C1.35 States that Weapons fire is never plotted but B2.4 indicates that the "me too" fire resolutionb method is unrealistic.

When one considers that a turn last for about a minute, then one could conside each impulse to last 2 seconds. If so there will be some Orders that are given that are too complex to be said in a 2 second period and the idea of an instantainious firing of weapons as soon as the aptain realises he needs it is unrealistic and indeed the idea that the Weapons officer will fire the instant he is ordered to is unrealistic, taking as much as a second to actually "pull the trigger" or longer if he need to move his hands to the correct control.

It stands to reason then that not only movement but also weapons fire should be pre-plotted in the truely accurate game.

How often do star trek fiction character say;" On my mark, fire all facing phasers...FIRE!"

C1.323___.0 Pre-plotted Fire
Preamble: A ship's captain can only do so much in any one instant and giving orders takes time, it's uncommon for a person to say 100 words in a minute, indeed 60 is quite fast. Therefore it becomes apparent that in an accurate representation, the captain will give the orders to Fire or launch weapons shortly before he completes giving the order.

However there is the effect of DRILL. Other Officers will become accustomed to the implicit and explict commands of an officer through their time in the academy and command school and later through frequent and command battle drill under this specific commander.

Thus all oders can be given through the use of several words, that are phrases in the scenence of the order strung togeather via a system called;" Star Fleet Combat Jargon " although the Klingons and Romulans and gorns have their own titles.

This specific set of jargon terms can be used to create all or almost all combat orders.


C1.323___01 Scope
This system of Combat Jargon is only used to cover the commands of weapons fiore and seeking weapons launch. The Captain is expected to give orders for other tasks without the need for writting the order down.


C1.323___1 Dictation Period
Each order will take a number of impulses to dictate and the number of impulses is listed with the command.
Add all the Dictation periods of all the commands and round the result up to the next number of Impulse ( if there is a fraction ) and add it to the Impulse that the order was first begun in ( the impulse the order was written down ). The next impulse will be the impulse of fire unless otherwise stated with a proviso.


C1.323___2 Jargon Terms

Provisos
It is possible to give orders that do not actuate until a certain even has been reached. These events are listed below and come in to categories:- Calculatable and impromptu.
Calculatable provisos are resoved the instant that they occour becuase the Weapon Officer could see it comming...the best example of this is "When the drone reaches range 1; Fire". The weapons officer has several impulses to see that one comming.
Impromptu provisos can not be acted upon by the Weapons officer because he first must hear the order, recognise it and react to it, meaning he will fire the impulse after the order is given.

Note carefully that unless there is a proviso the weapons officer will need to hear and recognise the order before he acts on it and thus will always fire on the impulse after the order is completed ( except where the privisos indicated otherwise.

On my mark 1 Impulse
This is the most common proviso that is added to the start of the order and allows for a much shorter order to be given at a latter stage, specifically:" Mark", "Now" or "Fire".
Whilst this proviso is active no other proviso of "On my mark" my be given.

When....reaches range 1 Impulse
This is the other privos and can come in several forms, such as "The Instant...reaches" and possibly "When our drone/plasma impacts then...".
It is a calculatable privso and as shuch the weapons officer will fire the instant the event occours.


Verbs
Fire 0.5 Impulses
This is the command word to fire the listed weapon(s) and is used as the verb in the command.

Narrow Volley 1 Impulse
This is the other command to fire and implies that the attack will fire and will be resolved using the narrow volley rules.

Launch 0.5 impulses
This is the Jargon term to fire a seeking weapon.

Bolt 0.5 Impulses
This is the term to fire a plasma torpedo as a direct fire weapon via the plasma bolt rules. Narrow volloey of a plasma torpedo is the term used to couple the plasma bolt and the narrow volloy.


Weapon Name and number
Weapons can be named specifically or grouped.
Since each weapon has a name Photon Torppedo Launcher A and Phaser #6 we can either lable the weapon by it'self in a string of weapons or name the weapon in a group of weapons.

all 0.5 Impulses
This is the lable to indicate all the next name weapon type.
Not weapons that have not cycled can not be fired.

facing 0.5 Impulses
This restricts the weapons that will be fired to those that can be brought to bear...it's not needed for range zero attacks or when the specific weapon is named or when all the weapon have the same arc, although if the target is out of arc and the weapon is ordered to fire, it will expell the shot out into deep space.
"Fire all facing phasers" is an example of the facing weapon order.

Phaser #X 0.5 Impulses
This is the specific phaser weapon that is listed.
Although the weapon listed could be a Photon Torpedo or Disruptor.
And example of such an order would be "Fire Disruptor B".

Phasers 0.5 Impulses
Pho-torps 0.5 Impulses
Disruptors 0.5 Impulses
Weapons 0.5 Impulses
These are the command words to list all of a specific type of weapon they can described by the specific name.

and 0 Impulses
This is term that makes order gramatically corect but cost no additional impulse to exspress.

Phaser Functions
There are several functions that a phaser can fire under such as firing a phaser-2 as a Ph-3 to conserve power. X-ships have even more functions.

Low powered 1 Impulse
This is the command to fire a Ph-1 or Ph-2 as a Ph-3.

Unassisted 1 Impulses
This is the command to fire a Ph-1 as a Ph-2.

Rapid Pulse 1 Impulse
This is the command to fire an X phaser in rapid pulse mode.

Overload 0.5 Impulses
For those that still use the overloaded X phaser rule.

Target.
There are several rule to cover a target that will allow the target to be implicit.
The target if not named will be the enemy ship.
If there are two equally valid target then the nearest target shall be the target. E,g a shuttle at range 4 and shuttle at range 8 and the order is "Fire all facing phasers on the shuttle" then the implict target would be the range 4 shuittle because it is closer.
Note however that targets that have been tractor will be not consider the most imdeiate threat and therefore will not be fired on if there is a second untractored target.

On the Drone 1 Impulse
This will direct the ordered fire to be levelled at the most approriate enemy drone target on the map.

On the Shuttle 1 Impulse
This will direct the fire to be levelled at the most appropriate enemy shuttle on the map.

On the Drone #1 1 Impulse
Because drones and shuttles are listed with a number on the counter then the fire may be levelled against that.

On the ship 1 Impulse
This target ship may be named by it's counter's name. E.g. Fire on the CL. Or. Fire on the D5.


On our... 0 Impulses to convert from "On the".
From time to time Freindly Fire is needed ( like after one of our shuttles has been captured by the enemy. Thus by use the word "our" in the command scentence the commander can order fire onto it.


C1.323___3 Proceedure
Write the order on a sheet of ordinary lined paper on the impulse that the order is started, listing the Inmpulse that it started and add the total number of impulses to that to determine the impulse when the order is complete.

unless there is a proviso the order to fire will be carried out on the next impulse.


C1.323___.4 Alteration
Because Labs will identify drones less effectively if an order takes too long, the range for identifying drones shall be treated as two hexes less than the actual range when the identification attempt is made.


Example.
A Fed CA is going to Fire against an D7. But first is must deal with the two speed 32 drones headed it's way.
The captain will deal with the first drone via tractor beam and thus shall not pre-plot it.
He may give the fire order in either the anti-drone or antiship order whichever he feels safest doing.
When the drone#2 reaches Range 1, fire; low power; phaser-5 & phaser-6. Total 4.5 Impulses rounded up to 5 Impulses.
And
On my mark, Fire all Photons and Phasers #1 and #2. Total 3.5 Impulses rounded up to 4 Impulses

By Ryan Peck (Trex) on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 09:18 am: Edit

MJC,

Why do you insist on throwing more sand into the machine? Is over 1000 pages of rules not enough?

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 09:43 am: Edit

I don't think I'll bite on this one. While I can appreciate the necessity of fire commands (which is what this rule is describing) I sort of consider them as implied by the game, in the same way that it is implied that other ancillary duties are going on in your ships. Frankly, the game is complicated enough already for me. Nice post, but not my cup of tea.

By John Trauger (Vorlon) on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 01:18 pm: Edit

Especially since turns are 30 seconds.

Agreed with the consensus. Unneeded and slows the game down without adding much enjoyment.

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 01:23 pm: Edit

I was going to be sarcastic but I decided not to be. You put a lot of effort into this.
However, this opens the door to many many things.
For instance, if time is that critical, then ships would use what quarterbacks use(for football).
A single or double worded phrased that details out a whole set of commands. When a QB says hail mary, that doesn't just mean that all receivers go out as fast as they can, it means all other players protect the QB against their assigned man.
I think the commands you talk about are used when stress levels are not quite as high or when he does have 10-20 seconds to deal with. Surprise situations are actually very rare in SFB, and perhaps it is during those times that commands might me delayed due to human "alien" frailties.
Let's look at a couple situations.

1. Fed CA is suddenly displaced by a Python, and reappears 3 hexes in front of an Imposer.
response: none, total surprise. Maybe an order to veer away "VEER!", or a curse "Sh1t!" or both

2. Rom begins to uncloak . . .
response: plenty of time to dictate orders ahead of time. "Ready photons, fire and turn 180 on my mark."
"I gotta use the bathroom captain"
"Do that later, Mark . . ."
(photons fire and miss and the ship HET's)
"NO!!!"

3. HET fails
Well, you got plenty of time now.
"I'm gonna kill you Mark!"

I think your proposal implies strongly that the ship is unprepared. The only use of this I could think of is to have it added to the list of penalties for a ship with a poor crew (and captain).

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 01:44 pm: Edit

And of course there's the fact that the captain is watching the scene and says "On my mark, fire all facing phasers ..." before the enemy reaches the appropriate range.

It takes very little time to say "FIRE!" & to press a button your waiting to press...

Of course, that raises the question of the practical joker captain...
"On my mark, fire all facing phasers..."
...
...
"don't FIRE!" ... "Haha, made you flinch "

By L.LeBlanc (Lessss) on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 01:44 pm: Edit

Besides I don't think of a turn as 30 seconds but 3 minutes, despite what the rulebook may say.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 01:52 pm: Edit

I can tell you that, having used them in the Army, fire commands are quite short. They can be made even shorter, to save time, and it's quite a common practice. In a tank, a TC doesn't say "shoot a sabot at that tank, gunner." He says, "gunner, sabot, tank" or just "tank". I can see starship captains having a similar practice, but don't think it's really needed.

By Robert Snook (Verdick) on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 04:27 pm: Edit

Or even what we've seen so far in TNG, ST:Voy, and DS9. Something like attack pattern Delta. The navigator knows what to do, the gunner knows what to do. No need to issue every single action.

By Mark Kuyper (Mark_K) on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 04:37 pm: Edit

Likewise pre-set response commands.
The captain isn't going to pick out a specific squad to attack an enemy transporter. He's going to pass that off to his subordinates about three weeks before the battle. As the enemy comes into sensor range he's going to leave commands such as "If we get into range and down a shield, send over commando's to take out the enemy transporter/phasers/what ever." Likewise there will be a priority listing for each enemy ship type.

By the time actual combat it joined, the Captain is more interested in making sure he gets his ship into the right spot rather than worrying weather he's passed orders for an SP or WW to be warmed up. He's got his SOP to make sure these things happen.

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 07:41 pm: Edit

An excellent example would be an episode called "Data Lore", when Lore was posing as Data.
When Picard (not knowing Data was actually Lore) listened to Lore's suggestion and agreed with it, he said, "Make it so."
Lore had no clue what that meant.
The point I'm making is that a well practised crew will have their own language, much like Mike Raper was saying. No long dialogue to issue orders.
"Sulu, range 8, Torps only, hold phasers 'til 5"
"Aye"
Spock, "Main unit is displacing!"
"Fire alpha now."
etc.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 07:45 pm: Edit

In Star Trek we have often see Captains give orders for pre-determind tactics. Like when Picard orders "Attack patern Delta!". I think during the many months of "Sheer Bordom" the bridge crew is working out such things for the "Few minuts of stark raving terror". As the rules say in the beginning, these things are assumed to be handled for you.

As for the "Me too" problem. All I can say is that I don't bother minding it. I can't base my tactics on my opponant not firing so if he/she fires that's just part of the plan anyway. My point is that you have to assume that your enemy is going to do the exact thing you don't want him to do. If they fire in reaction to my fire, then they're not firing when it is best for them, so that's good for me. I can rationalize it this way too. In many, many science fiction storys including Star Trek, sensors usualy pick up the energy build up in the enemys weapons ports and invaribly the Captain imediatly orders weapons fire and/or "Shields!". So, I see the "Me too" thing as acceptable. Besides, I don't see a way that is "all in fun" to mitigate it.

Can't beat 'em, join them.

If I get caught in a "Me too" situation, I am usualy gonna lose. On the battle map, I'll kill you when I'm good and ready!

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 07:47 pm: Edit

Glenn: you beat me to it. Or you were reading my mind. Whilst I was writing and editing, you were posting. Curse you!

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 08:37 pm: Edit

R.P.:
It's not "sand in the works" it's THE ULTIMATE IN REALISM...FOR THOSE CRAZY ENOUGH TO WANT IT.


M.R.:
As above but note the linkage of the rule to Preplotted movement...these are purely optional rules because they develop upon optional rules.


J.T.:
See A3.4


T.W.:
On my mark, fire all facing phasers takes just 3 Impulses to say.
Fire takes another o.5 impulses which is one impulse so the action of the fire will occour the next impulse.
By pre-emptively building the order you can get off your shots rather quickly after you realise that you need them.


ALL:
Perhaps a rule that allows Leg' Officers and Standard and Outstanding crew to have a number of one word or two word orders to be written onto another sheet of paper and hidden away would be worth while ( being shown to the controller if the other player insists ) that wouldn't cost anything to prepair but would cost one of the "standing order" slots.

In this way, to Fire all Facing Photons and Phasers bar one Photon and one Phaser and then fire those the next impulse could simply be "Delta Strike" which would be two 0.5 impulse words, so it gets said this impulse and happens next impulse ( and the impulse after that ).

I could definately see that, as a rule added on, to these rules.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 08:52 pm: Edit

MJC,

Again, I applaud the effort, but it's definately not my style. Nice job working it out, but no thanks.

By Mark Kuyper (Mark_K) on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 09:48 pm: Edit

MJC,
To effectively use this rule you'd have to come up with a listing of EVERY POSSIBLE ACTION in the game. It would be unfair to allow EW levels to be changed (or shield reinforced from batteries) with out the same types of commands. Likewise movement would need to be covered, launching and recovering fighters and shuttles, launching drones, and IDing drones. Now toss in everything I've not thought of.

I know you've been looking for another 'layer' for SFB. Likewise you've put a fair amount of thought into this. Unfortunately you've exposed the major flaw with this rule; it isn't nearly complete enough to cover all possible contingencies. As this is SFB (only game known for exchanging overloaded rulebooks at point blank), unless you can make the rule air-tight it WILL cause problems.

By Sean Bayan Schoonmaker (Schoon) on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 11:58 pm: Edit

This almost sounds like something more appropriate to roleplaying (GPD), than to SFB (where you are the ship).

I'd have to agree that it would make things much more difficult with little apparent gain.

What is the intent behind this?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 12:48 am: Edit

M.R.:

Yeah...It's a little like directed turn modes, or my "Turning by degrees" that is to say the extra degree of realism is cool for those rare few who'ld like to play a game where they need to be several impulses ahead of the game but MOST players prefere to make the less realistic, SNAP TURNS and ME TOO fire that gives them more opportunities.


M.K.:

I think not.
Preplotted movement seems to work without pre-plotting Transporter actions, Tractor Actions or Fire.
Why can't Preplotted movement be couple with "preplotted fire" without the addition of Pre-plotted everything.

---

Quote:

C1.323___01 Scope
This system of Combat Jargon is only used to cover the commands of weapons fiore and seeking weapons launch. The Captain is expected to give orders for other tasks without the need for writting the order down.

---

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 01:19 am: Edit

MJC: I get your point. You make sense to me. If I liked the pre-plotted movement rules your idea would (and it does anyway)make great sense. I wonder though if the pre-plotted movement rules are popular enough to warrent the work to creat, play test, and finalize an expantion of them. If it were a lone product, I would want to skim over some one elses rules to see what it was all about, but I wouldn't buy it. In addition I wouldn't want it taking up space in other modules either.

Of course there is nothing wrong, as far as I can see, with developing it as a house rule to share with the general SFB population. Maybe post it on a web site? Some super realists will surely like it. I hope you don't think I'm being sarcastic because I'm really not.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 01:22 am: Edit

M.J.C.: Unless I miss something in the rule, you will still see me-too firing, merely shifted several impulses earlier. (And even more irritating psychological gambits by announcing part of an incorrect order.)

By David Kass (Dkass) on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 01:47 am: Edit

The biggest problem I see is that it will make seeking weapons utterly lethal at close ranges. It takes 3 or 4 impulses for phasers to be allocated defensively (and impossible to define multiple targets since the seeking weapons haven't been launched yet). And seeking weapons are already more dangerous under plotted movement (due to the generally lower speeds and inability to react with movement until the end of the plotting period).

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 08:36 am: Edit

L.R.:

Maybe I'll get luck and there's some uber-doom's day reprint of the basic set.
SVC has already mentioned that one of my rules proposals would have been "swell" ( ECM generated by movement ) if I'ld written it back in about 1982.


R.W.:

Ummm let me see if I can express this right.

1) On the impulse you need to begin giving the order you write down the oder on sheet of paper and once written look at the commands and determine the number of impulses it takes to say.

You can work out how long it takes to say on a scrap of paper and then wait for the correct impulse to arrive if you like and then write it on the REAL Order's paper.

The orders are written secretly possibly behind your hand then the page is flipped face down or hidden under your SSD or placed in an envelope or otherwise made unable to be seen.

2) On the Impulse the order is "resolved" ( usually the impulse after it is completely given ), you show the orders paper to the controller. If the controller is yourself then just show it to yourself and if the other guy then just show it to him ( folding the paper so that he won't see and further orders ).
If the other player want to see it and you are the controller, fold away any orders that are not yet to be resolved and show it to him.


More over.
The me too is removed because the other guy doesn't know what order you gave.
"ALL FIRE" could be written this impulse and resolved next impulse, the only why to ME TOO out of that is for the other guy to write "ALL FIRE".
But since you could have written;" On my mark, Fire all Facing Phasers and Photons " there is the very real risk that you might get much closer than HERE in order to fire and inflict massively greater damage.

Sure you could be fool enough to wtrite, ALL FIRE and he could see you write SOMETHING and then write ALL FIRE himself and the next impuklse you would both resolve in a Pseudo-Me-Too situation but, the chances of that a greatly minimised.


D.K.:

Perhaps some kind of order like:-
PHASERS TO DEFENSIVE MODE or
PHASER TO YOUR DESCRESSION, should be made availible to the rule listing.

Although granting the phaser to the W.O.'s descression should have some penalty of interacting things outside the W.O.'s feild of command, like transporters and tractors.

And Phaser to defensive mode, should have some two possibilites, the unidentified seeking weapon fallback possition and the identifided seeking weapon table.

something along the lines of :-

Points to Destroy	Fire
3	1 Ph-3
4	1 Ph-1
6	2 Ph-3s
8	2 Ph-1s
10	2 Ph-3s + 1 Ph-1
12	3 Ph-1s

Defensive mode will be assumed to fire when the drone reaches R1 unless specified as another range, with another table of shots based all taken up by one of the "standing orders slots".

By Sean Bayan Schoonmaker (Schoon) on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 09:22 am: Edit

MJC: OK, that makes sense, and is somewhat like I figured. I was the thinking that the intent was simply to make captains think ahead a bit more.

Personally, I feel that this would slow down an already slow game. Might be interesting for the roleplaying aspect or as a house rule however.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 12:59 pm: Edit

Since P-3s are labled "Defencive" perhaps it should be asumed they are always in Def. Mode unless ordered otherwise. Klingon rear P-2s might fall under this definition as well.

By David A Slatter (Davidas) on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 01:11 pm: Edit

I think captians will have instilled alot more flexibility for their crew. For instance, if an enemy ship launches a drone at point blank, the defensive weapons officer will not wait for the captain. He will think "heck!" and fire whatever is appropriate without prompting. Chances are he will do exactly what the captain would have ordered. He will after all be extremely competent, and will have discussed these situations with the captain. Ditto, he will not be stupid over fire decisions. Within the guidlines outlined by the captain on approaching the enemy (where there will be a couple of minutes), he will know what range to fire.
Ditto the helm. He will know when saving energy for a HET is appropriate, and when to execute it, without asking the captain. Again, this will have been discussed and drilled.

The only time the captain should really need to open his mouth is in making very general tactical decisions, and general energy and speed allocation. The crew should do all the rest.

e.g. Captain says at 750,000km
Engage D7 at 80,000Km when possible, any power not used for weapons goes to speed. Disengage on 20% internals.

he may then addend very quick things - many of these may be completely unecessary, but may help co-ordinate the crew's timing.

e.g. HET - this tells the helm to prepare a HET and execute at optimum range, normally after fire.

e.g. ECM 4 - allocate 4 power to ECM, make it ECCM at your discretion.

e.g. Fire - the weapons officer will know what to fire (this would only be ordered if a change is required from discussed tactics).

Remember, this crew is the *best* Any member of it would be at least as good as a rated ace SFB player. Probably much better (it would be their *job*)

Actually, I think the best way to think of a captain would be as a Jazz conductor. The crew know many pieces of "music" (tactics) off by heart. The captain selects the piece depending on the situtaion, and simply conducts accordingly. In the same way that a truly professional Jazz orchestra can play differently at the flick of a batan, so will the crew of a starship to a good captain. The captain simply keeps all of their actions "in time". Meanwhile, individual members of the orchestra improvise.

Oh - and don't forget the never-mentioned technology of star-treck - the time warp generator. This ensures that time slows down considerably on the ship such that you have hours to decide on all these things anyway