(M__.0) CLUSTER MINES
Cluster mines have a transporter capable of deploying six shaped charge bombs. While similar in many ways to explosive and captor mines, cluster mines are governed by the rules below and not by the (M4.4) rules for captor mines.
(M__.1) GENERAL
(M__.11) TYPE: A cluster mine is a large mine. There is no small version of a cluster mine.
(M__.12) DEPLOYMENT: Cluster mines are deployed normally. They are purchased under the same procedures and limits as captor mines. There are no dummy cluster mines or dummy bombs in a cluster mine.
(M__.121) Cluster mines can be triggered by target proximity or movement (i.e., automatic). They cannot be triggered by command control, sensor mines, or by deadman or chain detonators.
(M__.122) Cluster mines can be set to be triggered by targets at range 0 or 1. Note that a cluster mine is not as effective if set to be triggered by targets at range 1.
(M__.123) Cluster mines cannot be laid during a scenario except by minesweepers and minelayers.
(M__.13) LOADING: A Cluster mine holds six shaped charge bombs.
(M__.131) Cluster mines cannot be reloaded or unloaded.
(M__.132) The explosion of the shaped charges automatically destroys the cluster mine that transported them; this is an exception to (M8.53). The explosion of other mines will not damage cluster mines.
(M__.2) OPERATIONS
(M__.21) GENERAL: When triggered, the cluster mine uses its built-in transporter to place all of its bombs in the hexes surrounding the cluster mine (one per surrounding hex). This transporter is powered by the mine (no allocation is required). This is done during the Operate Transporters Step of the Sequence of Play. The transporter is limited to transporting the bombs to the hexes surrounding the cluster mine.
(M__.211) Each bomb immediately does five points of damage to any unit in the same hex as that bomb. This damage is applied to the shield facing the cluster mine.
(M__.212) Units in the same hex as a cluster mine receive nine points of damage to each shield due to the bombs’ shaped charges.
(M__.22) A cluster mine must transport all of its bombs at once.
(M__.23) Bombs placed by a cluster mine explode immediately.
(M__.24) Nothing can affect the placement of the bombs.
(M__.3) OTHER INFORMATION
(M__.31) COST: Cluster mines cost 10 points.
(M__.32) CARGO: The Cluster mine occupies 10 cargo space points, including the bombs. It is considered explosive ordnance (G25.3).
(M__.33) SWEEPING: Cluster mines are destroyed by 6 damage points. Partial damage does not destroy the bombs loaded on the cluster mines. Cluster mines remain fully functional until completely destroyed or triggered by partial damage (M8.422).
(M__.34) ESG INTERACTION: Cluster mines are treated as captor mines for purposes of ESG interaction (G23.612). The cluster mine is destroyed by the sixth point of damage scored on it. The bombs loaded on the Cluster mines do not explode.
(M__.35) DISASSEMBLY: The bombs on a cluster mine cannot be removed from the cluster mine (even between scenarios in a repair bay) or transported aboard a base or ship.

By Troy J. Latta (Saaur) on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 08:33 am: Edit

I think I would knock it down to 4 in the surrounding hexes and 8 per shield in the middle just to make it a little more in line with an NSM.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 10:40 am: Edit

Jim: Boy, you really didn't do yourself any favors posting so many proposals at once. Nobody (including and especially me) has time to review that many things in one single day, and by tomorrow they'll be old conversations. You should have uploaded one per week and given each a chance to find support. The signal to noise ratio is just too much. Tell you what. I'm going to kill most of your proposals and let you re-upload them over a period of time. That way, they'll get a fair hearing (some of them sound pretty cool) but now they're just the roar of the crowd.

By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 10:50 am: Edit

Can activation be controlled by Size Class or skip count or only range?

Any terrain effects?
- Does this work in Nebulas?
- What happens if it transports it's load into an asteroid hex?
- Other terrain?

What about the prohibition that a Transporter Bomb cannot be placed in a hex that currently has a unit?

By Michael Powers (Mtpowers) on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 11:11 am: Edit

Why not just buy a large mine?

Oh, wait, nine points of damage to *each* shield? Wow. Players who use Leaky Shields would *love* this thing. But I'm still wondering why it's needed, when we already have mines that do a decent enough job of blowing things up.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 01:19 pm: Edit

I will comment that I do not see how a "shaped charge" could do damage to more than one unit in a given hex. By definition, the primary force of the blast is focused in one direction. So if I trigger such a mine and there are two units in my hex (me and a fighter), a shaped charge could only damage one (at least to full effect).

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 01:26 pm: Edit

Let me add that this seems more like a "Captor Mine" in that it is using what amounts to a fire control system for its targeting (the transport of the "shaped charges" into position to fire on the target). And captor mines can NOT be laid during a scenario, not even by minelayers or minesweepers.

By Ken Humpherys (Pmthecat) on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 04:14 pm: Edit

If you compare this to a NSM, I could definitely see a 5 point in surrounding hexes and 10 points to each shield at range 0. I could even see 6/12 or 5/15.

Here is my reasoning:
NSM does 35 pts in 7 hexes, total damage is 245 pts.
Cluster mine does 5 in surrounding for 30 total pts. 10 pts per shield is 60 total in center hex. 15 is 90 pts total. At 15pts you are delivering half of the total damage of a NSM but devastating the center hex.
Or, as this is basically an enveloper mode to a NSM we could use the enveloper rules from plasma, double damage and divide by 6. I would round this to 12pts to keep it simple. divide the surrounding hexes by 6 and Voila, 6 points per hex.

By Jim Ryan (Jrr) on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 04:45 pm: Edit

Gary Bear:
Operates in all manners as a captor mine.
Will operate anywhere such mines can.
These are not Transporter Bombs. The mine deploys "bomb" (shaped charges).

Steve Petrick:
(M__.12) DEPLOYMENT: Cluster mines are deployed normally. They are purchased under the same procedures and limits as CAPTOR mines. There are no dummy cluster mines or dummy bombs in a cluster mine.

By Jim Ryan (Jrr) on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 05:11 pm: Edit

Steve Petrick: The charges are shaped to damage an area in a single direction (the mine hex). The damage in other hexes is caused by "back blast" (I guess that's as good a term as any). Perhaps the damage in the adjacent hexes should be to the shield facing away from the original mine hex?

NOTE: I adjusted the explosion strength on a best guess basis with minimal playtesting. I did not want it to automatically destroy (or even cripple) fighters not in the mine hex. I'm not sure what the proper ratios should be.

By Michael Powers (Mtpowers) on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 06:10 pm: Edit

Jim: Considering that you cannot put captor mines into a mine rack, deployment of these mines is going to be somewhat limited.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 06:27 pm: Edit

Jim Ryan:

Ahem.

Restating your rule does NOT suddenly make it an exception to existing rules, i.e., captor mines cannot be deployed by ships DURING A SCENARIO. Just because you have written a rule does not override the existing rules. And if all you are going to do is say "see my rule and pay no attention to what SFB rules have said before this point", we are done here.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 07:47 pm: Edit

Jim,

This is an important and vital part of suggesting rules.

Some ideas sound OK but can have conflicts, interactions or implications when mixed in with the existing rules.

Being able to recognize such interactions and account for them is an important part of rules-construction.

Being able to recognize unacceptable side-effects and modify/drop a concept is a skill you develop over time and developing it will save you and everybody else much tooth-grinding.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 09:43 pm: Edit

Generally one posts a rule proposal to get help finding all the odds and ends and to see if the public in general both gets what you're thinking and likes it. SVC listens to his player base and it they hate something usually it won't fly.

Getting it past the board is a very good start to getting into print if it can get by ADB as well.

By Jim Ryan (Jrr) on Friday, January 20, 2006 - 05:56 am: Edit

Try this:
(M__.0) CLUSTER MINES
Cluster mines have a transporter capable of deploying six shaped charge bomblets. While similar in many ways to explosive and captor mines, cluster mines are governed by the (M4.4) rules for captor mines with the exceptions listed below.
(M__.1) GENERAL
(M__.11) TYPE: A cluster mine is a large mine. There is no small version of a cluster mine.
(M__.12) DEPLOYMENT: Cluster mines are purchased and deployed under the same procedures and limits as captor mines. There are no dummy cluster mines or dummy bomblets in a cluster mine.
(M__.121) Cluster mines can be triggered by target proximity or movement (i.e., automatic). They cannot be triggered by command control, sensor mines, or by deadman or chain detonators.
(M__.122) Cluster mines can be set to be triggered by targets at range 0 or 1. Note that a cluster mine is not as effective if set to be triggered by targets at range 1.
(M__.123) Cluster mines cannot be laid during a scenario.
(M__.13) LOADING: A Cluster mine holds six shaped charge bomblets.
(M__.131) Cluster mines cannot be reloaded or unloaded.
(M__.132) The explosion of the shaped charge bomblets automatically destroys the cluster mine that transported them; this is an exception to (M8.53). The explosion of other mines will not damage cluster mines.
(M__.2) OPERATIONS
(M__.21) GENERAL: Cluster mines can be triggered by any method a captor mine can be triggered.
(M__.211) When triggered the cluster mine uses a built-in transporter to place all of its bomblets in the hexes surrounding the cluster mine (one per surrounding hex). This transporter is powered by the mine (no allocation required). This happens during the Operate Transporters Step of the Sequence of Play. The transporter is limited to transporting the bomblets to the hexes surrounding the mine.
(M__.212) Each bomblet immediately does five points of damage to any unit in the same hex as that bomb. This damage is applied to the shield facing the cluster mine.
(M__.213) Units in the same hex as a cluster mine receive nine points of damage to each shield due to the bombs’ shaped charges.
(M__.22) A cluster mine must transport all of its bomblets at once.
(M__.23) Bomblets placed by a cluster mine explode immediately.
(M__.24) Nothing can affect the placement of the bomblets.
(M__.3) OTHER INFORMATION
(M__.31) COST: Cluster mines cost 8 points.
(M__.32) CARGO: The Cluster mine occupies 4 cargo space points, including bomblets. It is considered explosive ordinance (G25.3).
(M__.33) SWEEPING: Cluster mines are destroyed by 6 damage points. Partial damage does not destroy the bomblets loaded on the cluster mines. Cluster mines remain fully functional until completely destroyed or triggered by partial damage (M8.422).
(M__.34) ESG INTERACTION: Cluster mines are treated as captor mines for purposes of ESG interaction (G23.612). The cluster mine is destroyed by the sixth point of damage scored on it. The bomblets loaded on the Cluster mines do not explode.
(M__.35) DISASSEMBLY: The bomblets on a cluster mine cannot be removed from the cluster mine (even between scenarios in a repair bay) or transported aboard a base or ship.
(M__.36) TERRAIN: Cluster mines and the bomblets handle terrain as a Captor mine. Terrain that prohibits transporters will affect the deployment of the bomblets.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, January 20, 2006 - 01:09 pm: Edit

...So the concept is a "enveloping mine" which does reduced damage to the surrounding hexes and does massively more damage to a ship unlucky enough to be in the same hex as the mine when it goes off.

Essentially 5 points to the surrounding hexes and 9 points of all shields in the detonation hex.

What purpose or point is there in treating the thing as a captor mine?

By Jim Ryan (Jrr) on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 05:07 pm: Edit

John:
Good question. Perhaps it should be treated as a standard mine. Should it need a targeting system to transport a bomblet x-distance in x-direction?

Ken H:
I kept the cost high and the overall damage low. I figured if I went higher it would be too powerful. Was I wrong? Should it be closer to 6/15?

Another question: Should I have the damage in the outer hexes strike the shield away from or the shield facing the mine? Seems the nonfacing shield would be more accurate when using a shaped charge - the facing if the back blast is the explanation for damage in the outer hexes.
Any ideas?

By Ken Humpherys (Pmthecat) on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 08:39 pm: Edit

I have been thinking about this proposal.
After some thought I have a few ideas / comments / addendems.
I think a 6/12 damage would be closer to standard enveloper damage. 9 pts to 6 shields is only about 1.5 times a standard NSM.
Facing shield should be struck for 2 reasons:
1. Simpler.
2. Backblast makes more sense than a blast that travels through the hex.

By Jim Ryan (Jrr) on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 02:29 am: Edit

Rewritten:
(M__.0) CLUSTER MINES
Cluster mines have a transporter capable of deploying six shaped charge bomblets. While similar in many ways to both explosive and captor mines, cluster mines are neither and operate under the rules below.
(M__.1) GENERAL
(M__.11) TYPE: A cluster mine is a large mine. There is no small version of a cluster mine.
(M__.12) DEPLOYMENT: Cluster mines are purchased and deployed under the same procedures and limits as NSMs. There are no dummy cluster mines or dummy bomblets in a cluster mine.
(M__.121) Cluster mines are triggered in the same manner as NSM
(M__.122) Cluster mines can be set to be triggered by targets at range 0 or 1. Note that a cluster mine is not as effective if set to be triggered by targets at range 1.
(M__.123) Cluster mines can be laid during a scenario.
(M__.13) LOADING: A Cluster mine holds six shaped charge bomblets.
(M__.131) Cluster mines cannot be reloaded or unloaded.
(M__.132) The explosion of the shaped charge bomblets automatically destroys the cluster mine that transported them; this is an exception to (M8.53). The explosion of other mines will not damage cluster mines.
(M__.2) OPERATIONS
(M__.21) GENERAL: When triggered the cluster mine uses a built-in transporter to place all of its bomblets in the hexes surrounding the cluster mine (one per surrounding hex). This transporter is powered by the mine (no allocation required). (M__.211) The bomblets are transported in the Operate Transporters Step of the Sequence of Play. The transporter is limited to transporting the bomblets to the hexes surrounding the mine. This does not require the mine to have a lock-on to the target location; it simply transports them 1 hex in a specific direction.
(M__.211) Each bomblet immediately does six points of damage to any unit in the same hex as that bomb. This damage is blast-back from the bomblets and is applied to the shield facing the cluster mine.
(M__.212) Units in the same hex as a cluster mine receive twelve points of damage to each shield (due to the shaped bomblet charges.
(M__.22) A cluster mine must transport all of its bomblets at once.
(M__.23) Bomblets placed by a cluster mine explode immediately.
(M__.24) Nothing can affect or change the placement of the bomblets.
(M__.3) OTHER INFORMATION
(M__.31) COST: Cluster mines cost 8 points.
(M__.32) CARGO: The Cluster mine occupies 4 cargo space points, including bomblets. It is considered explosive ordinance (G25.3).
(M__.33) SWEEPING: Cluster mines are destroyed by 6 damage points. Partial damage does not destroy the bomblets loaded on the cluster mines. Cluster mines remain fully functional until completely destroyed or triggered by partial damage (M8.422).
(M__.34) ESG INTERACTION: Cluster mines are treated as NSMs for purposes of ESG interaction (G23.612). The cluster mine is destroyed by the sixth point of damage scored on it. The bomblets loaded on the Cluster mines do not explode.
(M__.35) DISASSEMBLY: The bomblets on a cluster mine cannot be removed from the cluster mine (even between scenarios in a repair bay) or transported aboard a base or ship.
(M__.36) TERRAIN: Cluster mines and the bomblets handle terrain as a Captor mine. Terrain that prohibits transporters will affect the deployment of the bomblets.

Any better?

By Ken Humpherys (Pmthecat) on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 11:11 am: Edit

Better, but I think you should change (M_.34) back to treating this mine as a captor mine vs ESGs if you want it to be swept by ESGs. NSMs explode when hit by ESGs and the explosion is removed from the ESGs. Any remaning explosive force is applied to the #1 shield. No one else gets hit. But, captor mines hit by ESGs go off durring the normal sequence of play (in this case, the transporter step) if they survive the ESGs.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 11:47 am: Edit

Ken Humphreys:

An argument can be made that the explosive devices in the mine are not, themselves, mines but are more akin to drone warheads. They are thus no more likely to detonate when impacted by an ESG than the warhead of a drone (including drones held on a drone captor) hit by an ESG.

However, I do think that (M__.34) should at least note that if insufficient ESG damage is done to the mine (i.e., the ESG does from 1-5 points of damage and then drops, having been weakened by earlier impacts obviously), then the mine triggers under the provisions of (M8.422), and of course doing so would be a shame if the ESG that caused the damage was at radius two or three, as the mine would have no effect on the ESG ship in that case.

However, saying this mine is not a captor mine under (M0.0) does not excuse it from being a captor mine. IT IS A CAPTOR MINE, and just saying "(M__.123) Cluster mines can be laid during a scenario." does not change that.

Transporters require ACTIVE FIRE CONTROL (at the very least, Low Powered Fire Control), they cannot operate on Passive Fire Control at all. You might try to make a claim that the mine does not need as accurate a fire control as a full blown captor with a range of 15 hexes (when controlled by a base), but if you make that claim, then the Hydrans (for example) could lay small hellbore captors with a range of one hex during a turn to help discourage pursuit.

Fire Control means captor mine, and transporters mean fire control, and captor mine means cannot be laid during a scenario.

Further, the mine cannot have "a transporter" as one transporter cannot in a single turn (much less a single impulse) beam six different objects to six different locations. Particularly not "explosive ordnance" which the bomblets are. It would have to have six transporters to operate at all in the designed role.

At that juncture, at best it is a mine developed by either the Andromedans (who might be granted an exception for this mine), or the RYN in the Omega Sector (who again might be granted an exception), but it is not going to be a generic mine as designed as it has too many fatal flaws that would need a specific exemption to the rules from SVC.

By Jim Ryan (Jrr) on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 04:23 pm: Edit

I agree with Steve; It is a captor mine. Thought I'd try it as standard - too many problems.

Try this. Go back to my second rewrite but change the following:

(M__.12) DEPLOYMENT: Cluster mines are purchased and deployed under the same procedures and limits as captor mines. There are no dummy cluster mines or dummy bomblets in a cluster mine.
(M__.121) Cluster mines can be triggered by any method a captor mine can be triggered.
(M__.122) Cluster mines can be set to be triggered by targets at range 0 or 1 only. Note that cluster mines are not as effective if triggered by targets at range 1.

AND

(M__.2) OPERATIONS
(M__.21) GENERAL: Cluster mines can be triggered by any method a captor mine can be triggered.
(M__.211) When triggered the cluster mine uses a built-in transporter to place all of its bomblets in the hexes surrounding the cluster mine (one per surrounding hex). This transporter is powered by the mine (no allocation required). This happens during the Operate Transporters Step of the Sequence of Play. The transporter is limited to transporting the bomblets to the hexes surrounding the mine.
(M__.212) Each bomblet immediately does six points of damage to any unit in the same hex as that bomb. This damage is applied to the shield facing the cluster mine.
(M__.213) Units in the same hex as a cluster mine receive twelve points of damage to each shield due to the bombs’ shaped charges.

Keeping them captors limits their deployment. I did not intend them to be standard mines, but to supplement minefields - especially around bases.

Any better?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 05:19 pm: Edit

Jim Ryan:

As I said, you are going to need an exception from SVC for your design simply because it is, as noted, doing something that transpoters cannot do, i.e., transporting six things to six different hexes at the same time. Transporters only work on "site to site", i.e., they can pick up an object at site B and move it to site A (the object might begin or end in the transporter's location, but does not necessarily have to do so). They cannot, for example, transport four boarding parties to four different locations as part of the same transporter operation (this is at the non-combat rate, of course). Further, you are moving explosive ordnance, and for that you need to see (G25.211). Again, you would need to get a exemption from SVC.

Now, obviously you are building, at one and the same time, a very cheap (it is only going to be used once) and very expensive (it is going to be trying to move explosive ordnance) transporter, and just as obviously (due to the limit on site to site) you are building six of these transporters into your mine, plus the fire control to operate (accurately place the bomblets in the surrounding hexes). The mine MUST have a lock-on to those target hexes (required for transporter operations), but just as obviously (unlike the fire control most captor mines) this is going to be a very cheap fire control system (only needs to lock on to the adjacent hexes, does not need that fancy ECCM that other captor mines has, and only needs to do it one time . . . although once laid into a minefield that fire control is always active unless you have a base controlling it (just as with any other captor mine). And I do not think there is any trouble with building the power needed into the mine (some small captors have at least three points of power generation, and some large captors have even more, with large hellbore captor requiring six points plus fire control every turn) and you only need 1.2 points of energy to operate six transporters.

One problem you are starting to run into is that the more I think of your mine, the more queasy it makes me. Simply because, if you can transport your bomblets, and have them fire on the same impulse, then you have just created the loophole to allow ships to beam explosive devices directly into each other.

Another problem is the submunitions are detonating on the same impulse they transport, so why can't a T-bomb?

I hate to say it, as I think you have put some effort into this, but unless SVC wants to keep this going I think it will have to be rejected for General use. Not even the RYN can get around the delay in a T-bomb activating after transport, and if the bomblets of your mine could . . .

I will see if I can find a moment to ask SVC to look at this last missive of mine and see what he thinks.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 05:56 pm: Edit

I can see some kind of structure (a pretty darn big mine chassis) that could have six transporters. From there, I see nothing but troble.

Mines use passive targeting since they don't want to give away their position. You can get away with this since you're firing off a subspace pulse which covers a wide area.

Your bomblets are either going to have to be:
@passive targeting, which makes them as big as a T-bomb (in which case they work like a T-bomb) to cover a wide area (which assumes a monstrously huge mine chassis) or
@ they're much smaller bombs that use precision targeting (active fire control, not hidden like a mine) and directly attack single ships (which isn't going to surprise anybody; you can lay the thing before the scenario but nobody is going to go anywhere near it).

If such transporter direct attack bomblets work, ships could use them with their own transporters. Do we want that in the game? (Unlikely)

Then you have the explosive ordnance rule, which means flatly and without any wiggle room that they cannot explode until they "arm" somewhere down the road in the Sequence of Play.

There is, however, a way to make this work. Basically, you have a really big mine chassis with some t-bombs in it, each in a transporter. When commanded to activate (and using the base's fire control) they tranport the T-bombs just like a ship would. the bombs then arm like T-bombs. Doesn't mean you get instant damage on targets, but does mean you get "instant minefield, just add water". Whether there is a tactical point to having the ability to swiftly lay a bunch of mines is questionable to stop ships (which would just maneuver away) as a defense against seeking weapons it could be pretty cool.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 07:06 pm: Edit

That already exists (a mine laying other mines, although not that many at one time), that is the Andromedan trans-captor (M11.0). It is, however, limited to laying one mine (by transporter) a turn, can carry no more than four, and I doubt that the Galactics (with, again, the noted exception of the RYN) would be able to do it better than the Andromedans. And of course for the Andromedans, it is intended to supplement the seeking weapons defense of Andromedan bases (using Power Absorber Mines versus plasma torpedoes and T-bombs against drones).