Greetings all. I have created a new "race" and several new ships and weapons and would like some input as to their design and workability.
The Solarians are from another dimension. They have an assortment of weapons from their Phazed Particle Cannons (PPC) which fire four to six times a turn and can "phaze" through shields to large missiles which carry three drones as submunitions. They have a large range of ships as well. The battleship, which can take on an Andromedan Intruder and its sattelites, is at one extreme and the Corvette, a small PF-like, cloakable ship which carries a heavy-fighter that can cloak as well, is at the other.
I have done some playtesting, but need more input. I would be happy to send anyone interested my files. The descriptions are in Word format, the Annexes in Excel, and the SSDs were all done using Paint. At this time there are around sixty ships.
Hopefully this is the right spot to post this, if it is in the wrong location I appologize in advance.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 09:30 pm: Edit

Right place for having comment on the base concept. Hopefully, you have lurked long enough to judge the value of the comments you will receive.

Weapons that go through shields tend to prove very unbalancing.

By Chad Jenkins (Psivet) on Friday, August 04, 2006 - 06:25 pm: Edit

The weapons in question only leak through the shield at a rate of 1 point of leak for 5 points of damage. This damage can be absorbed by general shield reinforcement. If it doesn't work well that part of the weapon can be removed.
The PPC is also a two turn arming (3 turn if overloaded) weapon with a rolling delay for holding and it costs 3 points of warp per turn.

But we'll see

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 01:46 am: Edit

Chad: You may want to check (D3.3411). General reinforcement gets hit first and therefore can not stop leak points.

By Chad Jenkins (Psivet) on Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 02:01 am: Edit

The way that the PPC causes a leak is that the weapon is passing in and out this dimension. Normal it phazes back into this dimension just past the shield. General reinforcement catches that portion of the beam before it leaves this dimension. At least that is how I pictured it.

By Jeff Williams (Jeff) on Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 04:32 am: Edit

Nice special effects. Will make very pretty colors in the movie. Now let's talk about game mechanics and game balance.

(Let the kibitzing begin!!)

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 04:04 pm: Edit

Just don't let Ken Burnside hear you - there happens to be a Solarian League in the Honorverse (which runs Terra and could potentially be the ISC to the rest of the Honorverse's Y185 General War belligerents if it ever wanted to be) and he may want to bring their ships into Saganami Island someday...

OK, let him hear you - but just watch out that the name may already be taken for use in that universe, just as you can't go around calling your new race Minbari or Borg without treading on a few toes!


Gary

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 11:53 pm: Edit

Solarians were in use long before Weber was around. Asimov had Solaria; Norman Spinrad had The Solarians back in 1966; even earlier uses of the term exist. I'd like to see Weber sue Tommaso Campanella.

By Chad Jenkins (Psivet) on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 11:43 pm: Edit

Here is the rules that I have created for the PPC. I've limited the PPC to size class 3 and larger ships. Size class 4 and smaller use a PPL (Phazed Particle Lance) which costs half as much to fire (2W + 2W) and have half the fire rate (2 shots/turn, 1 shot/impulse).

The phazed particle cannon or PPC is the primary weapon of the Solarian Empire. The PPC fires multiple dimensionally unstable beams. Part of the beam is always in another dimension, which allows part of the beam to “pass through” shields and PA panels although it also tends to “pass through” small targets like fighters and drones. The terms phazed particle cannon and PPC are all used to describe this weapon.
(ES1.1) HEAVY WEAPON: The PPC is considered a heavy weapon and it is destroyed on “torpedo” hits.
(ES1.2) COST: It costs four points of warp power for two turns to fire a PPC and there is no capacitor system (H6.0). The cost to fire is always four points for two turns, whether one shot is fired, four shots are fired, or no shots are fired (see ES1.5 for overloads). If the weapon is not fired by the end of the second turn then the energy is discharged and lost. See (ES1.10).
(ES1.3) RATE OF FIRE: The PPC may fire up to four times during a single turn but no more than two times per impulse.
(ES1.31) A PPC may only fire at one target during a single impulse (with one or two shots) but may fire at a different target on subsequent impulses. A PPC may not fire more than four shots per turn, unless it is overloaded (ES1.5.
(ES1.32) The two shots from a single PPC can be combined into a narrow salvo (E1.6), possibly with other PPCs, pulse emitters, or phasers.
(ES1.4) DAMAGE: Use the PPC chart to determine the damage caused by the PPC. Find the range to the target on the table and roll one die for each shot. Then consult the chart to determine the amount of damage.

(ES1.5) OVERLOADS: A PPC may be overloaded. It costs four points of warp power to overload a PPC. This power may be allocated or can come from reserve warp power. The decision to overload the PPC must be made before any shots are fired. If any shots have been fired then the PPC may not be overloaded.
(ES1.51) An overloaded PPC may fire up to six shots during that turn but no more than two times per impulse. See (ES1.31).
(ES1.52) Once the PPC has be overloaded, it cannot be fired as a non-overloaded PPC. An overloaded PPC must fire by the end of the turn or the energy is lost. An overloaded PPC must cool down (ES1.6), on the following turn, even if the weapon is not fired.
(ES1.53) The maximum range for all shots of an overloaded PPC is 8 hexes.
(ES1.6) COOL DOWN PERIOD: If a PPC is overloaded, it requires one turn of cooling and cannot be armed or fired during the next game turn.
(ES1.7) SHIELDS: When a PPC strikes a shield, every fifth point of damage scored against that shield “phazes through” and scores an internal hit instead. General shield reinforcement will absorb “phazed through” damage before it scores internal damage and if the target has armor it hits the armor next as normal. Specific shield reinforcement does not stop “phazed through” damage however it will absorb the normal damage scored to the shield first (as normal). This is one instance when it may be better to use reserve power on general shield reinforcement versus specific shield reinforcement.
All damage points that “phaze through” a shield are resolved as a single volley. If the shield is completely down and there are remaining damage points to resolve then add them to the “phaze through” points and resolve as a single volley. In other words, a PPC volley will only resolve as a single volley for internal damage regardless of how the damage got there.
(ES1.71) EXAMPLE #1: A PPC volley scores twelve points of damage against a shield which has a strength of fifteen. The first four points of damage are resolved against the shield. The fifth point scores internally. The next four are resolved against the shield and the tenth point is resolved internally. The remaining two points are the resolved against the shield. So, out of the twelve points of damage, two points are scored as internal damage as a single volley, and ten points are scored against the shield reducing it to a strength of five.
(ES1.72) EXAMPLE #2: The same PPC volley of twelve in the above example is scored against a shield with only a strength of eight. The first four points of damage are applied to the shield, reducing it to four. The fifth point “phazes through” and is scored as an internal hit. The next four points of damage reduce the shield to zero. The remaining three points are added to the point of damage that “phazed through” making it a volley of four points that are scored internally.
(ES1.73) EXAMPLE #3: An enemy vessel is struck by a PPC volley scoring 15 points of damage. The shield struck has 18 remaining shield boxes and has been specifically reinforced by 2 points (allocated). 2 points of power were spent on general shield reinforcement using reserve power. 3 damage points “phaze through” the shields, one of which is absorbed by general reinforcement. The remaining 12 points are applied to the shield, of which 2 points are absorbed by specific reinforcement. The result: 2 internals are scored and the shield is reduced to 8 (18 +2 specific – 12 damage).
(ES1.8) PA PANELS: The PPC behaves just like a phaser against PA panels (D10.31) except that every fifth point of damage “phazes through” just like it does against shields (ES1.4). Damage caused by PPCs still may cause a “leak” (D10.33). Only count the damage that is actually scored against the PA panel as part of the volley and not the damage that “phazed through” when calculated if a “leak” occurred (D10.331).
(ES1.9) SIZE CLASS SIX AND SEVEN TARGETS: Due to size of these targets, some of the PPC damage “phazes through” and does not damage them. Subtract one point of damage scored against a size class six (i.e. Fighter) or size class seven (i.e. Drone) target for each die rolled. This damage is lost to space and doesn’t damage anything past the target, even if it is in the same hex.
(ES1.10) ROLLING DELAY: A PPC which has not been fired and is not overloaded may be held by rolling delay. The first turn of arming the weapon is lost and the second turn of arming is considered the first turn. On the next turn, three points of warp power must be allocated to the PPC. If power is not allocated then the weapon is discharged into space and the energy is lost.
(ES1.8) DESTRUCTION: A PPC is destroyed on “torpedo” hits and, for purposes of (D4.3221), in the order of priority the PPC comes before PPL (ES3.0).
(ES1.10) WEAPON STATUS READINESS: The PPC is considered a multi-turn arming weapon when determining weapon status readiness.
(ES1.11) REPAIR: A PPC is repaired [(D9.7) & (G17.0)] for fifteen repair points.
(ES1.111) A PPC may be hastily repaired (G17.5) for 8 repair points. The resulting weapon has only two shots per turn (which cannot be fired in the same impulse), although the cost to arm is the same as the PPL. A hastily repaired PPC may not be overloaded.

PPC TABLE
Die 0 1 2 3 4- 9- 16- 31-
Roll 0 1 2 3 8 15 30 50
-------------------------------------------
1 10 10 10 9 7 5 3 1
2 10 10 9 8 6 4 2 0
3 10 9 8 7 5 3 1 0
4 9 8 7 6 4 2 0 0
5 8 7 6 5 3 1 0 0
6 7 6 5 4 2 0 0 0

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 09:27 am: Edit

So at range 8, this weapon does 4 lots of damage averaging 4.5 damage each, some of which leak??? All for a commitment of only 6 power? That's at least as good as a R1 photon overload that costs 8 power to arm.

At R15 with an average of 2.5 damage per pulse, this weapon is also better than a disruptor by far, the king weapon at that range (doing equivalent of 5DSR's worth of damage for 3/5 of the power commitment).

This is the only heavy weapon with a range longer than 40, and it gets 4 shots - so does an average of 2/3 point at R50.

And last but not least, this weapon can do up to 60(!!!!!) points of damage when at point blank with overloads.

In other words, this weapon is about as good as a Plas-R, or ~3-4 disruptors. On a more comparable basis, it's immediately clear that it's about as good as 4 phas-1 - the extra damage it does offsets the fact that it can only fire every other round.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 12:18 pm: Edit

Without bothering to read the rules completely, here are some weapons you might want to compare against to get the right "gauging".

- Photon and Disruptor. These are the bellweathers, and you must be comparable to them in at least some way.

- PPD. This is a multi-pulse weapon. Note that it does multiple 4 point pulses.

- Helgardian weapon from E2. I forgot the name of the weapon (some kind of shotgun), but it also does multiple "hits".

- Kinetic Cannon. This Qari weapon from Module C4 does shield penetration and allows multiple shots per turn.

I am not suggesting you use one of the above weapons. I am, however, saying that your weapon needs to be in line with them. If your weapon is more powerful, it can easily become a game breaker.

By Chad Jenkins (Psivet) on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 01:26 pm: Edit

Actually my first message was incorrect on the cost to arm. It is four points of warp power for two turns. If it fired at overload for six shots it becomes a three turn arming weapon. So for 12 points of warp power (8 of which is on one turn) and three turns of arming at close range you can do 60 points of damage, yes. More damage than a Plasma-R but more expensive to arm as well. Essentially it does have the firepower of a ph-1 (it does more at close range but not as much at longer range) but it costs 2 points of warp power per shot.
The shield leak is only happens at every 5th points. In what playtesting I've done, this averages around 2 to 3 leaks before a shield is down and the leak is moot.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 03:10 pm: Edit

Err, doing less damage than a phaser-1 at range 31+ is not a decided drawback. Having a direct fire weapon as deadly as a successful hit with seeking plasma-R seems a trifle excessive. The cooldown turn is not much of a drawback if the enemy ship is too badly damaged to take advantage of it.

The PPC needs to have its damage numbers cut in half unless there is some gimmicky flaw in the ship designs that I have yet to identify.

Side note, the PPC is just the wrong weapon for the listed Andromedan heavy background. Displacement devices play havoc on weapons that must spread fire over multiple impulses. Very unlikely that a race would build ships centered around weapons that fail against the primary opponent.

By Chad Jenkins (Psivet) on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 06:16 pm: Edit

The damage numbers may need to be reduced, that is why I am looking for input. The biggest design limitation is that PPCs only have 120 degree arc. On all vessels but the battleship this is the FA. Also, about 95% of the ships with the PPC only have two (both FA). The other factor that I thought was limiting (and perhaps its not enough) is that it requires warp power and cannot be held at a lesser cost. I was thinking that with the warp need it put the weapon closer to the PPD. (Again, I could be wrong).

As to the side note, the Solarians develepoed the PPC well before the Andromedans arrived in their galaxy. And it did fail against the Andromedans which is why they arrived in the "SFB galaxy". The Andros that they faced (which was earlier in their history than in SFB) took over the galaxy and the Solarians gathered their remaining forces and ran...

By Chad Jenkins (Psivet) on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 08:07 pm: Edit

Here is the Solarian Heavy Cruiser
(Sorry, I don't know how to make those neat framed lists.)

Shield #1: 30
Shield #2,3,4,5,6: 24
Armor: 5 Points LS / 5 Points RS
Center Hull: 16
Lab: 6
Tran: 6
Bridge: 2
Emer: 2
Aux: 2
Trac: 4
Shuttle: 4
Fighter: 2
AWR: 4
Impulse: 4
L Warp: 16
R Warp: 16
2 Phazed Particle Cannon (PPC) - FA
2 Photons - FA
2 Missile
4 Phaser - 1 - 360
1 Phaser - 1 - LS
1 Phaser - 1 - RS
1 Pulse Emitter - LS
1 Pulse Emitter - RS
2 Anti-Fighter Torpedos

BPV: 189

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 08:35 pm: Edit

If I did the math correctly, the Solarian CA can generate 140 points of direct fire damage on one turn plus 72 points of seeking damage (per turn for 4 turns) plus the firepower of the two fighters plus having dedicated defensive systems. Makes the fabled 100 points of plazma seen unimpressive.

Chad: Most of the YIS dates you provide occur 10 years after the other universe Andros arrival as part of a new anti-Andro fleet. The ships should be best against Andros not worst against Andros.

By Chad Jenkins (Psivet) on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 10:46 pm: Edit

Ok...lets compare and blow stuff up. For the following assume optimal range for all weapons, if it can be overloaded/enveloped it has been, all rolls score maximum damage, and somehow everything has power.

Solarian CA: BPV-189
1 turn damage potential (1TDP):
2xPPC = 120
2xPhoton = 32
6xPh-1 = 54
2xPE = 18
2xMissile = 72
TOTAL = 296
6 turn damage potential (6TDP):
2xPPC = 210
2xPhoton = 96
6xPh-1 = 324
2xPE = 108
2xMissile = 216 (fires every other turn)
TOTAL = 986

ISC CA: BPV-185
1TDP:
1xPPD = 36
2xPLS = 120
8xPh-1 = 72
6xPh-3 = 24
1xPl-F = 20 (rear firing plasma 1 at ship)
TOTAL = 272
6TDP:
1xPPD = 108
2xPLS = 240
8xPh-1 = 432
6xPh-3 = 144
1xPl-F = 120 (one each turn)
TOTAL = 1044

ROM FH-K: BPV-179
1TDP:
2xPl-S = 120
2xPl-F = 80
7xPh-1 = 63
4xPh-3 = 16
TOTAL = 279
6TDP
2xPl-S = 240
2xPl-F = 160
7xPh-1 = 378
4xPh-3 = 96
TOTAL = 874

Fed BCF (32spd Drones): BPV-188
1TDP: 248 6TDP: 952 (assumed 1 turn reload for drones)

GORN CS: BPV-161
1TDP: 251 6TDP: 786

Hydran LB (w/3xSt-2) BPV-180
1TDP: 300 6TDP: 1274 (assumed one turn reload for fighters)

Klingon C7 (no upgrades) BPV-180
1TDP: 186 6TDP: 1116

As one can see, at current levels (without decreasing the PPC damage) the CA is comparative to most other races at the same BPV level. I based hulls upon the ISC(so they are bigger than say the Klingon and the Feds, thus the BCF and C7).

So yes it can do a lot of damage in one turn, but then so can most other vessels. And comparing an entire ships damage potential against a single torpedo (albeit big and enveloping) isn't exactly fair.

As for the Andros, I haven't had a chance to play against them yet..it could just as easily be another race that drove them from their galaxy.

By Chad Jenkins (Psivet) on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 11:13 pm: Edit

Let's go back to the Andromedan's for a sec. Note, I have not had much experience with them so take all of this with a grain of salt. If I'm right, then the Andro's muck up multi-impulse firing weapons because they displace themselves or the enemy ship breaking the chain so to speak. Now I'm assuming that it's believed that the PPC would be ineffective against the Andro's becuase of this. I disagree. First off, the PPC does not have to fire on consecutive impulses. It can fire two shots on one impulse and then fire its remaining two impulses later that turn. This gives the ship time to reorientate itself. Second, the PPC has the same effect on PA panels as it does on shields. So even if it becomes a mid-range fight, it's possible to score internals against a foe that is notorious for avoiding internals.
Like I said though, I haven't had a lot of Andro experience but the theory sounds right.

Anyhow, thanks for all the input so far. It's good to have a different view.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 03:10 am: Edit

Chad: Let's consider the Hydran LB versus Solarian CA in a simple charge. The theoretical damage numbers of 340 for the Solarians (counting fighters) does not look that much worse than the 300 for LB. However, this omits 2 factors. First, the CA and fighters AFTs should manage to cripple the Hydran fighters at range 3 or greater defusing that threat. Second, 60 points of Hellbore damage have to be spread amongst other shields. Ship mounted DF is better than fighters or seeking weapons; Solarians have that advantage in spades.

The AFT ability to reduce fighters, drones and plasma plays into this. Most of the other ships of similar size can be expected to have to divert some weapons to defensive use hence reducing their damage numbers.

Calling a ship a CA but having it able to readily defeat BCHs is excessive. Engaging in reducing Solarian abilities by about 20% should result in a more entertaining game. The Solarians should also have some ranges to avoid to force a more dynamic battle.

The displacement device has 2 effects. If the Andro self-displaces after being fired upon, the Andro might be out of overload range and gains time to do all the PA trickery noted for survival. Displacing the Solarian can yield similar benefits if the Solarian targeted a different Andro than the one conducting displacement. Fewer hexes of movement are compensated with the disruption of fire control.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 06:45 am: Edit

Chad. your damage potentials miss out matters of HUGE importance.

1) The photon is a DF weapon, as is the PPC, as is the phas-1. With just a minimum of planning, you can probably get all of this to hit the same shield. = 206 on the same shield... It's possible that this will be reduced if the enemy has turn modes reserved, but only by 4 PPC pulses, and the other races have much bigger problems hitting the same shield as shown below...

2) The missiles are terrain weapons, and probably won't hit. Don't know about pulse emitters, but i will assume that they are mainly defensive, so I won't count those either.

3) So, Solarains have an alpha on one shield of 206.

4) Now, look at the ISC CA. Let's assume the phas-3s are being used defensively (like the pulse emmitors). It has a rear Plas-F, but it will be a miracle if you get that to hit the same shield as the main wepons, so we will ignore that for now.

5) The PPD at R4-10 will only do 4 per pulse on the same shield, and that makes a large assumption that the enemy does not manuever to spread the damage. Also, it doesn't co-ordinate well with point blank Phas-1s (myopic zone). So, lets give these 24pts on the same shield for your alpha.

6) The plas-Ss will do very little on the same shield if you lob them enveloping. Not very useful for an alpha. And you also have to get them to hit. Likely result is that you will lob them as sabots and do about 40 damage, possibly on a different shield. Let's say you are good, and hit the same shield as you hit with the PPDs = 64 total on same shield.

7) Add in the phas-1s, and we get 136 total. Significantly inferior.


8) let's look at the Rom. We multiply down the plasmas as before. Probably 40 for the Ss and 20 for the Fs. And boy, you are doing well if you get all that to hit and hit the same shield even if the solarian goes to R2 (he will HET). So. 60.

9) Add in phas-1s to get 123. Significantly inferior.

In each case, the Solarian CA comes out almost crippled, while its enemy BCHs get gutted or even blown up.

In other words, you have entirely ommited the facts that
a)direct fire weapon damage is much more useful than seeking weapon damage.
b) weapons that can be engineered to only hit one shield are much more useful than weapons that spread the damage.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 01:32 pm: Edit

and plasma damage in inflated because some of it will be expended shasing the target down and be ablated by the target's phasers.

A DF ship that puts out damage equal to a plasma alpha strike, that's massively too powerful.

By Chad Jenkins (Psivet) on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 03:11 pm: Edit

You are right, I was going for a theoretical maximum. So lets see if the PPC damage factor is cut in half.

PPC TABLE
Die 0 1 2 3 4- 9- 16-
Roll 0 1 2 3 8 15 30
--------------------
1 - 5 5 5 4 3 2 1
2 - 5 5 4 4 3 2 1
3 - 5 4 4 3 2 1 0
4 - 4 4 3 3 2 1 0
5 - 4 3 3 2 1 0 0
6 - 3 3 2 2 1 0 0

Would this work better. Would I keep the arming the same? 4W + 4W for 4 shots (2/impulse), overload +4W for 2 more shots. I feel it should still be warp power for the potential shield phazing. What do you guys think?

By Chad Jenkins (Psivet) on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 06:18 pm: Edit

An addition to the previous post. Originally, when I first designed the PPC could fire all four shots in one impulse. I had changed it because I felt it caused to much damage in one impulse. However with the reduction in damage, could the weapon revert to up to four shots in one impulse. Without the ability to fire four shots then in the 4-8 range (and longer) the fact that every fifth point of damage can "phaze through" is pointless, which is the whole reason for the weapon needing warp power. I would like to keep the phazing if possible. Opinions please.

By Chad Jenkins (Psivet) on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 09:54 pm: Edit

After further thought..I like the two shots per impulse max. Perhaps if the leak were dropped to every fourth point. This would average to 1 leak point at the four to eight range with the two shots. The avg leak at zero range for an overload shot is 6 points, but with an average damage for those six shots at range zero being about 25 points, the shield would be down (considering phaser and PE fire) anyway and the leak wouldn't matter.