Handling Large Battles
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SFB Online Client:
Handling Large Battles
Large Battles and the SFB Online Client
This topic has been created to illicit ideas for changing the client to help handle larger battles.
Note: Just because it is suggested does not mean that it will be added
How can the SFB Online Client be changed to help with large battles?
Some of the problems with large battles are:
1) Large number of EAs.
2) Large number of pieces.
3) Keeping track of what has moved and what hasn't.
4) Keeping track of seeking weapons and their targets.
5) Keeping track of EW.
There are probably more but the above are but they are good enough to start the discussion.
Some ideas:
1) Automated Seeking Weapon movement.
2) A way of copying EAs from one ship to another ship of the same type.
3) A way of specifying a speed plot for multiple ships at the same time.
4) Automatically announcing speed changes and changing the ships speed accordingly. (Possibly a prompt)
Paul Franz
1. Have the Launching Vessel's Name (or some designator) in the name of Seeking Weapons, Shuttles, and Fighters.
2. Have all Seeking Weapons for a side be the same color. (This is a problem with mixed-race squadrons fighting, especially when some of the race may be on each side.)
3. Warning if you attempt to fire a weapon that has been destroyed or has already been fired this turn. (This is a problem with single ships, but the information overload and number of ships/weapons makes it worse with large battles.)
4A. For Problem #5, KEEPING TRACK OF EW, for each weapon fired, the Announcement in the Chat Area could include the Net EW for the Weapon/Target.
4B. For Problem #5, KEEPING TRACK OF EW, for Seeking Weapons, add an option for Right-clicking SWs and choose "Impact". (Could automate this when it reaches range 0 to it's TARGET, but could have problems?)
When this happens, it does an Auto REVEAL (Type, Target, Mission, Pseudo), announces Net EW between it and it's target (Could add Controller's ECCM, but then we need to be able to change control.) and Discards the SW.
(This would both handle EW and cut down the number of steps to announce and remove the SW.)
What I think would be really sweet, is after all fire announcements, display a fire summary, like:
10 Disr Range 15 no shift
5 Disr Range 15 +1 shift
15 Ph1 Range 15 no shift
You would probably have to build in an EW function in to the fire announcement, so it could take in to consideration last minute EW adjustements.
for 3. above it would perhaps work top change the color of the weapon designation in the Imp act window: Red for destroyed, yellow for allready fired.
Need to designate "loaned ECM" in the status bars of the individual SSDs. Right now, just displays current ECM.
Would be nice to have additional function keys available for groups. Ex: Alt-Function also allowed instead of just Cntl-Function. Would allow for more groupings of objects to move stuff around more quickly.
Just a though about automated seeking weapon movement: A friend developed a movement progam many years ago that handled seeking weapons. The first version did not allow player input, so it would move weapons based on an algorithm. Once the players understood the algorithm, it was possible to outmanuever the seeking weapons.
It was then changed so that the program recommended a hex for the weapon to enter, and the player could accept or override that hex. This allowed the controller to chase or intercept as required.
//offtopic//
You playing online now Jeff? Haven't seen you since Milwaukee, mid 90's
Gary,
1. I am not sure I like this idea in that it adds length on to the Unit Name. I will see if I can make it an option.
2. So basically have a color assigned to each player, correct?
3. I think Carl's idea about this is a good one.
4A. I would probably need to add a few things to the firing panel. Like Terrain EW and a column for an EW modifier in case there modifiers for Cloaking, Hex-based terrain, etc.
4B. Sounds like a good idea. As it is I know there was a suggestion a way back for "Seeking Weapon Movement" dialog. I think that would be perfect for this.
Seth,
I like that idea as a summary at the very end of the listing.
Carl,
I like that idea.
Ted,
Agreed. I need to make it configurable.
Jeff,
That is what I was thinking. I have Jim Hart's algorithm for moving seeking weapons.
Paul Fraz
Seeking Weapons Movement Window Idea
Basically, it would list all your seeking weapons, their targets, the targets locations (including facings), the movement of the SFW (i.e. side-slip left, side-slip right, turn to A, turn to B, etc), the ending location, range, impact check box which would be enabled.
Obviously, the only seeking weapons that would be listed are:
1) Ones that move that turn.
2) Are at range 0 of their target.
Paul Franz
Another suggestion:
It's really annyoing to spend 10 minutes inputting weapons fire and then have it all lost because your opponent wants to launch 1 shuttle. You have to re-input the check boxes each time IA is called and executed. As a result, i am often in the position of telling my opponent "non-fire IA" in order to help speed up the game.
Thus, it would be helpful to have the client maintain all previously clicked boxes in the weapons tab (without it reporting fire, obviously) in the event that an earlier IA is entered by your opponent. If possible, it should only save that info for the current impulse, so you don't have to unclick boxes every impulse you want to fire something.
I'd like to add that saving the contents of the text area would be useful as well for the same reason. It's less time to retype that, but losing my orders is annoying (especially if my opponent cancels the IA box - boy, do I hate that).
Hi Paul, got a Idea 
This is about your idea request "3) A way of specifying a speed plot for multiple ships at the same time.", and now having a current battle dealing with 50 odd ships and potential 300+ fighters on the board.
You already have Unit Grouping. So when the system sees there is a active group inplay. A tab appears along with all the other Ship tabs labeled groups or such. On that tab have a dropdown that lists the groups. When you finish the plot, click apply, it then goes thru the select group and applies the plot to individual ships. As a possible nice feature, if it encounters a ship that has had a indivdual plot already allocated. It then queary the user to override plot or leave as is?.
Now for a new idea. Add to the fighter launch screen, EW points automatically entered into the piece list grid?
Thats My 2 cents..
Merl
So, this has been a long-dormant topic, but I have several ideas that could be really helpful.
First, could use a new game control column: "Moves accumulated toward turn mode/sideslip mode." Could be presented in a format like EW, say, 2/1 for turn/slip so in this example, you can slip if you want and turn if your turn mode is 2. Especially useful for shuttles, seeking weapons and generic units which don't get the POT/POS markers. (Yes, even seeking weapons: They don't have a meaningful turn mode, but they do have sideslip mode!).
Second: If a seeking weapon is selected, highlight the hex of its target (only if known to the current player, obviously). If multiple seeking weapons are selected, highlight all their target hexes.
Third and finally:
Consider the contents of the "enhanced" unit tooltip I am complaining about in the bug thread. The information is useful, but in a tooltip (which inevitably disappears just as you have found the information you are looking for), it is not easy to find.
I specified out a bunch of stuff I would want in a new window, but then I realized that not everyone would want the same information, and then I realized all the information is in game control anyway. So:
* Create a shortcut key that does this:
If the mouse is in a hex with units in it, and the shortcut key is pressed, the game control window will filter the units it shows to include only the units that are in the current hex. Pressing the key again releases the filter and returns game control to displaying everything. This could also be implemented in the right-click menu (but only as an alternative. I would still want the shortcut key, since shortcut keys are much faster than right click menu).
#1: Doesn't the "MOVES" column work for what you need?
It is close, and maybe what I want is more properly considered a refinement of the moves column rather than a totally new one. It has two issues though:
1) It indicates only moves since the unit's last turn, and says nothing about sideslip, and
2) Drones, plasmas and shuttles never reset the counter to 0. Now granted seeking weapons have no meaningful turn mode, but shuttles do (and both have sideslip modes.)
I'm not quite sure this is the right place for this proposal, but here's my 50 cents.
How about a Battle Force setup screen with a BPV and CO calculator. This would allow players to put in BPV, year, and CO limits, select ships, add appropriate refits, designate expendables, and add CO items for each ship. Then the player could save the Battle Force for later use. Once gotten used to, the setup screen can streamline set-up, which would be a godsend for campaign players. And could encourage more scenario games.
Well, that's my 2-bits.
Joshua,
Some of what you propose makes sense. The CO limits and the ability to specify the COs when setting up the battle would be useful, the refits would be too. The designation of expendables would be, but I think it would be better to give people a tool so that they can have pre-defined loads.
BPV is limited use except to calculate COs and adhoc games, not so much for campaigns or scenario games where the setup is known.
Paul, the idea is for a host player to set the conditions available, then the other players fill in the screen within those conditions. Think of it as a master page for loading ships. Submit the page and viola your ships are ready to place on the map, or are automatically placed.
Paul: The Main problem I have have with the Current setup is all the variables are spread out all over the place and if you forget to add something, like say your drone load-outs or FTRs. You tend to be hurting badly when the game actually starts.
If all the ship set-up conditions where in one place, Mistakes like that and the occasional "Oops, that Type I was supposed to be a IV." wouldn't happen as often
I only asked for CO to be added as it would be handy to have all the items listed and easy to designate instead of having to go through the annexes, (which I've misplaced :-/ ), and calculate the hard way.
Even if Scenarios have preset conditions, the setup screen would still be a boon as you just input the info direct form the book. and off you go. Heck, this could be a way to finally put pre-made scenarios some folks have been wanting for a few years now.
Les: I didn't think of it that way, but that would work as well, if not better, than my original idea.
An interesting addition to my proposal came up this past weekend during a conversion on SFBOL. The ability to print out your fleets selection so they could take it to a FTF game.
I'd like to see a "next unmoved unit" and/or "next unmoved group" key/button. Otherwise I sometimes have to sort through which drones/shuttles/ships have yet to be moved, which is hard to do when there's 50 drones (or whatever) on the board.
Hmmm, some feedback after a unit has moved would be nice too. Perhaps a color change on the unit counter, and some marker in the game control window's unit list?
This is already available (sort of), it is one of the biggest time savers there is. Enable the "Move status" column in game control. It doesn't highlight on the board, but if you have enough units to need the feature, it's highly likely you have several of them in the same hex anyway.
Nobody should spend any time trying to figure out what has moved. Just turn the indicator on.
Some ideas based on recent experience playing campaign battles. However, all of these would be useful even in tournament games.
Dealing with Shuttle War!
Sometimes in a game you get a lot of shuttles buzzing around, and they all have names like S04.3.11 and S11.4.3 and it can be hard to tell them apart. One of the most important things you need to do to defend yourself against a shuttle swarm is keep track of which shuttles have fired and which shuttles have not. But this requires looking back and forth between the weapons status tab and the game control to find the shuttle's hex, then look on the board to visualize where it is.
This could be streamlined a lot by making it so that if you click on a unit in the weapons status chart (or a weapon within a unit's subheading, to make it easier), then it selects that unit in the game control and highlights it on the map. Now if I want to see where the unfired weapons are on the map, it's easy.
Improving Turn Mode Management!
Sometimes it's hard to keep track of turn and slip modes. The POT/POS markers are often hard to tell apart (all POTs for a race look alike), covered with drones and shuttles, misleading due to tractor beams or back-and-forth sideslips, or for whatever reason just not always easy to understand.
If it would be possible to create game control columns to keep track of moves-since-turn and slip-mode-satisfied (slip mode could probably be just Y/N), that could keep track of this in a much more compact way. For instance, suppose I turn, then slip, then moves-since-turn would be 2, and slip-mode-satisfied would be N. If I then moved straight, they would be 3 and Y, respectively.
I know the client already keeps track of this (the moves since turn at least) because it displays it in the chat when you turn, so I am just asking to also have it available in the game control. Heck, maybe it's already in there and I just didn't find it.
There are no POT/POS markers for shuttles or seeking weapons, but this would make it easy to keep track of their turn and slip modes as well - important for carrier battles. Otherwise, it is... awkward. Even seeking weapons could use this: They have the same sideslip modes as any other unit, and while they have a turn mode of 1 at all speeds, their turn mode is unsatisfied until they move after they have been launched or if they HET.
Dealing with Big Stacks, Part 1!
Sometimes I have a stack of units that are traveling together, but the unit I want on top doesn't match the unit the client wants on top. For instance, if I have a ship, and it launches an ECM drone, the ECM drone is always on top. This makes it look like my fleet is just a bunch of drones. I can reorder the stack but every time the units move, the client puts it back the way it wants it instead of the way I want it.
Dealing with Big Stacks, Part 2!
Create a "Stack Zoom" or "Stack Detail" or whatever floating window. Whenever I select a unit, all the visible counters (or, preferably, just units, if that's doable) in the same hex get displayed in there. This would include their counter icon, facing (displayed visually if possible, not just as a letter), and their name. Nothing else is necessary to display in this window.
This is similar to the "enhanced tooltip" that currently appears on some operating systems. BUT, I would be able to click the units in this window to select them. So targeting arrows would appear, I could then move the units with the game control move buttons, etc.
While I can see both sides of the question, I think the window should only update when a unit is selected, not when it moves. So if I move a unit into a new hex, it and the stuff in its previous hex would still be in the window.
Dealing with Shuttle War!
This should be easy enough to do. Since the selection in the Game Control automatically selects it on the board.
Improving Turn Mode Management!
The "moves-since-turn" is already there called "Moves". I will look into implementing a way to track slip mode.
Uh, why add more POT/POS? You are asking for a way to see the "Moves" and Slip status without the counters and then you are asking for more counters on the board. I could add them but I don't think you would like it.
Dealing with Big Stacks, Part 1!
Z-order for a hex is always a tough thing because if it is saved with counter. It needs to be in the same order on both ends of the board (i.e. you and your opponent see the same order)
Is that what you want?
Dealing with Big Stacks, Part 2!
This is an idea I want to do. But as you point out there are some issues. Also, would the "Stack Zoom/Detail" window have a set of movement controls? I would think not just because you would want to keep it as small as possible.
The question as you pointed out is: What defines the hex that is zoomed in on?
If it is selection, what happens when multiple units are selected? Should it be blank or a list of all units in all of the hexes that have a selection?
Currently, there is the option to see what is in the Stack by right-clicking on the unit and selecting "Stack/Show All Pieces in Stack"
Hi,
Thanks for replying.
Quote:[Dealing with Shuttle War] should be easy enough to do.
That's good to hear. What would make it even better: If a unit is selected in game control, highlight it in the weapons status display too.
Quote:The "moves-since-turn" is already there called "Moves".
That's a good start. However, it only works for ships. For shuttles and seeking weapons, it counts the total number of moves since launch. Also, the number displayed is one less than the actual number of moves since the last turn. So, almost, but not quite.
Quote:why add more POT/POS?
That isn't what I meant. I meant, "this feature I am currently asking for would help," that is, turn mode and slip mode counting in game control. Not having POT/POS markers for them. That would be too much clutter.
Quote:It needs to be in the same order on both ends of the board (i.e. you and your opponent see the same order)
My opponent and I might have different ideas of what should be on top. It would be better separate for each player, as it's just a question of how things are displayed, and that is usually personal preference. Now, granted, we already pretty much have the situation you describe, because both players have the same order, and nobody can control it, vs. if both players had the same order, but it could be changed. I still think people would complain, since at least this way the order is always the same, and everyone at least knows what to expect, vs. having it change every game depending on who wants what. There's no way to make a configurable z-order that is player-specific?
It might be possible to come up with a single ordering that works for everybody, but I tried and keep coming up with situations where it's wrong.
Quote:would the "Stack Zoom/Detail" window have a set of movement controls? I would think not
No, I wouldn't want to turn this into another game control. Just make it able to select things, and then you can do whatever to them using the game control.
But it gives me an idea. If there were a filter for this, it could be done with the existing game control. Sure, no counter icons, a couple extra clicks to use, but it would get the job done. Enable the filter, click the hex on the map, game control shows only the pieces in that hex. Click a different hex, get a different list of units (without having to turn the filter off and back on again!). It's not quite as cool, but it doesn't take up any more space on the screen, and maybe it would be easier to build. Or maybe not.
Quote:If it is selection, what happens when multiple units are selected? Should it be blank or a list of all units in all of the hexes that have a selection?
I don't really have strong feelings about this. Probably all the units in all the hexes, but I don't think it matters really. The times when you would need a stack detail window are not the times you would be selecting multiple units in different hexes. (Now watch someone come up with a situation where this is absolutely necessary! )
Quote:Currently, there is the option to see what is in the Stack by right-clicking on the unit and selecting "Stack/Show All Pieces in Stack"
Yeah. I use that sometimes, but it is limited:
1) You can't select units from there
2) It's in a submenu, so it's hard to get to
3) You have to reopen it whenever you want to inspect a different hex
If the "show all pieces in stack" window could select units and followed the selection without having to be closed and reopened, it would basically be the feature I was asking for, minus the counter image, which would be nice but not essential. On the other hand, it's possible now to open multiple stack windows on different stacks, and maybe somebody uses that ability.