Mike, thanks for your comments. I should have noted an important distinction. I am not searching for a consensus on everything, I am searching to document common ground on anything. If nothing else the effort will generate discussion topics.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 04:19 pm: Edit

Based on discussion I'll remove 19. I don't want to call it rejected though. Disputed sounds good.

I have not found a second yet saying that any race is likely to purposely place 100% P1 on their X2 hulls so I’ll leave that Pending.

Mike has suggested replacing “X2 ships have an advanced structural integrity field that mitigates internal damage” with "X2 ships will have advanced systems to mitigate damage". Are their any seconds?

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 04:22 pm: Edit

#	Category	Status	Detail
1	Requirement	Accepted	GW; X1 and X2 must be balanced by BPV to play against each other
2	Requirement	Accepted	The X2 period should be fun
3	History	Accepted	X2 Ships first appear in Y205
4	History	Accepted	The major conflicts during the X2 period are referred to as the Trade Wars
5	History	Accepted	GW ships remain the bulk of the fleet and remain in production Y205-215
6	History	Pending	X1 ships remain in production Y205-215 but make up a dwindling percentage of the fleet
7	History	Accepted	X2 ships start rare and slowly increase as a percentage of the fleet
8	History	Pending	X2 ships are less expensive to operate and maintain then X1 ships
9	History	Pending	There is a neutral zone
10	History	Accepted	The Tholian Home Galaxy never deployed X1 technology to the fleet
11	History	Pending	The Xorkaelian Invasion is out of scope for this discussion
12	Hull	Accepted	GW and X1 ships cannot be upgraded to X2
13	Hull	Pending	X2 ships will be general purpose designs, not optimized warships like X1
14	Movement	Accepted	X2 ships are strategically faster then GW ships
15	Movement	Accepted	X2 ships can operate longer and further from base then GW and X1 ships
16	Movement	Pending	X2 ships are better suited to making the trip to the LMC
17	Movement	Accepted	X2 ships cannot move more than one hex per impulse
18	Weapons	Pending	X2 ships operate the longer ranged P5 as their primary offensive phaser
19	Systems	Disputed	X2 ships will have the ability to detect the Andro RTN
20	Systems	Pending	X2 ships have an advanced structural integrity field that mitigates internal damage

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 04:43 pm: Edit

Tos,

I'll second Mike's suggestion.

(Edit) And "Disputed" is a better term than "Rejected".

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 07:06 pm: Edit

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Quote:

I think we can all agree that X2 Trade Wars will be published before Xork Wars and that the Xork Wars will be built upon the foundation we create in the Trade Wars.

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By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 07:28 pm: Edit

Oops, that should be 12Ph-5s than 10EW.
The differences creates a more flavoursom situation.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Friday, December 23, 2005 - 01:34 am: Edit

MJC: That would probably send me ballistic if the various races were adopt anti-Xork optimized designs prior to seeing the first Xork.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, December 23, 2005 - 02:08 am: Edit

Well...In the post Andro period, the primary concern is money.
So if you can develop a powerful ship and then money ( and the treaty) means:- that several systems ( like using four disruptors instead of six ) get set down as "refit Ready" then when the Xorks come, the Admirals will probably go with the knee-jerk reaction;" Dust off the old blue prints and stuff the treaty; we're invoking the refit proceedures."

I'ld like present an X2 ( if at all possible ) with a dynamic technology situation so that players can have X2 with a Y205 feel and X2 with a Y225 feel. I think it'll appeal to more people that way.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Friday, December 23, 2005 - 03:10 pm: Edit

MJC, I think you're trying to design the Y205 ships with a Y225 invasion already in mind.

Note to the gallery: Don't plan on refits for any Y205 proposals. It eliminates confusion when evaluating the designs.

Besides, a new XCA should already be the best cruiser the races have built.

READ MY LIPS: NO NEW REFITS

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, December 23, 2005 - 03:39 pm: Edit

MJC, I agree with Jeff. The Alpha races do not know about the Xorks. Please avoid using too much fore-knowledge in your designs.

If you must think about Xork designs, ask yourself if you really think it will be fun to fly 400 BPV cruisers, even against the Xorks. Most others here have indicated they do not feel ships that cost this much are appropriate or fun, in any era.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, December 23, 2005 - 06:30 pm: Edit

Agreed. Not only do the Alpha races not know about the Xorks, we don't know about them. It is no more reasonable to assume that refits will be needed than it is to assume we have any idea what the Xorks will be capable of. But more than that, worrying over the Xorks is just muddying the waters. It's hard enough to design a playable X2 without trying to work in refits and such that may or may not be necessary.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, December 23, 2005 - 09:11 pm: Edit

Mike, I think it's safe to assume that the Admiralty and ship designers would consider that there could be another future threat from outside of known space. It happened twice, the ISC and the Andros. They have no clue who or what they are but would have to consider the idea of what they would do IF something were to attack again. Before in history you knew who your enemy was and could watch him for a while. But the ISC and the Andros should have been some level of a wake up call that all the activity in the Alpha sectors is attracting the attention of outsiders.

Then there is the possibility that in ten years any one of the Alpha race might go on the War Path again. Maybe one race makes a great technological break through.

In the original design there would be some allowance for refit packages. They already know that when war happens they find the need to refit ships. They HOPE they won't need to but why not drop in a couple empty conduits just in case you plan to add something later. Then you don't need to tear the whole ship apart.

Further, you satisfy the more paranoid people in your government by saying "Look, we are producing ships to serve a more peace time role but are still some of the most powerful ships ever built. They are not built to the maximum capabilities of the hull frame and to do so would be an unwarranted expense. However, should the need arise these ships are refit ready and can be upgraded quickly if war were to break out."

In game terms, this is only a background anecdote and the SSD would be just the plan ship. Of course, in order to not have to reprint the ships the final SSD's probably would have some refit info on them. Remember the mess before all SSD's had refit data and shaded boxes?

Still, the first task IS to develop the basic hulls and that is not done yet. Talking about the Xorks is a waste when all that can be speculated is a "Possible Unknown Future Threat.” The word Xork should be dropped from these forums, IMO (I know you agree... I'm agreeing with you and the others and reiterating it).

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, December 23, 2005 - 09:18 pm: Edit

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Quote:

The Xorkaelian Invasion is out of scope for this discussion

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By Herb Diehr (Direwolf) on Saturday, December 24, 2005 - 01:58 am: Edit

I agree with the fellow who stated the Romulans would keep P-I's for the trade war period. The cost of research would be saved and the chance would always exist to get it through trade or espionage. Devious folks, they are.

After 215, they will certainly need P-V's.


Herb

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, December 24, 2005 - 04:48 am: Edit

I would like to say that bulk of my reasoning for a refit is because the Galactic Powers KNOW that the treaty will break down "someday".
It's better to have the refits ready for GWII now than thirty months after the next round of total-war breaks out.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Saturday, December 24, 2005 - 07:55 am: Edit

On the other hand, if a handful of nations detect the "uber" ship of another nation, they might gang up and attack to prevent an arms race. What if they're not in a position to engage in an arms race and the expenditure of a combined attack to knock down the "uber" guy is less than the expenditure to equal or exceed the "uber" guy?

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Saturday, December 24, 2005 - 09:39 am: Edit

Couple of things about that reasoning, MJC. You are assuming that the powers that be have the capability to produce your uber ship right off, but choose not to. I say differently; that they are building the biggest, baddest ship they can manage at the time. Later, perhaps, they can upgrade them as they find new ways to do so. Again, consider a real-world example.

In 1980 the American XM1 project to build a new tank was completed, with the M1 being the final design. It was, at the time, the best tank in the world and the best we could manage. As time went buy, it was improved and modified...not because they had planned too all along, but because we found as time went by what needed to be changed or improved. The M1IP came out first, in 1985; it had better armor. Later, the M1A1 came out. It had many, many improvements, including yet heavier armor and the upgrade from a 105mm gun to a 120mm gun. Then, after Desert Storm, we developed the M1A1 "heavy", with heavier DU armor, a different suspension and track system, and a few other minor changes. Finally, we have the M1A2; all digital, including a BDU GPS system, commander independent thermal site, and a few other Gee-Whiz items.

None of this was planned in 1980. None of it. It happened because the changes were found to be necessary or beneficial later on. If changes happen to X2 ships, that will be why.

Now, you've been lobbying for uber-ships from day one. My advice? Drop it. You won't convince anyone that such things are fun to play or reasonable. Such ships will kill X2 right out of the gate, because people will not want to play them. Oh, sure, you'll have a few that like munchkin-stuff that would...but most would consider it a failed product and not buy it, just as they consider Supplement 2 a failed product.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, December 24, 2005 - 10:17 am: Edit

#	Category	Status	Detail
1	Requirement	Accepted	GW; X1 and X2 must be balanced by BPV to play against each other
2	Requirement	Accepted	The X2 period should be fun
3	History	Accepted	X2 Ships first appear in Y205
4	History	Accepted	The major conflicts during the X2 period are referred to as the Trade Wars
5	History	Accepted	GW ships remain the bulk of the fleet and remain in production Y205-215
6	History	Accepted	X1 ships remain in production Y205-215 but make up a dwindling percentage of the fleet
7	History	Accepted	X2 ships start rare and slowly increase as a percentage of the fleet
8	History	Accepted	X2 ships are less expensive to operate and maintain then X1 ships
9	History	Accepted	There is a neutral zone
10	History	Accepted	The Tholian Home Galaxy never deployed X1 technology to the fleet
11	History	Accepted	The Xorkaelian Invasion is out of scope for this discussion
12	Hull	Accepted	GW and X1 ships cannot be upgraded to X2
13	Hull	Accepted	X2 ships will be general purpose designs, not optimized warships like X1
14	Movement	Accepted	X2 ships are strategically faster then GW ships
15	Movement	Accepted	X2 ships can operate longer and further from base then GW and X1 ships
16	Movement	Accepted	X2 ships are better suited to making the trip to the LMC
17	Movement	Accepted	X2 ships cannot move more than one hex per impulse
18	Weapons	Accepted	X2 ships may operate the longer ranged P5, GW and X1 ships cannot
19	Systems	Disputed	X2 ships will have the ability to detect the Andro RTN
20	Systems	Accepted	X2 ships have a mechanism that mitigates internal damage

Good start. I changed the P5 wording to allow it into the Accepted column. Does anyone have anything else to add to the list?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 09:33 am: Edit

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Quote:

None of this was planned in 1980. None of it.

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By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 11:51 am: Edit

Dude, please don't try to argue with me about the M1. I spent 12 years on tanks, all of them in that model in various forms. I assure you, none of the modifications we have these days were planned 25 years ago.

R5 is not the same as Sup.2. R5 is battleships, yes...but they play just like normal ships do, only bigger. A battleship who wants to go speed 30 uses all his warp power to do so, leaving precious little for anything else. They do have more weapons, but like smaller GW ships, they remain a challenge to play because they can't do everything they want all at once. That XD7 you posted can do whatever it wants with little to no thought required from the controlling player. That's no fun, and a big part of what killed Sup. 2.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 07:18 pm: Edit

Mike, Mike, Mike! You're being so unreasonable! MJC has the right idea. I think you should give in to the uber side. Join MJC. With your combined powers you could end this destructive conflict. The Vorlon has forseen it.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 03:53 am: Edit

Firstly is Uber really the right term!?!
8 extra warp engines plus 2 extra boom warp.
One extra Ph-1.
Drop 2 Disruptors.
All shields go up by 8 ( in line with engine increase ).
Add another 2 Lab boxes.
ASIF & S-BRIDGE ( not sure if I could get away will full X-Aegis but it has no Caps-to-SSReo...hence the expenaded shield ).

End of story (for the Y205 vessel).

Considering where the BPV is it's not really all that much more capible ( offensively ) than the DX it superceeds and we must remember that it is suposed to be an entire GURPS tech level above X1.


Secondly, I'm not sure if the speed 30 with all your warp paradymn is automatically a must have.
Y ships don't have it and they sold well.
X1 ships don't have it and I've never heard anyone complain that X1 vessels have too much warp power ( although I've complained about the Fed DDX having too little ).
Fast ships and War Cruisers don't have that paradymn and people seem to love those ships.


Thirdly, the Little or No Forethought is somethiong of the X2 I'ld like to create, that is, little or no forthought for the first battle pass and then being up you know what creek without a paddle if you need a second battle pass.
This creates the X2 we seek of being more advanced than before but not willing to take the fight to the enemy.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 08:33 am: Edit

Does someone else want to take this one? I'm tired of beating my head against a wall.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 09:13 am: Edit

Goood. Goooooood, my young apprentice. An SSD? Much like MJC's, you must realize he can never be turned from the uber side.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 12:03 pm: Edit

Brodie, thank you for showing me the way. Mike, listen to Brodie. I now known what needs to be done to make X2 a huge success. I'll work up an SSD and post in the SSD topic.