Archive through January 10, 2006
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Archive through January 10, 2006
Thanks for calling me an arrogant @$$ in so many words. I may be forceful at times, but I'm not arrogant. I haven't had one thing I've submitted to ADB become accepted yet, so I know my place.
No, my frustration was in when people kept bringing up the same objections when they'd been answered by several people several times. It's as if people just weren't reading the posts.
I continue to enjoy Jessica's phaser ideas.
I'ld like to direct people to Rule G13.41 and say that launching an autonomous; PF, Drogue or Fighter, is probably the best bet for a launch whilst cloaked ability.
Once the whatsit is out of the cloaked vessel it becomes a legitimate target and is also the entirity of the threat it poses, thus the cloak doesn't need disrupting and the whole thing becomes far easier to deal with from a play balance perspective.
The solution is simple.
Make a new thread ( this one is probably titled wrong anyway ) built specifically to discuss the Ph-R.
This way we won't have seven different "Romulan concepts" bunched together and can look at the Ph-R more specifically with respect to five different types of Ph-5 or what have you.
Brodie,
Did you want for your proposed phaser to be a P6, but fire both offensively and defensively? Just checking to make sure I understand it.
One possiblity would be for the Roms to use the standard X1 phaser, in pre-X numbers. For example a 2X war eagle might carry four of these; two FAL and two FAR. But, they could be fired when cloaked as P2's with a -1 shift. That ain't great, but then again if you're firing cloaked it ain't too shabby. This would be Rom only...the Orions couldn't use it. Such tech would require that the Roms mount said phaser in small numbers to balance this ability.
With a -1 shift, a P2 chart doesn't do much past range 3 unless you're highly lucky. With four such phasers, a perfect hit at range 8 would yield only 8 points...nothing serious to an X ship, or even a late GW one. To do any real damage you'd have to get up close, which is where a ship trying to nail a cloaked vessel would be. So, it gives them a chance to hit back while cloaked but only when the enemy is really right on top of them.
Opinions? I know it's different that what was proposed at first, but might be worth exploring.
I dug up Jessica's proposal and table posted 12/29/05 11:34AM.
Quote:Phaser-R. Romulan design. Fires w/o penalty under passive fire control; fires through cloak at small penalty (say, shift of 1 or 2) and one-impulse flashcube effect. See note below.
NOTE: Yes, the Ph-R and Ph-H use the same chart – something between Ph-2 and Ph-1. In the case of the Ph-R, it may not be strong enough, in which case bumping the Ph-R up to the Ph-1 chart would probably be the way to go; I’m not sure how defanged the thing needs to be to balance it against being able to fire through cloak.
Comments:
1) The devil is in the shift. If the die shift is equal to the cloak level, +0 = uncloaked, +5 = fully cloaked then its still an autohit weapon with an average of 3 damage at range zero when fully cloaked, which I think is enough.
2) This should not be a firing mode of another phaser type, it should be the Romulan main defenseive phaser.
3) There should be no advantage gained by having active fire control.
4) In addition to being able to track through a cloak the weapon should ignore all EW as an ADD would. This gives it a small advantage over a P1 in exchange for reduced punch.
5) Opponents fire on cloaked ships at a major penalty. It seems unreasonable to me to create a phaser that can fire under cloak and do more damage then an equivilent phaser firing at a cloaked unit would do.
6) To allow this gives the Romulan too much incentive to cloak making games even longer then they already are. I think a fire-under-cloak rule could be balanced, but even a balanced proposal that encourages a Romulan to cloak would still be a bad idea.
Note: This message was composed last night and not posted until now. If it con
Mike,
I'm confused by your post. Do you mean a +1 shift rather than a -1 shift (to the dice roll) or do you mean no DRM but -1 on damage (per phaser)? Either would give 8 points maximum with four phasers at R-8, but they differ in other ways.
Tos,
I disagree somewhat with you about Romulans and cloaking being "not fun". Certainly sub-hunting can be tedious under some circumstances. But it doesn't have to be. And being able to fire with reduced effect while cloaked might make it more interesting, depending of course on the details. It does introduce a new dynamic that players aren't used to dealing with. And besides, a Romulan who never cloaks at all is just another Gorn.
+1, Alan. My bad...I'm just used to "-1" being bad. So yes, a plus one shift on the die roll would be what I mean.
RBN: Maybe I'm the ass. I appologise for misinterpreting the situation and I should have just let you answer Mikes question. I didn't mean to call you an ass although on reflection it certainly reads that way. Seriously, I'm truely sorry for that.
Loren, there's nothing to apologize for.
We're looking at several different ways to approach a Ph-R and this is a good thing.
Mike, in answer to your question: No, actually it is a Ph-5 and fires as a Ph-5 when the ship is not cloaked, but when firing under cloak (using Ph-5 energy requirements) it fires as a Ph-6 using Passive Fire Control rules. I definitely agree that whatever phaser would fire under cloak should be either a Ph-2 or Ph-6, you'd need to have effectiveness out to at least range 3 (if you use the PFC rules). If the Ph-R is based on the Ph-1X, then it's fire-under-cloak (I'm not going to use an acronym here) table should be Ph-2; if the Ph-R is based on the Ph-5, then it's fire-under-cloak should be Ph-6.
And yes, I think it should be able to fire both defensively and offensively. What we need to keep in mind here it the limited range for this weapon; in many (if not most) respects it will be fired defensively as tactical reality dictates. If an opponent approaches a cloaked X2 Rom with a facing down shield, he's asking for trouble. This goes back to making using the cloak a viable tactic on the X2 battlefield. You hit the nail on the head with your comment:
"To do any real damage you'd have to get up close, which is where a ship trying to nail a cloaked vessel would be. So, it gives them a chance to hit back while cloaked but only when the enemy is really right on top of them."
Tos also had a good point as regards the EW issue; given the type of sensors being used to target the Ph-R under cloak, it probably would ignore EW.
I disagree however with the notion that encouraging a Romulan to cloak is bad for the game. Cloaks are Romulan flavor. In my opinion that's a good thing. Remember there's still the potential to beam in T-bombs from 5 hexes (or more if X2 transporters are extended) as Loren suggested. Any Ph-2/-6 firing at range 5 under PFC would be using the range 10 chart resulting in an average of 2/3 points for Ph-2 and 1/3 points for Ph-6 (i.e fairly safe).
I think I misinterpreted Jessica's original post (or I just wasn't paying attention) in that I thought she meant being able to fire under cloak rather than fire during fades. All the same I like the fire-during-fade concept as well. I think the Roms would do better to have the fire-under-cloak ability as well, but fire-during-fade is quite an advancement to begin with. Jessica proposes a die shift, I propose using PFC rules. Beyond that I think it's a matter of finding the right phaser chart mix.
In the end, I don't think a fire-under-cloak Ph-R would be a game breaker in any iteration disussed so far, and I'm certain a fire-during-fade is even less so. Pre-X ships would have a hard time of it no doubt, but I think players would eventually prove that they could handle it.
MJC, I think we'll do fine keeping the Ph-R discussion here in the Ph-1 thread. No point in adding yet another thread in an already crowded discussion group.
Revisiting the all-phaser Tholian thing:
Let's say the Tholians go with an all-phaser design. Let's say it's either the Ph-5 or the Ph-1X (whichever works better with web tactics).
And in order to really give them "heavy weapon" ability with phasers, why not let them (and only them) do phaser overloads? (I'll wait until everyone's done groaning and rolling their eyes . . .) Overloads are used at close range, you could limit their use by requiring warp power to overload, and instead of drawing overload power from the regular phaser capacitor there could either be a seperate phaser overload capacitor (stores only warp power only for overloads) or give the Tholians 5pt batteries, or draw the overload warp power directly from the engines, etc.
If they do use warp power I suggest granting them double damage rather than the old-X1 1.5x damage. As an alternative there could be seperate fire-through-web Ph-T and warp-overload Ph-T. The web Ph-T could be the "workhorse" phaser and has the pulse capability (which could be anything from Ph-3 to Ph-6 to Ph-2) and can't overload. The overload Ph-T can overload, and can either fire through web (which I don't prefer) or can pulse (which I do prefer). Not sure about overload pulses though.
Another option is to make all the phasers the same kind with all the capabilities mentioned above. That could get pretty scary though. Still, it would encourage would-be intruders to stay out of Tholian space.
Anyway, I know others have mentioned all-phaser Tholians before and Jessica mentioned the fire-through-web phaser; I'm just trying to put the ideas together. I'd be interested in hearing Loren's take on this as well since he's got the inside track on the Tholians these days.
Tholians, well the PC ain't coming back because of very real reasons that I cannot atribute to only myself. Selts being a cool-air species have their PC built in a different manner. FOr Tholians to get a PC they would have to research from scratch.
My history does not go beyond Y204 for practical reasons but also for source file reasons so I can only speculate like the rest of you (aside from the PC thing).
All phaser Tholians sound fine for fighting behind web but you have to have torps in this galaxy or you're dead. The Tholians must maintain some level of offensive capability otherwise they are only capable of fighting in a defesive stance while there enemies can prepare unthreatened. The Tholians must be capable of fighting in open space else their borders will be compromised.
So, I think they will have to go with what they have but will still be a step behind the creators of thier weapons types. So X2 Tholians might employ X1 Disruptors and X1 Photons. The Web Caster is wide open for deleopement though.
I would wonder if a specialized Web Fist weapon wouldn't be useful. A long time ago I made several proposals for Web based advancements such as the Web Bunker (a sub-hex sized globular web that Tholians can dive into for protection from longer ranged fire), the Sticky-Web Fist that hit for damage but also slows you down and a few others.
I also think the Tholians are fully capable by Y200+ of advancing Phaser technology and developing the PH-5.
I've always felt the Ph-5 was the logical advancement of Phaser technology that anyone would eventually develope on their own (like rifeling is to the musket). Everyone should get the Ph-5 IMO. The exact specifics of how each race reaches the same result are probably different of course.
Loren, If the Web were improved in some substantial way, then an all phaser PC X type ship would be a logical requirement.
I don't know what the justifications you allude to are (the 'reasons that I cannot atribute to only myself' comment you made earlier), but if there were a "X2" upgrade to the web, having an all phaser defense ship available makes sense given the advantages that the Tholian Web gives to the defenders (ie the Tholians).
even if there is no improvement to the Web technology, more and better phasers is a force multiplier when used in combination with web.
I am not disagreeing with your points, but it appears to me that the potential "payoff" for the Tholians to improve their phaser tech to Ph-5 has a better likelihood of succeding than any research undertaken on such "foreign technology" as disrupters and Photons.
Unless you have some particularly wicked ideas to improve the web fist?!?! 
Well, I'm going to have to partially agree and partially disagree with Loren. I think he's right that the Tholians can't simply hide behind web. They must have some kind of open space combat capability. Where I disagree with him is that they have to have torps to survive. Given enough phaser firepower they would do fine with just phaser boats, at least for their small ships.
But I have, after having played around with some conjectural phaser boat-type X2 Tholians, reluctantly concluded that the idea doesn't work (except maybe for a very small X2 version of the PC - but not for Destroyers and up) for a different reason; scaling effects. Simply, if the Tholian XDD is a pure phaser boat with enough phaser power to be competitive against other X2 destroyers with balanced armament, it is way too strong in a fleet battle supporting web caster-equipped Cruisers. But if it is balanced in the fleet action (with web casters) it is too weak in duels. The web caster/phaser interaction induces a strong scaling effect that makes BPV very problematical. This is an issue even with ships with "balanced" armament but pure phaser boats make it much worse. I agree with Loren's suggestion (which I have also made) that Tholian torpedos remain at X1 levels, and I think that to compensate they should have slightly better phaser armament than their counterparts in other races. This will at least reduce the problem described above, especially if (as I assume will be the case) they can build only small numbers of web casters even in the X2 era. And it is a logical development for the Tholians.
Brodie;
You talk about ph-5s versus ph-1s (presumably 50% more if you go with the phaser-1 option) and wonder which works better with "web tactics". The problem is that "web tactics" is too undefined. Do you mean tactics defending a wedding cake, or do you mean tactics to use in open space with web caster ships? And if the former, do you mean against a traditional "onion peeling" opponent or do the Seltorians figure into the mix?
Cases:
(I'm assuming for this analysis that X2 phasers are not overloadable.)*
1) Defending a wedding cake against a (non-Selt, non-Andro) opponent. The key ranges are 1 hex and 3 hexes. Ships powering the outer web will be engaging "web crashers" at one hex typically. Ships hiding behind the middle ring, engaging enemies trapped on the outer ring will be firing at three hexes. At both these ranges two ph-5s are very close to three ph-1s. Other ranges are possible depending on how the battle develops, but these are the most common ones.
The phaser-1s are slightly preferable for the ship at the outer ring because it has more of them and is therefore a bit less vulnerable to phaser damage. But if a ship has to fire through a non-adjacent web (for example, a ship behind the middle web taking a shot at a ship that is outside the wedding cake - an important capability in some instances), then the phaser-5s are better. This is because the damage reduction for shooting through non-adjacent web is on a per-phaser basis. A ship behind the middle web shooting at a ship outside the outer web will have each phaser reduced by two damage points. So if out hypothetical Tholian has 9 ph-1s, it loses 18 points of damage but with 6 ph-5s it would only lose 12 points.
Conclusion: Something of a toss-up in this case but personnally I would go with phaser-5s because a Tholian that gets caught at range-1 is probably obliterated anyway.
2) Defending a wedding cake against the bugs. The Seltorians will choose a range to try to bring down the web, depending on how many web breakers they have and how much power the Tholians have available to put into the outer web. Closer in means they take more damage from Tholian phasers each turn but they bring the outer web down more quickly. Farther out means they take less damage per turn but are under fire for more turns before the web comes down. The Tholians have a complimentary choice, having to decide how much power to put into the web versus how much to put into phasers and ECCM. More power into the web means it stays up longer but more power into phasers/ECCM means they do more damage each turn.
One thing to note about Case 2 is that the phasers on the ships play a comparatively greater role, relative to the base's phaser-4s, than is the case against a "traditional" enemy. To see this, consider the comparative damage against an enemy on the outer web, who has driven the Tholians back behind the middle web and is waiting for the web to weaken. (For brevity, the following analysis will not consider the effects of ECM shifts, which would change the exact numbers but not the overall conclusions.) An enemy on the outer web is at range-5 from the base, and each phaser-4 on the base is reduced by two points of damage due to the middle web. Average damage is 13.33 points per phaser-4. The Tholian surviving ships are shooting from range-3 and have no damage reduction since they are adjacent to the only web they are shooting through. Average damage is 4.33 points per phaser-1. So the base's phaser-4s are each worth about 3 phaser-1s during this stage of the battle.
Against the Seltorians, the relative values of the phasers is range dependent. For this analysis I will assume the Selts are 10 hexes from the base, which means they are shooting their web breakers at the outer web 5 hexes away and any Tholians behind the web are 6 hexes from them. This is a plausible range for the Selts if they have sufficient web breakers relative to the Tholian ships' power, as it keeps them out of the range-5 bracket of the dfending ships. The base's phaser-4s are each reduced by 4 points for shooting through the outer web, so do an average of 2.5 points per phaser. The phaser-1s on the ships will each do 2.17 points. Instead of the phaser-4 being worth 3 phaser-1s as in he case with an enemy crashing the web, it is only a bit better than a single ph-1. While the exact ratio will depend on the range from which the Selts attack the web, it should be obvious that the phasers on the ships play a comparatively much graeter role against the Selts. And if the Selts can mass significant numbers of web breakers, they may attack from longer range. And while I haven't posted numbers for an ECM shift, it's worth noting that any power the Tholian ships put into ECCM isn't available to reinforce the web. There is a definite benefit for them in using a weapon that is less effected by ECM, allowing them to put more power into the web and therefore increasing the number of turns they have to shoot at the Selts without being shot at.
Conclusion: Against the Selts, the phaser-5 is the better choice for wedding cake defense.
3) Open Space. This can be divided into two subcases, whether or not the Tholians have any web caster ships. I'm assuming that all X2 warships will at least have snares but (as stated previously) true web casters will still be rare. With no web casters, the phaser-5 is the better choice because of its range advantages. And with web casters, you have the added issue that you may, in the dynamic maneuvering environment of open space, find yourself sometimes having to shoot through non-adjacent web. So the damage reduction per phaser discussed above is even more of a factor.
Conclusion: Phaser-5 wins.
Overall, one of our three main cases is roughly a toss-up, but with a slight phaser-5 advantage in my opinion. In the other two cases phaser-5s are clearly better than 50% more phaser-1s. If I were the Tholians and had the choice, I would unhesitatingly arm my X2 ships with phaser-5s.
*I can't do any analysis on the "overloadable phaser case" without more details on exactly how it would work. For example, what is the max range of an overloaded phaser? In any event, I suspect that even for X2, overloaded phasers are DOA.
Why does one need torps to maintain one's boarders in free space.
Is it because Disruptors and Proxy torps can do pretty well at ranges like 30, 15 & 12???
If so, why not go the opposite direction with the concept of overloaded phasers and allow them to fire ( say with a turn to cool down and heightened cost ) at extra long ranges where they can give as good as they get from torps!?!
Alternately you could give the Tholians a Ph-7 with results that keep pace with Disruptors all the way out to R40 but results like the Ph-5 from R12 in.
I have no problem with the Tholians having a class of ship with all phasers. The PC is already that way. The Ph-5 certainly is begging to be put in place of the disruptors on the DD. That's fine, but move heavy ships will need to have heavy weapons such as the Disruptor and Photon. The Photon is particularly well suited to the Tholians since it's warhead doesn't diminish with range. It a defensive possition they can stay safe and have a very long reach.
Jeff W.: That statement was in reference to the Partical Cannon. A very specific thing happend that will preclude them from getting PC tech back short of starting from scratch.
Look to the WC for room to make interesting proposals for the Tholians I think.
MJC: They will need heavy weapons to compete in open space fleet battles. If the enemy can assemble ten ships and concentrate fire at long range and all the Tholians have is phasers then all any fleet need do is pick them off at range with impunity.
DISCLAIMER
BE IT KNOWN, my data file ends Y204 (and will have precious little data for the latest war years, I think). This is specifically to not tie anything up for the X2 period. SVC wants (wisely)that to remain as open as possable. So, while I highly doubt the PC will make a come back that future is not yet written and anything might happen.
MJC,
Well, if you re-read my post, I think that the Tholians can do fine with just a phaser boat and no torps. And for a while I was arguing that that is what Tholian X2 ships that were too small to be given web casters should be. The problem is the scaling issue, as alluded to earlier. (It is probably more accurately described as a combination of scaling and synergy.)
Assume the Tholians have an XDD that has extremely heavy phaser firepower and is basically the equal of other races' XDDs in a duel, even though it has no heavy weapons. (It does have snares since it is virtually inconceivable that the Tholians would deploy X2 warships without either casters or snares.) Pricing this thing for a duel would mean that its BPV should also be comparable to the BPV of other races' XDDs. But now put this ship in a fleet action, in which the Tholians are deploying multiple web casters. (They needn't be X2 ships. CCXs, NCXs, or DHWs would work just fine.) With the very heavy phaser armament and multiple web casters on the Tholian side, it will generally be substantially more than a match for another races' XDD. Or if it is priced appropriately for the fleet battle, it will be outmatched by an enemy ship of comparable BPV in a duel.
While very heavy phaser armament is a logical and natural development for new Tholian designs in the X2 era, you run into the problem that it risks further strain on the BPV system. That's why I favor giving Tholian ships slightly better phaser armament than their counterparts but keeping their heavy weapons at X1 levels. It preserves the logic of the Tholian weaponry but doesn't distort the BPV system as much in the fleet battle since a significant portion of their firepower (the torpedos) could only be used in situations where the enmey could also fire back at the Tholians.
A similar effect might be achieved by giving the X2 Tholians essentially the same phaser armament as their counterparts, and keeping their heavy weapons at X1 levels, but giving them extremely good shields. This also preserves the "Tholian feel" since many of their ships (at least the Archeo-Tholians) are slightly outgunned by their opponents but are better shielded.
Alan, for the time being I'd say the overload Ph-T (Tholian Ph-5) can fire out to range 8 like any other OL weapon. Of course, for me this is all conjecture.
Now if you really want to get mean with it, you could apply overload power, roll the die, divide by two and round up (interesting effect with EW there), apply that number to the phaser chart, THEN multiply by two for overload firepower.
Loren, this is a bit off topic but I'm still mulling the idea of a Web Torpedo (a'la plasma) for the Tholians. I'll have to dust off that proposal and spruce it up a bit. One of these days I'll post it in the X2 Tholians thread.
The more I think about it the more I like the idea of giving the Tholians (and only the Tholians) a 5pt battery that would be used to draw warp overload power. Just a thought.
Just a quick note.
It's the outer layer of web in a tholian wedding cake that's all important, because the Tholians can reinforce this and duck back behind the second layer before the enemy can get a ship into the outer layer to blow up the reinforcing ship.
Of course, the enemy can circle the cake at R8 or so (and it needs to be that close) which means they can get a ship into the web to do over the reinforcing ship in time, but then the tholians simply don't reinforce and shoor away with the base's phas-4s being in effective range.
Without the outer layer, the tholians don't have the turn modes or space to play this game, and the enemy can circle safely further away from the base while still being able to dive in and kill any web reinforcers in time.
Incidently, the PC's turn mode and nimble status make them inordinatly powerful behind the cake, because it allows them to reinforce the outer web and duck back increadibly quickly (~4-5 impulses IIRC).
When you look at the history of the Tholians, this discussion should be in their thread no? You will note the Tholians started out as an all phaser fleet, significantly more technologically advanced then their neighbors, yet they made great efforts to capture Disruptor technology. They went way beyond their comfort zone to purchase Photons from the Federation. In fact they loved heavy weapons so much they put 5 Disruptors on their CCH War Cruiser and even added a Disruptor to the PC to create the DPC. They have been moving away from all phaser designs as quickly as their technology can manage it.
Why? The Tholians don't like to engage in combat. Phasers are a very personal weapon. When you get within effective phaser range one of the ships ends up dead. The Tholians really don’t like to lose ships, certainly not anything larger then a PC.
The proposals I’ve read here so far involve the Tholians going to an all phaser fleet to make it easier for them to defend their bases. The Tholians don’t need any help defending a base. Assaulting a Tholian base is among the most unbalanced thing one can attempt in SFB. An all phaser fleet would convert a base assault from absurd to insane; this is not a desirable direction.
An all phaser Tholian fleet is a bad idea. Dig out one of the X2 designs and put it up against a Tholian NCX (240 BPV). As far as I’m concerned the Web Caster gives the Tholians all the X2 tech they need.
Tos,
I think your analysis is a little off.
First of all, the point of the phaser-5 is to extend the effective range of phaser fire. A Tholian with a phaser-5 suite can engage from longer range more effectively than one with a phaser-1 suite.
Second, the Tholians acquired disruptor technology at a time when they a) had no web casters because both NDDs had been destroyed, b) had no capability yet to build cruiser sized hulls, and c) needed to be able to fight their opponents in open space. C) still applies in the X2 years but a) and b) do not. Invoking EY Tholians to explain Tholian actions in the X2 era is questionable at best.
Third, while the Tholians do indeed have a number of torpedo-heavy ships, it's not at all clear that they would have made the same choices had they had web casters and phaser-5s as available technology. And the purpose of the disruptor-armed Patrol Corvette (and later photon-armed Patrol Corvette) was to test the weapons. The Tholians never converted these ships back to standard configuration, but they are inferior to the phaser-only PC as warships.
I concur that the Tholians are already enormously strong in base defense. Whenever I play the Tholians in base defense, I will always allow my (non-Selt/non-Andro) opponent a BPV bonus to buy additional forces, the exact amount depending on the force levels and scenario year. In fact, I'm starting to believe that even the Seltorians need a bonus, though not as large of one. But with phaser-5s, all-phaser Tholians (for their small non-web caster ships) are viable in open space. I would prefer not to see them (except for an X2 version of the Corvette) for the scaling/synergy problems I discussed in my posts last night. But they can hold their pwn in open space, particularly when larger web caster-equipped ships are also present.
Finally, I don't understand your objection to this discussion in this topic, since Brodie was talking about X2 phasers for Tholians. It is no more out of place than the earlier discussion of allowing X2 Romulans a phaser that can fire while cloaked.
David Slatter,
Regarding time spent adjacent to the outer web; post Y175 the Tholians need to put 15 points of power per turn into the outermost web to counter natural degradation. A lone (non-X) PC can't supply that much power. Any web/snare/caster-equipped ship, X-tech or not, can put four points of power per impulse into web. So two PCs acting together would need to remain next to the web for only two impulses. A single larger ship (or PCX) would need to remain adjacent to the outer web for four impulses.
Alan
That's correct. I was assuming that a base would have more than one PC defending it.
My point is that all phaser Tholians are bad. Very bad.
Late War most races are busy adding phasers. The Tholians are busy adding heavy weapons:
CAN Y180 6xDisr MC=1
CCH Y183 5xDisr MC=0.66
CAW Y184 4xDisr 1xWC MC=0.66
DPW Y184 4xDisr 2xPhot 2xWC MC=1
DHW Y184 8xDisr 2xWC MC=1.33
NCX Y189 4xDisr 2xWC MC=0.66
To me this shows a clear inclination toward adding heavy weapons. What changes with X2 that makes them reverse this trend? Why didn't every race make the same decision to dump heavy weapons in favor of an all phaser suite? What is the affect on game balance?
Its not about what makes sense for the Tholains, its about balance. Tholian fleets that combine web casters with pass-through enabled P5 fire cannot be balanced. Like the Andro they won't scale from duel to fleet. Unlike the Andro they get worse as the fleet size increases. Increasing the imbalance by adding more P5s will not make them balanced.
Tos,
But it has to be about both what makes sense for the Tholians and balance. I agree with you about the balance problems with web casters and phaser-5s, and have said exactly that several times over the last couple of days. But you write as if want to take this and extrapolate to "therefore - no X2 Tholians". I don't think that will fly.
So what do you think about my suggestion at the end of my 12:54 am post; that the Tholian ships have basically the same phaser suite as their X2 counterparts, and their heavy weapons remain at X1 levels, but they have superior shielding? Stronger shields don't have the same scaling problems and this would preserve the "feel" that most Archeo-Tholians* have always had; slightly undergunned but with shields superior to their opponents.
*The DPW and DHW are exceptions to this rule. The CAN is actually not a very good ship, despite its 6 disruptors. It has a very poor power curve, poor maneuverability, and is inferior to the CWH as a general purpose warship. And the 5 disruptor CCH is a bit undergunned compared to other CCHs when you consider the total weapon package, not just the number of heavy weapons. But all of these are unusual exceptions. The "main line" Archeo-Tholians, the PC, DD, CA, and CW are all a bit undergunned but with superior shields (and maneuverability).
(Edit)
P.S. The NCX (from your above list) didn't add any heavy weapons. It has exactly the same heavy weapons as the NCA, simply upgraded to X-tech.
Thanks Alan for pointing out your previous post. Apparently I'm a little behind in my readign and got stuck echoing things you have already said. We both lean the same way and see the same pitfalls.
I don't get to decide if the Tholians get X2 tech or not. If they get P5 or not. If the P5 can fire through a web or not. Personally I don't think its a good idea and believe there is sufficient technobabble to make a reasonable case.
Your idea about better shields might work, or it might create an eggshell feel. Dunno until we she how everything fits together. I certainly like it better then going with an all phaser fleet. For now all we know is that the Y205 Tholians must balance, both in duels and in fleets, with X2/X2/GW Klingons.