freighters (a very small convoy of two small freighters). He can expect that freighter A will do all it can to support freighter B (which if it is me, that means I use the transporters of the two ships to move the eight boarding parties around to fight off the boarding attempts). This gets the LR into a number of problems. He needs to knock out both ships phasers, and both ships can do repairs, and this takes more time, hence more likelihood that "help" will come. (Of course a DBR, CR, or BR would have no problem with this situation).

Add a third freighter, and things get even worse.

And the above all assume standard small freighters with no skids (and no small armed freighters, or small armed freighters with skids).

And, as I have noted before, an armed freighter adds the additional complication that if it can fight you off while accelerating, it can disengage by acceleration.

Orions do not like to mass a lot of ships (mass your Orions in a sector, and the police and fleet will have an easier time tracking them down and destroying them) very often. Most raiders operate alone in a given Franchise (making them harder to track and giving them more volume in which to hide). They mass only when the payoff is worth the risk (like ambushing a local patrolling cruiser, or advance knowledge that the police have gathered their Q-ship assets into one convoy, the elimination of which would create a period of better operations for the Orions).

Remember, the thing we are looking for is an Orion Pirate CAPTAIN'S Campaign. Not a "CARTEL OPERATIONS CAMPAIGN". Calling for the Orion to be able to call up extra ships means it is not an Orion Captain. How often is the Captain in the "Captain's Campaign" or "Frigate Captain's Campaign", or etc. allow them to call up a second ship?

But, to answer the quesiton, a Light Raider will always attack a single small freighter. Always. He will have to be careful in his approach simply because he is not going to know what kind of freighter it is until he is relatively close, and going to point blank on a Q-ship could be very bad. But he has to knock the freighter out as fast as possible (every turn he delays is another turn closer to the cops showing up), but does not want to be damaged (you might consider just how much fiction relies on the old rub of tracking a ship by the trail its damaged engines left (or radiation emitted from the fire on its hull, or what have you).

To be continued (eyes still not done undilating).

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 05:39 pm: Edit

So how about a list like this for "targets":
(Divided Red/Black in a deck of cards). Possibly 1-2 targets are in each mission (since some are rather wimpy for even a single LR to fight)

R1: Small Freighter
R2: Small Freighter w/ Skid
R3: Small Freighter w/ Ducktail
R4: Small Tramp Steamer
R5: Small Tramp Steam w/ Skid
R6: Small Q-Ship
R7: Small Armed Freighter
R8: Small Freighter w/ 2 Security Skiffs (Corporate shipment)
R9: Small Armed Freighter
R10: Small Hospital Freighter
RJack: Small Exploration Freighter
RQueen: Small Liner

B1: Free Trader
B2: Free Trooper (colony ship)
B3: 2-3 Security Skiff + MCR (Corporate Excecutive, ransom) 2 National Guard fighters
B4: Prime Trader (Corporate Executive)
B5: 2-3 Secuirity Skiffs + 3-4 Large HFS (heavy freighter shuttles/VIP, yatchs) Must cripple then tow off-map.
B6: Small Armed Cruiser w/ concealment panels (bounty hunter)
B7: 1-3 Armed Priority Transport + Security Skiff
B8: 1-3 Executive Priority Transports + Security Skiff
B9: Luxury Fast Transport
B10: Small Repair Freighter
BJack: Free Salvor

Reinforcements, possibly received between T5-8.
1) Police Ship
2) 6 Class-1 fighters
3) 3 Medium Bombers
4) Frigate/Heavy Police Ship
5) 65 BPV of forces
6) 85 BPV of forces

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 06:58 pm: Edit

To try to continue (eyes are not recovering from the dilation as quickly as they have in the past, and squinting at the screen is tiring).

Suppose the LR attacks two Freighters (a very small convoy of two small freighters). He can expect that freighter A will do all it can to support freighter B (which if it is me, that means I use the transporters of the two ships to move the eight boarding parties around to fight off the boarding attempts). This gets the LR into a number of problems. He needs to knock out both ships phasers, and both ships can do repairs, and this takes more time, hence more likelihood that "help" will come. (Of course a DBR, CR, or BR would have no problem with this situation).

Add a third freighter, and things get even worse.

And the above all assume standard small freighters with no skids (and no small armed freighters, or small armed freighters with skids).

And, as I have noted before, an armed freighter adds the additional complication that if it can fight you off while accelerating, it can disengage by acceleration.

Orions do not like to mass a lot of ships (mass your Orions in a sector, and the police and fleet will have an easier time tracking them down and destroying them) very often. Most raiders operate alone in a given Franchise (making them harder to track and giving them more volume in which to hide). They mass only when the payoff is worth the risk (like ambushing a local patrolling cruiser, or advance knowledge that the police have gathered their Q-ship assets into one convoy, the elimination of which would create a period of better operations for the Orions).

Remember, the thing we are looking for is an Orion Pirate CAPTAIN'S Campaign. Not a "CARTEL OPERATIONS CAMPAIGN". Calling for the Orion to be able to call up extra ships means it is not an Orion Captain. How often is the Captain in the "Captain's Campaign" or "Frigate Captain's Campaign", or etc. allow them to call up a second ship?

But, to answer the quesiton, a Light Raider will always attack a single small freighter. Always. He will have to be careful in his approach simply because he is not going to know what kind of freighter it is until he is relatively close, and going to point blank on a Q-ship could be very bad. But he has to knock the freighter out as fast as possible (every turn he delays is another turn closer to the cops showing up), but does not want to be damaged (you might consider just how much fiction relies on the old rub of tracking a ship by the trail its damaged engines left (or radiation emitted from the fire on its hull, or what have you).

To be continued (eyes still not done undilating).

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 07:21 pm: Edit

Now, simulating sometimes he attacks and sometimes he does not (to continue a long response to Jeff Tonglet) is something that has to be left to his choice. If he thinks the small freighter is more than he can handle, he can cancel the scenario then and disengage. But generally you do not want to simulate sometimes. The scenarios have to be the ones where he attacked, the fact that once he got into it he found out it was not something he wanted to tangle with is just that. That might simply be that when he rolled in to attack, he chose photons and rolled straight sixes on all three of them at range two . . . and well the freighter turned out to be a small armed one with skid and a ducktail and the damage to the shield the phaser-2s did plus the time it would take to reload was just too much. Afterall, the cops are coming and it will be two turns before any photons are ready again. (Which again is why an LR optimized for piracy will probably take phasers in its option mounts.)

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 07:39 pm: Edit

Michael John Campbell:

As noted, the idea is an Orion Pirate Captain Campaign, and hiring extra ships is just not part of a Captain's campaign. He is supposed to just be operating his own ship. While he might have mission assignments that require him to act with other ships, you would have to consider balance very carefully.

Consider: I have to act with another Orion, so either I am running both ships (and thus will not care how much damage my partner takes), or I will have to find a third player to run the other ship and have extra victory conditions for him so that he does not simply sacrifice his ship for me.

Like I said, it is a Captain's Campaign, and as much as possible you want to avoid complicating it by allowing the player to bring in extra sacrificial ships. He needs to run his own ship and do the things an Orion does.

As to your idea of varying the value of cargoes to buy things, does a campaign really need to be that complex? Is there a problem with "You need to capture 750 cargo boxes in 15 missions". If he captures all 750 in the first ten missions, then he just does not have to do the other five as he has already won his promotion to CR. Sure, I can see making some cargoes worth more (I have said so based on what is carrying the cargo), but varying every single cargo and adding complexity to a campaign for complexity's sake does not seem a good idea to me.

You are, of course, free to write up your own idea for the campaign and to submit it, and maybe the full presentation will win people over (I am quite willing to be overruled by the majority saying that yours is the best way to do an Orion Captain Campaign), but so far I am (myself) unimpressed and not interested in what you are pushing for it.

But again, if a majority says I am wrong I am not adverse to being corrected. The object is a campaign that will reflect what an Orion Captain goes through, and will be interesting at least from the standpoint of having to develop his tactics and gain an understanding of what his job is.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 07:52 pm: Edit

Richard Wells:

As noted, I would like to start with the player running a small Orion ship. Heck, someone might want to start with an Armed Freighter, or Free Traitor, or Even a Slaver, and work up to an LR for that matter.

But Small Orion ships do not attack tugs, not even Light Tactical Transports. Especially if they are escorted.

I think to make the campaign work (and it would be something that the player could start, do a few missions, and then come back to later obviously) it would have to have targets tailored to the smaller ships first. The idea is to work your way up to the Enforcer. And as noted this can vary depending on year. The player would not (I do not think) actually do any missions in the Enforcer (he is just working his way to that seat in the campaign . . . at least in my view). Prior to Y165, the progression is pretty much LR, CR, CA (i.e., two steps). After Y165 things get hairy and you could go (for example), LR, DW, CR, BR, CA, BC. Or you could have multiple Tracks (LR, CR, CA, or DW, BR, BC).

Now, convoys. Obviously an LR does not want to tangle with a convoy unless the Cartel has ordered it, but an LR still running around in Y180 might have the mech link refit and add the firepower of a pair of PFs, at which point a small freighter convoy is a target, but replacing a PF would cost a lot of cargo points, so even though they are more expendable than your ships, you have to be careful not to lose them.

So, obviously running such a campaign prior to Y165 would be simpler, but coverying Y165 on gets more and more complex with more and more options.

A bigger ship (CR for example) is going to go after large freighters and small convoys. The basic rules still apply (do not take internal damage, crush the target, get the goods, get out of dodge). But you have stronger shields, more firepower, and more energy (it is a lot easier to tractor one small freighter and drag it off without having the other small freighter pace you to stay in range to help the freighter you have tractored). BRs are, of course, even better at this, and again either is better if they can have PFs.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 08:03 pm: Edit

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Quote:

5) I can think of literally dozens of possibel targets, but the number one most likely possibility is still an unarmed large/ small freighter without commanders options. For hecks sake, MOST freighters are not going to be paying for a passel of extra BPs to sit around, eat their fill and make good money if the freighter is toting a cargo hold of metal bars or wheat equivalent.

---

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Quote:

Remember, he does not want to handle it by doubling the engines. If he doubles the engines everytime he encounters a freighter, he is losing.

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By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 08:11 pm: Edit

Scott Tenhoff and you run into the complexity problem I have mentioned. The thing is that the it is not as simple as your table suggests:

R1: Small Freighter

OKAY

R2: Small Freighter w/ Skid

OKAY

R3: Small Freighter w/ Ducktail

OKAY, BUT: where is the small freighter with a skid AND a ducktail?

R4: Small Tramp Steamer

OKAY

R5: Small Tramp Steam w/ Skid

OKAY where is the Small Tramp Steamer with a skid AND a ducktail? Where is the Small Tramp Steamer with just a ducktail?

R6: Small Q-Ship

I usually used Jokers for the Q-ships.

R7: Small Armed Freighter

OKAY, BUT: Where is the small armed freighter with a Skid? Where is the Small Armed Freighter with a Skid and a Ducktail? Where is the small armed freighter with just a ducktail?

R8: Small Freighter w/ 2 Security Skiffs (Corporate shipment)

Sorry, but the mission is not a Skiff Mission, the key phrase is "local police and patrol craft", since the freighter cannot service them, they simply do not have the range accompany freighters are distant missions. In any case, even if they could, you would still have to deal with the variation of the small freighter having a Skid, or a ducktail, or both, or being an armed variant, or being and armed variant with a skid, or . . .

R9: Small Armed Freighter

OKAY, but where are the Skid and Ducktail variants?

R10: Small Hospital Freighter

Personally, I tend to lump this as a freighter, and you would still have the skid and ducktail problem.

RJack: Small Exploration Freighter

While the Special Sensor would add electronic warfare, I generally would ignore this, and if you did not, you would still have the skid and ducktail questions.

RQueen: Small Liner

Personally, I tend to lump this as a freighter, and you would still have the skid and ducktail problem.

B1: Free Trader

Okay.

B2: Free Trooper (colony ship)

Personally, I would just lump this as a Free Trader.

B3: 2-3 Security Skiff + MCR (Corporate Excecutive, ransom) 2 National Guard fighters

No. Stick to cargo.

B4: Prime Trader (Corporate Executive)

No. Stick to cargo.

B5: 2-3 Secuirity Skiffs + 3-4 Large HFS (heavy freighter shuttles/VIP, yatchs) Must cripple then tow off-map.

I do not think so.

B6: Small Armed Cruiser w/ concealment panels (bounty hunter)

No, this is a system defense ship and the Orion would only encounter this if it was attacking a planet it was defending.

B7: 1-3 Armed Priority Transport + Security Skiff

See previous comment on skiffs. See no reason for a convoy of APTs, cannot recall more than one APT ever appearing in any scenario.

B8: 1-3 Executive Priority Transports + Security Skiff

See previous comment on skiffs. See no reason for a convoy of APTs, cannot recall more than one APT ever appearing in any scenario. Stick to cargo in any case.

B9: Luxury Fast Transport

Would stick to cargo.

B10: Small Repair Freighter

WOULD just treat this as a freighter.

BJack: Free Salvor

Personally, I would just lump this as a Free Trader.

Reinforcements, possibly received between T5-8.

TIME Element for the arrival of help needs to be variable, and the table needs to reflect appropriate opposition depending on the Orion ship being used. A Police Corvette versus a Light Raider that is trying to avoid internal damage works fairly well, but its arrival needs to be such that the Orion has some chance of subduing the freighter and transferring the cargo, but will feel the pressure to do it fast. But a Police cutter will simply be trashed by a CR under the same conditions, and a Frigate may not be tough enough. A "Joker" pulled for the reinforcement reflected a Light Cruiser coming for the LR (back in my campaign), or a Heavy Cruiser for the CR (again back then), so that the Orion could not simply decide to pick off the "police ship" and then loot his victim. And the Campaign has to have the option of being run BEFORE THERE WERE FIGHTERS AND BOMBERS, so I do not wand to pin that down. And obviously later on the reaction might be Interceptors or PFs.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 08:48 pm: Edit

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Quote:

OKAY, BUT: Where is the small armed freighter with a Skid? Where is the Small Armed Freighter with a Skid and a Ducktail? Where is the small armed freighter with just a ducktail?

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By Phil Shanton (Mxslade) on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 10:05 pm: Edit

If your doing a table or drawing cards; how about making the following scenarios a part of the campaign:

SG29.63
SG31.0 Don't you just hate it when it happens to you while your out trolling for prey.
SG33.61 or 64 with the other ships adjusted to the appropriate size.
SG35.0
SG52.63
SH35.0
SH47.64
SH58.0

Just some thoughts.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 02:10 am: Edit

SPP: The Orion pirates are noted in scenarios for not just playing it safe but sometimes chasing the big score. I think a campaign that lets the Orion player choose how to run his vessel will prove more entertaining in the long run. Plus if things go wrong early, the riskier options give the Orion player a chance to return to profitability.

It may well be more lucrative long term to chase down the Breton fishing fleet but capturing a treasure galleon provides the chance for a knighthood. How successful a title would "Grand Theft Auto" be if players were restricted to shoplifting from the 7-11?

I tried to break elements down to what the Orion's scanners should see at a distance. The Orion should have some idea on what is moving nearby and thus pick a preferred target. Going after the really tough targets whose combat BPVs are double that of the Orion's chosen ship should be very stupid but the Orion that pulls it off qualifies for legendary status.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 12:04 pm: Edit

Michael John Campbell:

In re: "If Forecastles and Breakwaters ever come to pass, would the campaign need to be rewritten again?"

See "Operation Unity Update" in Captain's Log.

The point is to avoid having to do repeated updates by at least covering the possibilities that exist at the time the campaign is written, rather than my having to take another chunk of time out of my week to answer questions by the players who will ask where the missing items are.

Richard Wells:

As noted, you are free to write up your own campaign submission and send it in. Even if I do not like it, SVC might. The point is not that I am exercising a fiat "NO" on anyone's ideas. I am offering up what I see as the problems and the concepts that need to be covered.

As noted, I think an Orion Pirate Captain Campaign would be a nice thing to have. But I am obviously odd in that I am quite content to play either an Orion attempting to mug freighters and get the goods, or to play the freighter side and try to hold out until the police arrive. I have, afterall, done so in the past. (Admittedly, the Orion in the one time I ran the such a campaign really did not understand what all a freighter might do, and some of the options, like T-bombs and NSMs, are no longer available to freighters.)

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 12:05 pm: Edit

How successful a title would "Grand Theft Auto" be if players were restricted to shoplifting from the 7-11?

Heh, that actually made me laugh.

Sory if this has been mentioned before and I'll spend some time reading move of this topic but I had this thought from Richards post.

Besides scanners finding targets a good Pirate is going to operate from intel sources. The more experience he has and more success he has the better his intel will be. To start he will probably get intel only from the Cartel (with a slight chance of intel from another source). As time goes on he can develope his intel sources.

Perhaps a chart could be devised that would allow him to have some level of control over his targets as he progresses through the campaign.

By Nick G. Blank (Nickgb) on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 03:50 pm: Edit

Use one die roll to determine the hull (small freighter, large freighter, free trader, etc...) and a second die roll to determine additions (nothing, skid, ducktail, skid+ducktail, other options?). Just adjust the required die result to match the likelyhood of each result you want. Maybe use such a chart to determine what commander's options the target has, so not every freighter has the same extra stuff everytime.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 06:58 pm: Edit

Nick Blank:

I preferred the card system rather than a die roll because the cards can be checked after the scenario is played, and the Orion is kept in the dark and has to be prepared in case the freighter he is running up on is in fact (in my case) a "joker" (i.e., Q-ship). Further, the cards allowed for the possibility of the Orion encountering multiple Q-ships (not at once, of course, but that the Joker might appear in more than one drawing of the cards during the campaign in the "ship type" pull).

Further, the goal of the Orion had to be cargo acquisition, simply destroying freighters gains him nothing in terms of loot (which makes his job just a little harder than an commerce raiding frigate whose goal is the destruction of the freighter period).

But as noted, anyone is invited to write an Orion Pirate Captain's Campaign . . . while mine (way back when) envisioned 15 attacks on freighters with the goal of attaining 750 spaces of cargo, I am not trying to force anyone else to not go with say 5 scenarios and 150 spaces of cargo. Nor am I adverse to mixing in a few special scenarios (perhaps randomly) from those that already exist (defend the Cartel base or what have you).

But what I am looking for is the Orion Pirate CAPTAIN'S Campaign, with the goal of rising within the cartel to better ships.

Even my campaign back then assumed that the 15 attacks on freighters were not the only ones that the pirate made in a given career, but were the ones where "something happened" or "he took a chance" or "for some reason the freighter resisted". Those are reasons why I am adverse to denying the freighter the use of Commander's Options because these are the exceptional cases in this Pirate's career.

But again, if someone writes a good campaign that SVC likes, it will be published no matter what I think, my big thing is that I think we should have an Orion Pirate Captain's Campaign, and it should be tailored to reflect what an Orion Pirate Captain does THAT IS DIFFERENT from a "Fleet Captain", or a "Frigate Captain", or a "Survey Ship Captain". And to me, that means getting loot and not getting hurt, and hurt is anything above shield damage and boarding party casualties.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 09:39 pm: Edit

I capturing loot is a goal of the campaign then perhaps an ecconomic system of sorts is in order. Mostly, this is handled between scenarios.

First, to move up in ranks you exchange cargo for BPV. You then attempt to attain enough BPV above your costs to buy your next ship (including a reduced amount for your trade-in).

Costs include rapairs to your ship, commanders options replacements and opperating costs (a "cartel tax" as a given expense between each round).

Trade-In value equals your ships BPV less 10% and the cost of any repairs. You may include any remaining commanders options in this amount (but you would lose 10%) or take such options with you (provided this isn't more that your new ship can handle per any maximums allowed by the any rules).

10 spaces of Cargo allow you to save 1 BPV for your bank. Repair points cost (?)1 BPV per 5 repair points. Cartel Tax is 10% of your bank deposit per round.

Some Cargos are more valuable than others. At the end of the scenario roll one die for each group of fifty spaces (and one die for one partial group if there is one). A result of 1 doubles the value of that group of fifty spaces. A 6 result halves the value.

Note: Naturally 10 spaces of cargo could be considerably more valuable than one BPV but not all cost are being accounted for. This system is only to simulate the pay off of success and provides a way to earn better ships. This should not be construde as the actual process in which a pirate Captain opperates (which is far more complex).

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 09:46 pm: Edit

One could buy intel as well. A chart could be used with a cost amount and a die role. (basic cost plus extra cost gets you a -1)

This might require the freighter player to choose two separate convoys and provide long range tac intel on each. The pirate player then chooses which one he want to strike.

Another item on the list could be a close range tac intel report (the more BPV spent the closer the tac intel report is)

Alternatively the Pirate Captain may choose to save his cash and takes what ever comes his way.

Perhaps there should be a way to attain intel points by capturing crews are entire ships.

By Reid Hupach (Gwbison) on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 11:08 pm: Edit

Just a thought

This is about playing one captain with one ship.

Bounce this thought. Try each player runs one of the Cartels starts with several ships has to delegate how many to his missions. The campaign ends in x number of turns. The player with the highest profit margin (cash + ships) wins.

Kind of an F+E campaign just for Orions.

Its gots lots of potential for some fun and actual player interaction, from messing in each others teritory to working topgether to tackle really tough targets.

Think about it

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 12:39 pm: Edit

SPP,

The pirate's campaign sounds interesting.

Perhaps (T4.0) Piracy Patrol could be updated and included, but written from the pirate force's perspective.

I looked at the survey captain's game in S2. It had a set of secanrios that the player worked through. Is that the type of format you are looking at for the pirate's campaign's (with appropriate scenarios to piracy)?

Time frame: I am sure everyone will have different desires as to when. A few scenarios during the post GW period would be interesting. One thought is competitor's to the Orion cartel system attempt to take over areas. Provides dueling opportunities different from engaging police or a races naval forces.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 07:49 pm: Edit

Loren Knight:

There are going to be enough die-rolls (affected by various shifts I am sure) during the scenarios, I do not see (myself) a need to make all of a given Orion Captain's efforts for naught simply because he rolls a "6" on the value of each of his cargo captures. A thing he cannot affect by superior maneuver or better planning or by capitalizing on an opponent's mistake, simply bad luck.

To all:

I, myself, remain flabbergasted at the preceived need you seem to have that cargoes be defined monetarily as added (to me) dirt that the player has to go through. Is it not enough that he has to get in there, get the goods, and get away? Does he have to roll dice to determine value of what he got, then convert it into funds to buy things? I just do not see it (myself), but to each his own.

As noted, I am trying to get someone to create a campaign. I am not trying to force you to do it the way I did, but some of you seem fully committed to doing ANYTHING BUT A Captain's campaign (at least to me).

Well, you can each take your ideas, create a campaign, share it with each other to be reviewed looking for loopholes (and to see if others feel that there is too much dirt in the mechanics of your ideass) and then submit it. Heck, even a "Cartel Campaign" can be developed and submitted if someone thinks they have a good idea.

But all I am myself looking for right now is a simple Orion Captain's campaign. Personally, I would like it to be something where a Captain can work his way up to enforcer, but it might simply be "one year in the life" with rules to modify the various interactions if the chosen ship is an LR, or BR, or CR, or what have you.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 08:37 pm: Edit

SPP: It would be easy enough to leave the die roll out of the cargo value. I just though it might be interesting to add a bit of luck to the whole affair. I wish you had noted that he has a better average of gaining value than losing value since a die roll of one doubles the value whereas a six only halves the value.

A typical cargo box holds fifty space points right? An LR then can hold 75 points in its 1/2 sized holds. That's two roles, and will average the regular 7.5 BPV. The worst value (two sixes) ends up as 3.75 BPV. The best role of two ones would equal 15 BPV for the bank. A more likely role would be a 2-5 and a 1 or 6. The second role for 25 cargo points has even less effect.

The point of my idea is to add some between scenario planning. This can be as fun as the scenarios themselves. A pirate captain has a lot to deal with. Unlike a Fleet Captain who has a huge government supplying all his needs (and some of his wants) the Pirate Captain get only what he manages himself. So, to reflect the career of what a Pirate Captain goes through I thought a little between scenario management would be interesting. Making the between scenario decisions can have a bearing on the behavior during the scenario. The Pirate Captain may know he needs just a couple more BPV to get a Double Raider and might risk an extra turn of transporter action to get it. The NCL has only just entered the board after all. There's still a turn to run.

I too would like to see the Pirate Captain work his way up. Buying BPV to buy bigger ships was just my idea of how to get there (rather than just having a scenario success ladder). My way WOULD probably require more scenarios to be played. It would be a longer term campaign.

All this time I thought we were all brainstorming ideas. If you want someone other than you to write a campaign then... well, I'll think about it. I've got a lot on my writing docet.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 05:39 am: Edit

I'd make all cargo equal, Steve, as you say.

One thing not touched on is what happens when your ship is bigger than an LR. I think it may be an idea to have an encounter deck that is the same for all the ships the pirate might fly. This deck represents the total convoy activity in the cartal/sector. For an LR, 2/3 of the encounters might involve saying "Erk, no way". They simply ignore it and buzz off when the convoy hits their sensors. This will be counted as a scenario, but then the LR could be given more time to upgrade to a CR than a CR to a BR, as it will have fewer targets it can fight. This will also reflect the fact that an LR is cheaper to run and maintain, so can afford more missed opportunities.

Having a different encounter table for each ship class will not only be "unrealistic", but also add considerably to the complexity of the scenario write-up.

By the way, I suspect that we will have to have a more draws for the encounter. The first will be for the basic convoy/freighter make-up, the second will be to define whether the ships are bog standard freighters, or are armed, Q-ships, or have skids/ductails etc. SPP seemed to emote that doing it in one draw would be tough. You could even have a third draw for defining nature of reinforcements and a fourth for the time when they come. These third and fourth draws could perhaps have modifiers depending on how many ships the pirate has heavily crippled or destroyed previously (which would annoy the police more as that means freighter captains would actually be being killed). All draws could also have modifiers depending on the year. Perhaps the pirate gets 3-6 scenarios per year, and then the year advances? After all, there will be refit time, shore leave, and a lot of lurking about waiting for the convoys.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 12:51 pm: Edit

Loren Knight:

The primary purpose of the topic is to try to get someone to create an Orion Pirate Captain's Campaign. Naturally that might involve brainstorming as part of the topic. I am quite aware that while the system I used back in the mid-1980s worked then, it would not work now because too many things have been added since then that my system could not account for.

As to cargo, I fear I mis-understood your concept in part. I assumed that you were rolling one die for all the cargo the Orion got in that particular scenario, rather than (as now appears to be the case) rolling one die for each of (apparently) the Orion's cargo boxes (three on a light raider). But still, an Orion dogged by bad luck on his cargo die rolls would lose the campaign while another Orion Captain who otherwise was doing very poorly could wind up with consistent bonazas simply on his treasure die roll. That just does not seem like a good concept to me.

See, I can envision the Orion Pirate Campaign being played simultaneously by a group of four players, each trying to work his way up to the Cartel Enforcer job. All start with LRs (for example), and Player A consistently fills all three of his cargo boxes, but rolls half value (making his 75 points of cargo worth only 37.5), while Player B consistently fills all three but only rolls standard value (worth 75), Player C consistently only fills two of his cargo boxes, but rolls double value all the time. Player A and Player B are probably more skilled than player C, but are losing simply because of the cargo value die rolls.

David Slatter:

The problem is that the system I invented back in the mid 1980s simply cannot account for all the things that are possible now.

Back then, I only had to deal with:
Freighter, Large
Freighter, Small
Freighter, Large-Armed
Freighter, Small-Armed
Free Trader
Armed Priority Transport
Federation Express
Large Q-Ship
Small Q-Ship

Most of the cards were simply freighters. Encounters with armed versions were less common than for the normal freighters. Encounters with Free Traders were about the same chance as encountering an armed freighter with Fed Express and APTs even rarer.

Like I said, I had forgotten a lot about the Campaign I ran for my friend, but all of the things were not decided by a "single card". The type of "cargo mover" was determined by one draw (freighter, APT, Armed Freighter, Fed Express, etc., I ignored "exotic" freighters like Mine Layers, survey, etc., and would ignore cruise liners and etc. for the basic campaign myself). A second draw determined size (large or small freighter, draw made but ignored if the result of the first draw was an APT or Fed Ex). A Third draw determined the police response (against the Light Raider at that time, usually just one Police ship initially with the chance of something else arriving shortly after, maybe simply another police ship). A fourth draw determined if it was a Q-Ship (card was drawn, and if it was a Joker and the first draw was for a freighter, and the second draw for a large or small freighter, whether armed or unarmed, it became a Q-ship of the appropriate size, i.e., small Q-ship replacing small freighter or small armed freighter, large Q-ship replacing a large freighter or large armed freighter, but if the first draw resulted in a Fed Ex or APT this card was ignored).

It was something like the above, I no longer remember for sure. I seem to recall that the Suite had an impact on things, there might have been only three draws with the Suite determining large or small freighter status. I just do not remember. But I do remember that it was not all determined by one card. The cards were placed where the Orion player could examine them afterwards, and in the order drawn. I think it was possible that I set it up so that if the Joker was drawn as the first card, the next card determined the size of the Q-ship, or something like that. I know I had some system for the Joker being drawn at any time, and something to cover both jokers being pulled, but I no longer remember.

I do know that I never worked out the draws for Convoys for when my Orion would be in his CR (after earning it), because the campaign ended when he was bluffed by the freighter. And of course playing the freighters in the various of the scenarios we did play caused me to develop my freighter doctrines.

But my system would not work now because of the Duck Tails and Skids which would need to be factored in, ships that might have a duck tail, ships that might have a skid, and ships that might have both, and armed variants of the above. You cannot just ignore them, although you could make them rare, but they need to be there and you have to have the chance of encountering any of the combinations. It makes it too easy for the Orion if he KNOWS that he will never encounter a particular combination (armed freighter with a skid and a duck tail for example).

As to having a different encounter table for each ship class being "unrealistic" I disagree. I see the tables as representing encounters over an extended period of time. Light Raiders look for the isolated freighter, Raider Cruisers look for the small convoy. While a Raider Cruiser could go after isolated freighters, the point is that such are zero challenge for a CR. The campaign would, as I have noted, reflect extended operations and thus focus on those situations that were of note. There is zero reason to play a CR bouncing a lone small freighter as even a small Q-ship has zero chance of surviving his attack. For there to be any challenge for the CR at all, it has to attack a small convoy. But an LR that attacks small convoys that CR can handle will literally find itself in a losing proposition.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 12:54 pm: Edit

Michael C. Grafton:

A quick note to say that your post was seen, but I just did not see anything to reply to.

By Ken Humpherys (Pmthecat) on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 01:53 pm: Edit

I finally found some of my notes on the LR captains game that was run in my area.
You got to choose 1 one mount from your operational area. Cargo points looted = 1 VP
There were 2 card draws per scenario:
First card was for type of freighter/APT/FT/FedEx.
[Note: Clubs=-1 to reniforcement turn, diamonds=+1 to reinforcement turn, hearts no modifier, spades=Robot freighter(only 1 VP per cargo box.)] Armed freighters, APT, FT gave x2 VP. x3 VP if taken from FedEx or if Q-ship was present. x5 VP for cargo taken from Q-ships(Bragging rights.)

Second card was race, size/type and turn (value +1 , face card = T5 roll 1 in 6) of reinforcement.

Jokers were always a Q-ship and the other card was the "second card."

The # of freighters was dependent on on ship class
LR vs 25 cargo or 1 ship max
DW vs 50 cargo or 2 ships max (frex: 1 SAF,APT,FT,FedEx and 1 S-F OR 1 L-F)
CR vs 75 cargo or 3 ships max.
DBR vs 100 cargo or 4 ships max.
BR vs 150 cargo or 6 ships max.
CA vs 200 cargo or 8 ships max.

The VP total to raise to next ship class was roughly 10 times BPV

There were other scenarios that could also earn you VP but I don't know what they were because I do not have that info in my notes.

The charts used were made before J2 so no skiffs, bombers, skids or duck-tails. I am working on updating to make current.