Synopsis of idea for Web Caster Mine. (WCM)


The Caster Mine comes in both sizes, small and large and casts web out to either side when triggered. The small mine casts web into two oposite hexes adjacent to the mine and in the same hex forming a three hex linier web. The large casts web out two hexes to either side forming a five hex linier web. The strength of the Web is 10 for either size.

The web forms and disappates at the same rate as web cast from a Web Caster.

Each can be command controled using those rules.

Caster Mines laid during a scenario by a ship can be overloaded by applying energy to them on the turn it is laid. If not laid that turn the energy is lost (actually removed for safty concerns). Once laid an overloaded Caster Mine will retain the extra energy for three turns.

An overloaded caster mine casts a web of strength 20.

Energy required =...? (I'll have to check rules on web caster arming proceedures but the energy would be similar.)

Web cast by a Caster Mine is the same as any cast web and is governed by the same rules. (I.e., it can be anchored and extended etc.)

Command controlled Caster mines can have an energy pack attached (noted as WCMx-L or Sm. This is an extra cost and will overload the Caster mine when triggered.


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This would certainly be a very late year design; Y200+. The Tholians need time to fully out fit their fleet with the limited Web Caster production they have and time to relearn its unique proporties and function. In time I could see these being used around most all bases and most outposts.

I see ships having one or two small WCM as commanders options. It would seem more likely to be standard equipement on smaller ships who would use them to delay incursions. Ships equipped with web casters would not routinely carry them.

Could they be fitted with a time delay auto trigger?

Could any mine be fitted with a time delay auto trigger?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 12:28 am: Edit

Loren,

Unfortunately, I think this violates several rules.

For one thing, this seems to me to be a type of captor mine, which would mean it can't be deployed from ships during the course of a scenario. Note that E12.15 requires a unit that is casting web have active fire control.

Secondly, If the mine is creating a web in its own hex, it seems to violate E12.41, which forbids firing at a range of zero. The only exception, E12.21 and specifically E12.212, doesn't apply here.

Finally, your "overloaded" large mine creates a five hex web at strength 20. This would be 100 aggregate web strength points and under E12.42 this would mean the web caster was charged with 10 points of power. But a web caster maxes out at 5 points and an X-tech web caster maxes out at 6 points.

This is all just my opinion, of course. But it seems to me that there are several points to your proposal that make it illegal under current rules.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 12:53 am: Edit

Well, it would be a unique thing that would have allowences not aplicable to ships. I don't think it needs fire control in this special case since it casts web in a predetermined pattern. Regarding Web in it's own hex I suppose that there is some technobablle reason it can and ships can't.
As to being a captor mine... well, it's unique Tholian tachnology and I don't see why it HAS to be a captor mine, even if it shares some proporties.

I didn't do the math before posting the idea because I wanted to get it logged before I forgot about it. I need to review Web Caster rules to find the proper strength levels. Obviously a 20 point web is too much! I'll post new more reasonable levels soon. Honestly a fairly weak web will perform the required task.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 01:12 am: Edit

OK, here is the new strengths. Boy was I WAY figgin' off! Taking into account Allen's comments (thanks):

Large Caster Mine (captor): 5 hexes, str 4, OL=6
Small Caster Mine (captor): 3 hexes, str 3, OL=6
Caster Bomb (small trans-mine): 3 hexes, str 3 (only)


Note that the time it take for the web to solidify and the trigger range of mines means that the Caster Bomb isn't much useful against fast moving ships. However, the primary Tholian enemy does use seeking weapons and such a device could be used to disrupt the tactic of following the drones in very well. The drones trigger the Caster Bomb and get by it but then the web solidifies between the drones and the launching ship allowing the Tholians more time to deal with the drones.

The Caster Bomb could also be triggered by the Tholians own devices such as fighters or shuttles as well as other ships. You might transport the Caster Bomb in front of you and trigger it yourself. Just after you pass over it a protective web wall pops up. This might save you from taking weapons fire from recently recycled weapons or cause the enemy to take a wide detour to go around it as you try to get away, giving you more range. Or maintaining range and freeing up power by allowing you to go a bit slower.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 01:16 am: Edit

A Large Caster Mine with energy pack would take up three Mine Rack spaces.

A small Caster mine with and enery pack take s up two mine rack spaces.

By William Curtis Soder (Ghyuka) on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 10:00 am: Edit

Loren:

I really like this idea and it would give Tholian ships something really cool.

I do believe you should avoid special exceptions for your mine as much as possible. I can live with one exception but the more you pile up, the less likely they're gonna buy it.

I think you should drop the overload and any idea of laying during a scenario (except the small trans-mine).

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 10:35 am: Edit

Well, I've defined them as captor mines so they would be governed by those rules. The extra energy package just give the mine an extra point of power.

I based the new strengths on a small mine using 1 point of power and the large mine having 2 points of power in the WC. The extra power pack adds one point to either unit.

Also, I'm not saying this is a true mine but is more of a spring trap that uses mine sensors and such. The WC inside isn't the same as the weapon either and couldn't be converted for use on a ship. It is a one time use thing that burns out when formed. The Trans-mine version burns up after time (the energy containment fails in time once the unit is armed. No way to stop the cascade failier. This avoids capture.)

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 12:06 pm: Edit

What happens if the mine attempts to cast web into a hex that is either adjacent to web hex or has web in it?

I would expect the entire cast to fail.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 12:25 pm: Edit

John, I'd consider that...

or that hex of web fails (the one that violates the rule). The strength would remain the same but would be short by one hex. If two or more cast web hexes would be in violation the entire cast fails.

Alternatively if any hex on one side of the mine violates casting rules then that entire side fails. There might be a sensor so that if the mine is actually IN (but not next to) a web hex it won't trigger.

I'm not sure if casting direction should be written down at the time it is laid or not. My feeling is that it should be. You would simply write down two direction letters such as A-D or C-F. No slips allowed. Straight lines only.

So if a caster mine were triggered next to a web running A-D and the mine was set to A-D the mine would trigger and the cast would fail. If it were set to C-F then both sides would still fail because the center element would also be in vioation. If the mine were in a web hex it would not trigger (see a tactic here?). If the mine were two hexes away and set to C-F then one side would fail while the center and the opposite side would cast.

Make sense?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 12:28 pm: Edit

An additional idea might be that web from caster mines be treated as forign web. This would be one type of web that even Tholians cannot pass or fire through.

Of course neither can the enemy.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 02:59 pm: Edit

You mean a caster mine isn't the place where you get the raw materials to make the oil?

<shakes head>

<Music for bad humor chimes in...wah wah wah>

sorry...saw the heading and couldnt resist the poor humor.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 03:48 pm: Edit

Loren,

The mine should be able to target the direction it got its trigger from. Or in the opposite direction. Or have a casting direction hard-set.

Now remember: cast web takes 4 impulses to solidify. A fast-moving ship can trigger the mine and be well-past the web when it solidifies.

I think "foreign web" is a tournament thing. Is there such a thing in the SFU-proper?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 04:28 pm: Edit

John, see my 1/26/06 1:12am post where I address your second post.

As to the first I suppose those are good commands to be available for the captor but I think the transport mine should be more limited (the third option in your first paragraph when it is set at the time itis laid).

Foreign Web is real and is used in the old galaxy where some Tholians rebel ((SH204) in SB2 as an example).

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 06:14 pm: Edit

Loren Knight:

It is a captor mine simply because its effect is DIRECTIONAL, rather than omni-directional like normal explosive mines. Your mine has to be laid, orient itself, and then either cast its web in directions A-D, or in directions B-E, or C-F. Otherwise you can get into the situation where you wanted the web to be laid A-D to block my drones, but instead it lays it C-F allowing the drones to slip past. Or you would fail to block the movement of my ship.

Since Photon Captors can fire at range zero, even though the photon normally cannot fire at that range if not overloaded, there is already a technical loophole allowing the web caster mine to fire at range zero.

There is also the problem that these would be the ultimate Tholian base defense mine. You set them up, and then on command they fire at the pre-established anchors, alowing a few PFs to complete the outer ring of web very quickly. That in itself is reason enough to ban them.

But they are captor mines requiring fire control and directional stabilization, and so cannot be used by moving units during a scenario. They would have to be pre-laid. With the Snare Refit already extant, a need to equip small Tholian ships with a caster mine that created just one hex of web simply does not exist.

And using this mine to piggy back othere larger mines into the game is a no-no. If it was possible to add power packs to this mine and lay it from normal racks, it would be more than possible to build larger and more devastating Nuclear Space Mines.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 10:00 pm: Edit

SPP:
1) I'm presenting two types. One IS a captor mine and the othr isn't but has limitations. The Trans-Caster-Mine (lets call it that for now) would have it's direction set at the moment it is laid. Mine take two impulses to arm so I figure it is getting its bearings during that time. It cannot/will not cast in any other direction, cannot be recovered and will eventualyself distruct. In any case it isn't so very easy to deploy and shouldn't be. It should take care and craft to deploy it most effectively.

2) R0, cool.

3) Ultimate Base Defense. I've already addressed this with the Foreign Web rule so this tactic would fail. They would be unable to reinforce it and while between anchors it would disapate more slowly it would still dissapate. And the foreign web rule makes them more interesting by having them be something that must be used with care. The small nature of the device means its a different sort of web that isn't as controlable as normal web. It has all the core functions but cannot be fire through, cannot be passed through, and cannot be reiforced.

4) I'm not sure I see a need for active fire control to run a preset program of fire. But then I'm not the authority on this. The mine needs only orient itself to match the directions given of the laying ship. However, I could go one step further and suggest that they might only be laid out the hatch and not transported. But don't all mine orient themselves of a couple impulses? Could all the orentation be done passively? I would say that the laying ship must have active fire control by which the mine can read from to orient itself.

5) I didn't realize that I would be creating a larger mine but that is what would happen. Could you see the energy pack NOT increasing is Mine Rack space usage (thereby not creating a larger mine)?

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SPP: If I've adiquately addressed your points perhaps there is enough now to write a formal rule?

By Troy J. Latta (Saaur) on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 08:09 am: Edit

5) I think what he's saying is you need to drop the pack idea entirely, because it could too easily be carried over to other types of mines and that's broken.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 11:01 am: Edit

Troy, I understood that. Which is why I proposed the alternaive idea. Adding a power pack could be dropped however.

I sort of liked the idea of a ship putting power into a mine before droppng it. But captor mines would have to remain out there for long periods of time so a special power pack would be required.

It could be a Tholian unique technology (though that's probably pushing it. One can just use the "Unique tech" line just anywhere, I know.)

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 12:31 pm: Edit

How about a Tholian Captor mine web fist? A 1 point web fist.
edit: nevermind. What's the point? disruptors would be better.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 01:21 pm: Edit

Loren Knight:

If the Trans-Caster can get its bearings in two impulses, then so can a phaser-captor, or hellbore-captor, or etc. And obviously such captor mines would require "care and craft to deply most effectively."

Sorry, but I am not willing to allow you to have a captor mine (and it is as it requires fire control and is "firing") during a scenario. If the Tholians can do it (build a ship useable captor mine), so can everyone else.

As to foreign web. Not buying it. There is nothing in the Tholian background that indicates an inability to control the webs on "their" side. Thus no Tholian CCW arriving to help defend Base #X has problems integrating its webs with those of the base. No problem crossing the web of the base to reach the base. No problem with the phaser captors of the base firing through the webs of the base, or of the arriving CCW. If your Web Casters produced "foreign web", it would mean that they could not be updated with new "frequencies", and if they could not, then obviously phaser captors could not, and there would then have to always be a chance that phaser captors laid around a Tholian base would be on the wrong frequency (i.e., treat the web as foreign). Not to mention shuttles, fighters, etc.

NOT GOING THERE. Will note that I MIGHT have been willing to go there but for the Phaser-Captor precedent.

Further saying the small nature of the device makes it a different sort of web fails due to the existence of Snares, Tholian PFs able to lay and reinforce web, fighters and MRS shuttles able to lay (but not reinforce) web, and the existence of web anchors.

Regarding your mine only needing to orient itself and then fire, a normal captor mine needs only to orient itself in order to fire, and this takes time which is why they cannot be laid during a scenario. This is an explanation of why Captor Mines cannot be used in a scenario that SVC has given in the past and is the reason for (M9.23).

If you staring adding packs to mines, where does it stop? You are creating the "modular mine". I will add a explosive module to my drone (or plama-D) captor mines so that when it has finished launching seeking weapons, it can operate as a normal explosive mine for example. Why not? If you can add a power module to your mines and not increase their size, why can't I add more explosives, or explosive modules at all, to other mines?

By Seth Iniguez (Sutehk) on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 01:59 pm: Edit

Wow, modular mines, what a cool idea

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 02:24 pm: Edit

SPP: Why does it need active fire control? The TCM fires blind or with passive controls. The orentation isn't like a phaser captor where it must have a scan of its entire surroundings to fire at any target in any direction. That is not the case with the TCM. The TCM need only orient itself to the ship that lays it at the moment it is set. That is, it orients its possition and care not of what is around it. So when laid the units turns a number of degrees based on the bearing to the laying ship. No active scan of its surounding is needed at all. Then it only needs to turn one the trigger like any other mine. When triggered it fires blindly to the side. If something is in the way like other web it fails to form but the web is still cast. If the web were fired at some distance from the mine like a regular web caster I would totally buy the need for fire control but the web is cast from R0 to R1 to each side of the mine itself. Its a pre-programmed functions that cares not for where it is nor what is around it. It does not fire at a target in any way. This makes it more similar to a regular mine than a Captor IMO. The mine does not aim its weapon in any way but only runs a program, casting out a net to each side. The orentation is set on transport or as it is dropped out the hatch.

The difference between the Captor-Caster (or any captor mine)and the Trans-Caster is that the CC can fire in any direction on command or be given instructions to fire based of bearing the the triggering unit. Regular Captors have to actually sense the trigger then actively ping the target to get a firing solution on it, then target the weapon on the unit and fire. None of this applies to the Trans-Caster. It targets nothing just like a regular mine.

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The Web on the Caster Mine would be a rudementry and new form of web. A less refined web and would be a new technology. I don't see where web president matters here since the Foreign Web rule is what makes this most workable (and interesting). This web system would have to be much much smaller than the devices on ships or PF's. I mean, if you can fit it on a transporter pad wouldn't it be? So the Tholians get back to basics in devising a system that can be put on something as small as a mine cassis. It lacks the advanced features that allow web to be passed through and fired through. These features require too much computation and frequency control. Lacking these refinements in the launcher produces web but not one as advanced as regular systems. This is consider not a problem considering the intended tactical use.

The snare is a large device, as big as a Web device but with the added Snare feature. Way too big to put on a mine. Web Spinner fighters probably are the starting source for the small systems but also have more computing power than a mine available. Still, web spinners have their own limitations.

I'm willing to drop the energy pack idea altogether. The difference in strength is not of consequence. I might only change that the Large Caster Mine can choose to lay five or three hexes of web using it's two energy points.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 02:51 pm: Edit

Loren Knight:

Because of (E12.15). If your mine can cast web without a lock-on to the target hexes, than so can a warship, or if you want to claim that warships need lock-ons because they are moving, see stationary bases. There is no exemption for firing a web caster at a target hexes that are just two hexes distant on passive fire control.

If the matter was orienting only to the ship, then the same could be said for a phaser captor, or a one shot plasma captor that is shoved overboard to launch a plasma-F at a pursuing enemy. After all, it need "only orient itself to the ship".

At this juncture I will refer you to trying to convince SVC. I am not doing this to be mean, but am noting that I have been convinced that the mine as proposed is unworkable as a laid mine, and too powerful as a minefield mine.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 03:25 pm: Edit

SPP: Just a few final comments/questions.

I get your point about a base being able to lay web similarly. My only response is that the two fire control systems are different and the resulting web is different (goes back to the Foreign Web thing). Perhaps in the late years I'm suggesting a base would be allowed to do exactly that on passive, although I'm not sure why it would want to (since it could only cast in linier directions out from the base). There is no precedence because it's a new rule. Please keep in mind that this is a post Andro War device. Until then the Tholians would hope to have enough experience with Web Casters to even begin such a design.

A Phaser Captor and a Plasma-F captor have to target a unit. Getting its bearing is much more complex to fire a weapon at a target than it is to spring a net to either side blindly. The TCM needs only to know one point and that is its own relative to the laying ship. This is a straight line at the instant sitting and the ship has active fire control so the mine can gain this info passively. It them orients itself so that the casters are facing the right direction (so as to not be in a random direction). Still, the rule must avoid (E12.15) which isn't impossible I would think. Casting web a number of hexes away and having it land in those hexes would certainly require lock-on. But if all TCM's cast web in the same direction (changed only by physical orientation of the cassis) under all circumstances when triggered (a standard mine trigger) then lock-on should be able to be virtual. If physical circumstances prevent web being cast into a hex then that cast fails in that direction (which is then not a fire control issue).

I never consider you or what you do mean SPP.

Regarding too powerful as a Captor mine in a mine field: Is this still based on it not casting Foreign Web? If so I would agree. That is why I came up with the foreign Web rule and later discovered it added interesting tactical limitations.

Also, I was aware that the TCM would not be able to trap the unit that triggered it in most cases. That was part of the point of the tactics for its use (and what makes it not too powerful).

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 05:18 pm: Edit

Loren Knight:

If there was an ability to fire web casters passively, even if the resulting web was "foreign" (and note previous comments on why I do not believe in that) it would be INTRINSICLY BUILT INTO THE WEB CASTER SYSTEM (Emphasis, not shouting). All web casters would be able to do it as being able to cast web on passive fire control would be an upgrade. At which point you rewrite the existing web caster rule (E12.15), which I am not interested in doing. Consider a Tholian Command Module fleeing a debacle, it has switched to passive fire control to save energy to run, but is being chased by 5 Klingon drones, so it fires its web caster on passive, creating a mini-web barrier and thus escapes. There is thus a tactical advantage, however limited. (And that one is just off the top of my head. The web would also of course act as a shield against that last desperate long range direct-fire shot the Klingons might have taken. Or the web could be used to get past that Klingon T-bomb, fire it again of you then move into it, triggering the T-bomb by your movement, but the blast effect is reduced by the web).

Just not going to buy this.

As to the Captor mine thing, as I said, I am not buying the Foreign web thing as it is inconsistent with other things, like phaser captors being able to fire through web no matter what ship lays the web.

And fire control is always an issue with direct fire, and cast webs are direct fire (an E rule as opposed to a G rule like laid webs). So it is a captor if it is adopted at all, and as I said, you need to get SVC to agree to it. I cannot get around this is a captor mine and I do not desire to refit the current Web Caster Rules which allowing this thing forces.

Like I noted, I have no problem with the idea that the thing would lay web in its own hex [disruptor, photon, and hellbore Captors can fire at range zero under (M4.47)], but that is because of (M4.47) and that is because it is a captor mine itself (if it were adopted), but it is a captor mine firing a direct-fire weapon, it does require captor mine laying restrictions as such and cannot be used during a scenario, and if it were to have some means of firing on passive fire control, then that would (not might, would) be built into the fire control of every ship with a web caster and/or a snare (even if the resulting web was "foreign", which I just cannot accept).

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 05:19 pm: Edit

NOTE AGAIN: Despite the above from me, that does not mean that SVC will not bless the idea.