Here are my thoughts on skids and duck-tails:
In year 165 roughly 10% of freighters had any.(from CL23)
By year 185 nearly probably 80% had some and 20% had both.
Number is the number of cards in deck that give this %

year	none	skid	ducktail	choose 1	both
		Hearts	Diamond	Spade	Club
160	~94%	1.9%(1)	1.9%(1)	1.9%(1)	0(0)
165	~89%	3.8%(2)	3.8%(2)	1.9%(1)	1.9%(1)
170	~79%	5.8%(3)	5.8%(3)	5.8%(3)	3.8%(2)
175	~65%	9.6%(5)	9.6%(5)	7.7%(4)	7.7%(4)
180	~44%	15.4%(8)	15.4%(8)	13.5%(7)	11.5%(6)
185	~19%	21.2%(11)	21.2%(11)	19.2%(10)	19.2%(10)
190	0%	25%(13)	25%(13)	25%(13)	25%(13)

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 03:30 pm: Edit

To cover some other ground.

I do not like "kidnap the executive" or "hold for ransom" options for the Orion because they are either to simple, or too complex. Grabbing one executive, or one transporter beam of executives, or even two, or three, or four (after all, you can transport the hostages at the non-Combat rate), is a one turn operation once the ship is captured. It does not compare to the amount of time it would take to grab 75 spaces of cargo. And then you get into arguments about the value of the hostages, and jut how many hostages can a given Orion ship take? How big do you imagine the brig (or 'guest area') of a Light Raider is?

Myself, I do not want to go there. I prefer to work with the known tangibles, i.e., that a cargo point is a cargo point and an Orion Cargo box holds 25 such points, and (G25.0) tells you how fast you can transfer cargo from the freighter to your own ship.

I am also not enamored of special scenario rules that say you have to gather so many information points, or have so many crew units/boarding parties searching the ship to find the executive who is hiding (a'la Princess Leia in opening action in Star Wars). I know no one has said that, but it would follow that if you are looking for the one CEO on the ship he would be able to hide.

But if you do not allow that, you are just back to the scenario being too easy relative to the transfer of cargo, so I tend to hang with the cargo transfer situation as more nerve wracking for the Orion as he needs to pack his holds and get gone.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 03:58 pm: Edit

SPP,

For "find the CEO" or "rescue the hostage" I would think the RPG games would work for those types of scenarios (The Corporation contracts an Orion merc-for-hire team to go in and get their CEO back).

By Ken Humpherys (Pmthecat) on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 04:40 pm: Edit

As you have 1-5 min tops to search a football field sized ship with many multiple hiding spots, for 1 or 2 people (with about 100-200 people aboard for liners to hide among) I think even sophisitcated sensors will not help that much.

I see Orions boarding with 30-40 people (10 at a time) sacking the control room for the cargo manifest, targeting the high priced stuff and beaming it off (in 10 cargo point quantities) then bailing at non-combat rates (using the freighters transporter(s) to assist the last 2 operations. I also expect to lose 10 people with another 10 wounded [half of casualties can be wounded acording to (G9.23)] if the ship is guarded.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 07:02 pm: Edit

Ken Humpherys:

I disagree on some points.

First, after the ship is secured, additional personnel can be transported over at the non-combat rate, as well as recovered at the non-combat rate.

Second, I would say that the rules for "vandalism" could be used by a ship under attack to disable its own transporter(s) if it thought it was going to be captured. There is also the minor point that a second result of '4', or a result of '4' after a result of 3, 10, or 11 on most freighters (without skids) hits their only transporter in any case. There is only on transporter on most freighters, and it generally gets destroyed (in my experience).

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 07:03 pm: Edit

Joseph R. Carlson:

That someone might develop such a thing for the role-playing game, I have no problem with, but I do not find it appropos (myself) to an Orion Pirate CAPTAIN'S CAMPAIGN.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 07:54 pm: Edit

SPP,

I agree. Going in if you are detected you loose. The escape phase; prevent the Orion from disengaging.

Does an adapted "Piracy Patrol" have any interest for you in this campaign?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 07:58 pm: Edit

SPP: You now understand my concept but I had never envisioned multiple side by side cometition.

So can the cargo value variance thing. Since most Pirate ships won't be able to hold ALL the cargo on even a small freighter suffice it to say the pirates grab the best they can and all cargo is then equal in value... unless you are capturing the entire vessel, in which you would then role for each cargo box (and "donate" the hull to the cartel for tax. Then again even then it's just another level of complexity that perhaps isn't vital.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 04:44 am: Edit

SPP.

It's true. A small freighter or small Q has no chance against a CR.
But the CR still doesn't know when or if the reinforcements are coming.

Still, if you want to have different encounter tables for each ship, it would be much more efficient to use the same on and simply have a modifier. i.e. use only the ace-10 cards in the deck, and add ? 3 if you have a CR, there being some tougher opponents for a net 11 to 13.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 10:15 am: Edit

Joseph R. Carlson:

Note the following is all my opinions. As I have noted, SVC is always the final arbitor on things being published.

I have no problem if two campaigns come out of this, one a "Piracy Patrol" Campaign in which the player takes a pirate ship and performs a number of sequential missions typical of such a patrol. The other, the "Captain's Game" in which the player tries to rise to the Cartel Enforcer. Nor would I mind if each borrowed a scenario or concept from the other, so long as both basically reflected the operations of Pirates. Also note that I simply do not consider the idea of the Orion Player being able to control extra ships to be a good one, as he must take all the risks with his own ship, not have other ships to use as pawns to accomplish his tasks.

Loren Knight:

As a general concept, I favor the transfer of cargo being part of the operation. If you just go with the idea of capturing the freighter and the scenario ends, there is again, no challenge. Figuring out how to capture the ship, efficiently transfer the loot while being in position to stave off the police, and not double the engines (which reduces the time you have to stay on patrol by burning fuel and spare parts faster, not to mention the additional crew casualties). In simple terms think of not doubling the engines as part of the challenge. Taking damage is a bad thing as you have less access to repairs than the police and fleet do (you have fewer bases, and almost everything you do is "distant patrol" since you leave the base to go to your "Franchise area" and then have to return to the base from your Franchise to get repairs and etc.).

NOTE: I make the assumption that an Orion ship would have places to hide its ill gotten wealth until a Cartel Freighter came through to collect it rather than the LR (or CR or what have you) returning to base after each score. The cargo bays of most Orion ships are too small to consider any other option.

David Slatter:

I am not sure what you are getting at. Perhaps an example?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 11:29 am: Edit

SPP: That's why I directly required they use of your "bank" money to make repairs. The goal is to move up to bigger ships. You buy a bigger ship with your bank money. If you risk taking damage or double warp engines that directly takes from your bank and slows your progress. This is even more of a factor in a multi-player campaign you mentioned. It also gives a before and after to each scenario.

Regarding Capturing: I think is most cases transfering cargo is the prefered option as it is naturally easier. I assume ALL Pirate Campaign scenarios would have a time limit. However, if a player CAN figure out how to capture a cargo ship and get it legally out of the area (disengage) the he should have that opertunity. But just towing it off the map wouldn't suffice. He'd have to get it compleatly out of the area so perhaps a line of two about how to disengage with captured units might be good. It should be really hard.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 11:36 am: Edit

Of course, the ship I would want more than any other (for a time anyway) would be a Salvage Cruiser.

I wonder if there should be some sort of ability to hire out as a mercenary. This could be handled by charging the Pirate player for any internal damage to the non-player ship (to prevent him from just pushing the Fleet ship and staying out of it) with no pay if that ship gets destroyed and little pay if it is crippled. Balance it with sufficient rewards for success and the player might risk a little damage to achieve the goal (moster scenarios would be most fitting here I'd think. Both the Police and the Pirate have an interest in getting monsters off the shipping lanes!).

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 11:50 am: Edit

OK Steve. A breif example of what the first draw might be like. Subsequent draws might define that some or all or the freighter have skids, ducktails, are Q-ships etc, or those could be handled using a different suit.

So, this is what the encounter result might look like for the club suit, using just the Ace-10 cards (no JQK).

Ace - small freighter
two - small freighter
three - Express (if fed) else small freighter
Four - small freighter
five - large freighter
six - Large freighter
seven - two small freighters
eight - small freighter and priority transport
nine - Ore carrier
ten - three small freighters
eleven - two small and one large
twelve - Two large
thirteen - Two large and a priority transport
fourteen - Priority tansport and police ship
Fifteen - Large freighter, small, and police ship.
Sixteen - 3 large and 2 small.

LR - no modifiers.
CR add three to the draw for force composition.
BR add six to the draw.
year Z or later - add Y to the draw.

Of course, I may be slightly off in what is a good challenge and a good mix of ships in the ecounter table, but I hope you get the idea.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 12:18 pm: Edit

Loren Knight:

There are several factors and it gets back to why I consider a cargo point largely to be a cargo point (although even I make allowances that better guarded or fast transit cargo might be worth more). I do not see a point in converting cargo points to dollars. I do see a point that repairing a hull box might cost fewer cargo points than repairing a bridge box, but cargo points are basically cash.

I also see that the more damage you accumulate, the COST OF ANY GIVEN REPAIR WILL COST MORE. If Loren Knight has to avail himself of the Cartel's repair facilities to fix two warp engine boxes, it might cost him ten cargo points. If Steve Petrick has to avail himself to repair the same two warp engine boxes for the third time, it might cost me 20 cargo points.

As to hauling off freighters, no. Not a good idea.

Think carefully and I am sure you will see why.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 12:26 pm: Edit

No, I don't have to think too much. Besides being slowed down a great deal and possibly being tracked by various mean a captured freighter doesn't reload it's holds and this might violate that delicate balance of live and share the bounty that pairates survive on. Start killing people and the cops have to up their activity and you cause problems for the whole Cartel.

So, what, if you capture a Freighter and run off with it you get a bunch of points but game over?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 12:37 pm: Edit

The reason I converted Cargo Points to Cash was because at some point there needs to be a conversion. I felt having ALL cargo points available would be too much too fast and not take into account other factors of operation. So a percentage is kept for that which directly applies to the campaign: Repairs, Moving up, and Cartel Tax (which you can put off but at a cost). Too much available BPV and players will move up too fast. I think it should take at least a couple successes before they move up from an LR.

Somewhere there needs to be a conversion to BPV and Repair cost. I made it One to One but you keep a percentage only for these needs. I suspect that you would convert multiple Cargo to BPV and Repair. I felt the percentage conversion was more realistic but it's not terribly important where the conversion takes place. Yours requires special tables (I think) where as mine used a conversion formula and the exsisting tables: the MSC, repair cost table, commanders options table (and drone costs), and Orion Option Mounts table.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 01:48 pm: Edit

Loren: Why bother with the conversion? It just creates an extra math step. List everything in terms of cargo spaces. If the Orion botches a mission and captures 18 cargo spaces but must pay 15 cargo spaces to the cartel for franchise fees and pay another 84 cargo spaces for repairs, then the Orion runs a significant deficit for that one scenario.

(If I recall the old campaign I played in that had a similar pirate concept, we used 2 cargo spaces to pay for each repair point. But then, we aimed for a more agressive style of campaign compared to others.)

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 02:16 pm: Edit

Loren Knight:

Sigh. In simple terms: Create a rule that allows the Orion the option to disengage the freighter (the choice you imply he should have with your line "However, if a player CAN figure out how to capture a cargo ship and get it legally out of the area (disengage) the he should have that opertunity.") without making it the standard thing the Orion will do.

You do not want to go there. Keep it simple. The Orion's job is to way lay the freighter, transfer 75 points of cargo, and get out of dodge, without taking any internal damage (including by doubling engines) from the freighter or any police ship that arrives. Allow enough extra scenarios so that an Orion that has a problem has an opportunity to recoup.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 06:44 pm: Edit

SPP: I agree and that's what I was trying to imply in my 12:26 PM post.

Richard Wells: I bother with conversion because all the charts in SFB are BPV based. Why make charts all over again with Cargo value when they already exist as BPV charts. But then I pointed the specific reason out in my 12:37PM Post. All in all it should take about sixty seconds to count your cargo you've captured (probably already counted during the scenario) and do the quick math. We SFBer's are generally good at math so whats the fuss? Choosing how you spend the BPV might take longer but that is something we are ALL already very good at and most of us enjoy.

The idea is to move up to bigger ships until you are the Enforcer (a Battle Cruiser or DN?). Players in the mean time might wish to buy better options for their option mounts and additional commanders options. Buy less of these things and you get more saved in your bank to buy the next bigger ship. But by having less of these things you might not capture as much cargo. So using that T-Bomb is going to set you back 4 BPV. If it help you get 20 then it's a smart move. You should have to buy replacement shuttles too.

This lets players manage their supplies. Good management might push you to your goal better. It's really not that hard to handle. It's almost all a between scenario thing and can really add a lot of fun to the scenarios being played since you have to consider the materials you use (unlike a Fleet Captain who only needs to justify the materials use and gets a free replacement, if available).

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 10:46 pm: Edit

Loren: If each cargo space generates 5 credits and each BPV point costs 15 credits, the end result is the same if each BPV requires 3 cargo spaces. No matter how you look at it, one needs to collect 300 cargo spaces past expenses to purchase an AR. (Numbers chosen as examples, not necessarily for any other purpose.)

Players have to track cargo space values. Converting those values into some other measurement which in turn has to be converted into BPV and repair and other things saves nothing compared to directly converting cargo spaces to BPV and repair and charging cargo spaces directly for any other expense. Adding an unneeded extra step (especially one fraught with the possibility of mistake) will not enhance playability.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 11:03 pm: Edit

A direct conversion to BPV is fine. 10 cargo nets one BPV for example.

After each scenario you spend as much or as little as you like on expenses. They include, tax (deferable but at a charge), repairs and options or save as much or as little as you like for future purchases including a new ship.

I fail to see what's so hard about that. Sure 10 cargo might actually be worth MORE than a single BPV but you also have more expenses than what is only pertinant to the campaign. Those are not the focus so they are ignored and so 10 cargo nets one BPV that you can use for the campaign.

Converting to BPV allows players to use a system they've already been using for... ever.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 11:05 pm: Edit

Richard, I think you misunderstood me somewhere. My wording may have led you to think I want a double conversion. I don't. Straight Cargo Points to BPV is what I've always intended.

Sorry if I mislead you (and others).

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 08:13 pm: Edit

One way of having multiple ships is in multiple player competition with each player still controlling his own ships.
That way the question of who takes the lion's share of the damage can be resolved between the player's themselves.

You could then remove the possibility if one player is playing by having rule that says, remove all the Jokers before dealing if only one player is playing...or some other card of choice.


On increased costs of repairs.
What about, you get a free overhaul, but once you do every general repair costs tripple the purchase price as the Cartle doesn't like captains who get their ships bangged-up.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 11:09 am: Edit

Not to be forgotten, and I am still inviting and soliciting for an Orion Pirate CAPTAIN'S Campaign. If something else also pops up, all well and good.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 04:13 pm: Edit

SPP question,

Why not have the SAC available, it has cargo (just like a Q-Ship) 5 to be exact, so it could be used in a similar role as the S-Q, it is just very obvious that it's armed verses the fact that the S-Q hides the fact.