Archive through October 20, 2005
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
New Rules:
(FD) New Drones:
Warp Bubble Drones::
Archive through October 20, 2005
proposal:War Bubble Drones.by Jeff Wile.
Kzinti Scientists and Engineers labored for decades to improve drones and drone technology. By year 202 the Kzinti Hegemony Science and Tecnology Consortium announced that they had "perfected" a tactical drone capable of warp 4 speeds in a tactical combat application.
The actual history of how this discovery was made would (and did) make a fine Trivision History/Drama series but the details are:
On August 1, 202 the Kzinti modified an older BC with warp bubble drone launchers. These drone racks to all intents and purposes are identical to norma type 'A' racks except that there was a warp plasma conduit connecting the racks to the warp engines.
The operation of the drone racks is also similar to that of normal type 'A' racks except that each rack must be energized with 1 point of warp power. there is no holding fucntion, the drone must be launched some time during the 32 impulses of the turn the power is allocated.
This warp energy is used to create a "Warp Bubble" of Warp plasma immediately infront of the drone rack.
This warp bubble allows the drone (when launched) to move (at a maximum duration of 1 tactical impulse) at higher accelleration than the limits of tactical combat. The apparent accellerationis at finite distances determined by the warp factor the drone is moving at. for example.
Warp 4 drone moving for 1 impulse moves 2 hexes.
warp 5 drone moving for 1 impulse moves 4 hexes.
Warp 6 drone moving for 1 impulse moves 7 hexes.
Warp 7 drone moving for 1 impulse moves 11hexes.
Warp 8 drone moving for 1 impulse moves 16hexes.
Warp 9 drone moving for 1 impulse moves 23hexes.
Warp10 drone moving for 1 impulse moves 31hexes.
The drone launch occurs during the normal turn sequence...but instead of moving a single impulse at the normal time, the drone moves the indicated number of hexes.
The drones are only capable of the higher speeds for a maximum of 1 impulse due to the fact that the launching ship is generating the warp buble which is expended at the end of the impulse the drone moved. Since the Drone does not have the warb bubble provided for it at the 2nd impulse (since it is no longer in the rack of the launcing ship the drone movement reverts to a normal type 1 fast drone.
Among the advantages are:
1. Since the drone is moving faster than any known sensore or scanner can track it, the drone is effectively untargetable during the impulse of accellerated movement. upon disapation of the Warp bubble the drone returns to the scanners and sensors and is treated as a normal type 1 drone for all purposes.
2. Gives the drone launching ship the limited ability to treat the drone as a direct fire weapon for 1 impulse.
3. Gives the launching ship the ability to get its drones into combat faster than conventional drones would allow.
Unfortunately, there are significant disadvantages for using this system due to the fact that it is pushing the envelope of the technology right to the limit of the existing metalurgy, software and hardware engineering. the list of disadvantages include:
1. Only the warp 4 drone functions reliably 100% of the time. All other faster drones have an increasing probability that the drone will lose tracking ability and go inert upon the disapation of the warp bubble. the scale of the progressive drone failure is:
warp 4 0 chance in 6 of going inert.
warp 5 1 chance in 6 of going inert.
warp 6 2 chance in 6 of going inert.
warp 7 3 chance in 6 of going inert.
warp 8 4 chance in 6 of going inert.
warp 9 5 chance in 6 of going inert.
warp10 2 die 6 need 12 result or go inert.
Hypothetically higher speeds could result in
warp11 3 die 6 need 18 result or go inert. etc.
2. drones may not be launched with active targeting....warp bubble drones may only be launched ballistically. Further, the impulse the drone is placed in the target hex, the drone may not be "required" by active firecontrol. only ATG drones are usable...and only targets in the FA arc of the drone may be targeted.
3. possible special rule: the chance of the Warp Bubble ATG drone successfully acquiring a target solution is based on the targets size class.
for SC7 target 1 in 6 chances
for sc6 target 2 in 6 chances
for sc5 target 3 in 6 chances
for sc4 target 4 in 6 chances
for sc3 target 5 in 6 chances
for sc2 target 6 chances in 6.
4. There must be only open space between the launching ship and the target hex of the ballistically launched warp bubble drone. any impediments such as planets, web, ESG will cause the Drone to go inert immediately. (other ships, fighters shuttles drones or plasma torpedos would seem to have no effect).
Comments?
Oh...sorry, one more restriction...drone must be targeted on an open hex...if there is any object in the hex (ize class 7 or bigger) the ballistically targeted drone arrives in, the drone would immediately go inert. it is legal to target a hex adjacent to a legal target for the ATG drone...and since the drone is moving at speed 32...the drone (if it acquires the target) would move the next impulse as any normal drone would...
This is effectively giving drones --in practice-- a disdev at the cost of accuracy.
The warp-4 version gives me a moment of speed-64 which can force fun little 3-0 impact situations at no loss of accuracy.
At and above warp 6, these are direct-fire drones with no defense other than missing.
It's just too much speed "balanced" by too bad an accuracy problem.
I agree with Vorlon. Not to mention, the steves may have something to say on this based on the fact that the Plasma Sabot (which moves twice 8 times in a turn) loses that extra movement if the torp is launched on the impulse before it moves twice (to prevent a sudden 1 impulse at range two strike with a plasma). If you know what I mean.
Drones can only be placed in an empty hex...not in the same hex as the ship being targeted. always gives the target the opportunity for drone defense at range 1.
secondly, the WBD's can only be placed at ranges 2, 4, 7, 11, 16, 23 or 31 hexes. no others...and if the drone is placed so the target is not in the drones FA arc...the drone has no target and goes inert.
The result is a direct fire weapon where the defender gets one impulse opportunity to defeat the drone. Contrast this with a photon where there is no defense.
...But it will still allow you to target a carrier past its screening escorts.
It's still effectively putting a dis-dev on a drone.
but every one of the screening escorts and the carrier each have an impulse to use drone defenses.
not to mention fighters, shuttles ESG (if the target is Lyran) Web and everything else that functions as drone defense.
the only real change is fewer firing opportunities in a single game turn (assuming 32 impulses.)
That's not necessarily a trivial change.
Is a carrier's eschorts get more than a hex or two ahead of the carrier then you get to shoot right by them
OK then...What if a rule is added that there must be a clear line of sight to the targeted hex?
That way if an escort is in the way the WBD's can't get a clear shot...but could shoot the escort assuming they had a clear shot at it.
I just read this thread, Jeff, have read about the Fliver Hyperdrones? I think they are in C4 and have a similar flavor.
One of the problems I have with this is that it is too easy to have "opportunity fire", and the amount of damage is far worse than most heavy weapons.
All the drone ship is doing is waiting for a target to be vulnerable in a large action. A ship that has fired its phasers on Impulse #25 to have them available on Impulse #1 of the following turn suddenly finds itself facing four type-I drones, or 48 points of damage.
The upshot is that no Kzinti fleet is going to go into battle without a couple of DFs that just hang back waiting for a target that has used up its drone defenses. This has the effect of forcing the opponent to hold phasers for defense against sudden arrival of these drones, reducing their fire power more. And the DFs do not even have to launch drones, simply the threat that they will do so will for the opponent to hold phasers to defend against it.
This is a considerably different dynamic from normal in that an opposing player could plan and allocate defenses, even mines, after observing drone launches. Even determine a specific number of phasers to allocate to that defense or plan on maneuvers to bring off side phasers into arc.
This system eliminates the T-bomb defense, effectively eliminates Emergency Deceleration and Weasel, severely degrades the value of ADDs, among other things.
I cannot support it.
Roger, I will take a look at the Fliver Hover drones. (New job, and not enough hours in the day to do all that I want to get done. Time Management is becoming a serious issue in my life. 
)
Steve Petrick:
Is the proposal salvagable?
Specifically, if the target hex for the Bubble Drone were set at 2 or more hexes away from the targeted ship, the increased range would allow escorts, other non ship units (like fighters shuttles etc), and the target itself to have additional impulses available for point defense.
In **theory** atleast, the number of hexes away from the target that the bubble drone 'lands in' could be set at any range needed for game balance purposes.
If the range were increased to 8 hexes, say, then a speed 32 bubble drone has a 1/4 turn window to close upon its target, and the target&allied forces have a better opportunity to plan the defenses accordingly.
Jeff Wile:
I was not killing the proposal. You guys can feel free to work on it. It was just that on reviewing it, I did not see anyone considering the larger tactical considerations. The basic design would have made them deadly in fleet battles and optimized small drone ships (as I tried to point out) as a supporting arm.
I did not bother to point out the effect such a thing might have on stationary targets, such as bases, in the original proposal.
A proposal is not just the rule itself, it is its effect on the game, and that in turn is not just the 'duel' but the squadron and fleet battle as well, and the assault on a fixed position.
Note also that you would have to cover the effects of mines during their "super light movement". I am sure you intend them to still trigger such a mine, but you need to cover it.
Steve Petrick:
I think I understood you, I was asking if there is sufficent value to justify continued discussion on the idea.
IMO "Tweeking" the proposal would possibly include:
A. Increase the range from the target that the "shooting ship" can "land" its Super Light Movement" drones. (if the bubble drones can be landed 8 hexes from its intended target, and from that hex executes speed 32 movement, then the "time on the map" for the drone is only 8 impulses instead of (32 times the number of turns endurance for drone)... thus simplifying the game somewhat.)
B. Clarify the conditions that make a bubble drone attack possible, by adding mines and any other terrain features or systems such as ESG, Tholian Web etc to the list of prohibited conditions. (in the original proposal, the warp bubble effect only gave drones a "head start" of between 2 and (generally 50% of the time) 11 hexes of movement in 1 impulse. Beyond 11 hexes the accuracy and ability to successfully execute a Warp Bubble drone attack falls off rapidly to 31 hexes where the player must roll a 12 result using 2 six sided dice (about a 3% likelihood).
I did not include mines originally as I did not want to open the possibility that WBD's could be used to detect mines (by forcing the WBD to go inert in the hex that the mine occupyied). Worse still, (IMO) is causing the mine to detonate by the mere detection of "Super Light Movement"... such a result is much more favorable to the mine sweeping player than the current rules on mine sweeping allow.
C. By increasing the range to target from the "landing hex", the impact of WBD's is minimized as bases would have the same set of firing opportunities that ships would get, if not the chance to manuver...
D. by increasing the number of hexes of range to target from the "landing hex", perhaps the accuracy table in the original proposal should also be amended... make the chance of a successful "super Light Movement" launch of a WBD better than originally stated?
I am certian other ideas could be introduced that might work better in the SFB game system.
Here's are my two questions:
1. Are you considering overall play balance of SFB in this proposal? (Which seems to be for Kzinti, only, based on the intro?)
2. Why do you feel that the Kzinti need more options of things to do with drones?
Jeff Wile:
Actually, on reflection, I think your biggest problem is that the background of SFB says that units traveling faster than tactical speeds (i.e., faster than speed 31 for ships, and 32 for seeking weapons) CAN be engaged. And that a phaser-3 is sufficient to do major damage to a dreadnought engaged while moving faster than speed 31 such that no unit moves faster than speed 32 unless disengaging away from the enemy.
With that background data point, would it not be required to allow any ship or other unit to fire at any bubble drone on the impulse of its movement, at any point in its movement, with any single point of damage resulting in the drone's destruction?
Naturally, this would require the drone's movement from launch to where it is placed on the board to be traced, any unit wishing to fire would have to declare that it is doing so, and all such fire would be committed even if the first shot destroyed the drone.
Gary,
The proposal would affect all drone using races, not just the Kzinti's as once the technology was deployed, others would need to follow suit. (see how drone technology becomes widely available after the initial use by the "designing race" for other existing drone types.)
secondly, it is not just Kzinti, but rather a wide spread improvement of drones that will (in theory) reduce the number of ship launched drones on the map board during a series of SFB game turns. by "skipping" intermediate hexes during a given turn.
(for example, if the range to the enemy fleet/target is 30+ hexes, movement of all but the last few hexes (the original proposal called for 1 hex, we are currently discussion increasing the last phase of the drone attack to 8 impulse/1 quarter turn)... that way 22 hexes of the drone approach doesnt elapse that (in many cases) slows the game down while players move the drone counters 1 impulse at a time each impulse.
The idea was to skip the majority of the drones movement while still allowing the defending ships/bases etc the opportunity to engage with point defenses.
As such a bubble drone would be worth more than a fast, moderate or slow drone would cost...at least in BPV terms... but we havent even begun to address that aspect as were still discussing if such a thing as bubble drones could even exist or function in a SFB combat situation.
I should also point out that bubble drones could only be launched by ships with warp power availble... or atleast ships with AWR's.
No Def Sats, Scatter packs or fighters could ever use them.
Only ships.
Jeff,
Your proposal did not mention any other race getting this technology once the Kzinti invent it.
Decreasing the number of drones on the board will speed up play. It also decreases the opportunity for drone defense. There are ways to defend against drones, other than point defenses, that this eliminates. (Special Sensors breaking locks, ED/Weasel from more than the distance the drones appear, etc.)
I consider BPV cost of any proposal less of a consideration than it's effect on play balance. If it's good, people will pay for it. If it's TOO good, people will cheerfully pay for it.
Gary, I do agree with you.
the attempt to balance the ability to use the WBD verses the chances of the drone going inert was to restrict its use to combat ranges between 2 and 11 hexes (more than 11 hexes meant less than an even chance to get any use out of the drones, just a net decrease in BPV of the purchase price).
By increasing the distance between the target hex (the hex that is occupied by the base, ship or non ship unit or whatever) to x number of hexes (8 is the last number used) it effectively makes the WBD identical to the perforamace of a fast (speed 32) drone during the terminal 1/4 turn (8 impulses) as it approaches the target.
The use of WBD's also complicates the drone using races ability to "build" a wall of drones.
When combined with conventional drone tactics, the WBD gives the drone using player the ability to add one additional drone (the WBD type) to any drone wall he could build by using the "super light movement" ability of the WBD to catch up to the normal speed drones previously launched. (which again complicates the drone defenses of the defending player.)
It may not be good for the game as SPP has observed... but there is atleast a chance that it might spur some one to make a suggestion that does have merit.
Steve Petrick:
I did not respond to your earlier as I needed more time to prepare an answer.
With regard to the point on SFB back ground that states that super fast movemnt targets can be targeted (and damaged or destroyed)... it is consistant and yes, WBD should be targetable during the SLM phase (super light movement). we are talking about 4 damage point capacity drones here, and all other factors being equal, a p3 at minimal range will normally be successful to kill it if it can inflict 4 points of damage.
At range 11 hexes, a phaser 3 inflicting 1 point of damage on a SLM (WBD) drone will kill it with a successful hit of 1 damage point...or the same phaser 3 could kill another type I drone if it is closer (say 1 or 2 hexes)...that is a tactical choice that a play needs to assess at the time.
Given the choices, it might make sense to deal with the more immediate threat (the fast drone 1 or 2 hexes away from impact before dealing with the WBD that (depending on the suggestion of increasing the landing hex range to target of 8 hexes) wont be a threat for another quarter turn...
and if a player has to expend 1, 2,3 or more phaser shots to guarantee a kill... he might choose to let the WBD make its approach unimpeded while the drone defenses deal with the rest of the drone wave.
(This is ignoring the possibility in the original proposal that the WBD might go inert).
I think that your suggestions that any ship desiring to shoot at the SLM (WBD) drone be allowed to conduct the attack should be included in the proposal...The first question that I would have is would the SLM WBD qualify for the small target modifier? would the WBD have the same electronic warfare capacity of a normal drone ? (IIRC it is normally +2 ECM, +2 ECCM, but I hadnt double checked that aspect yet).
And for that matter, since the drones are launched ballistically, and are not emiting ATG or active fire control or homing in on its target using the normal fire control rules, would they be subject to any other modifications for game purposes?
My feeling is that they would not, but I will defer to your judgement on that issue.
Jeff: Several problems occur to me.
1) In a close pursuit, the defenses could be depleted allowing the next wave of drones to emerge at close range safely. Sure, some drones might not make it, but the rest will have an easy time getting through before the phasers recycle. Fast drones plus impulses the target ship can't move equals instant cheap kills.
2) This rule requires a higher degree of trust between players than I tend to prefer. It is far too easy to envision a player slipping up and having the dogfight drone go inert while the Type-IV drops in close to the opponent.
3) The preceding paragraph reminds me of yet another problem. A force could have more drones able to launch this way than the defenders can kill but the defenders will be unable to priortize the defenses since drone ID can't been done as the WBD races along.
Seems to me this won't work well with the numerous types of drones. Maybe such a flinger could be made to work with a new race that only has a single model of seeking weapon.
Jeff:
I guess I'll belly-up to the bar and see what I can dish out. Now I do understand that this is a work in progress but I noticed a few things that could cause some problems.
The type of drone you are describing as using could not use ballistic targetting. Ballistically targetted weapons do not target units but a hex (but can be used against ground targets). They also require no control from the launching unit and therefore do not need ATG. The exception being Type-IIIXX drones (FD5.25) which after reaching their final waypoint, switch on their targeting scanners and seek a target.
Normal drones get no EW in of themselves. ATG drones get 2 ECCM (no ECM). The only other drone I can recall that gets EW is an ECM drone (which gets 3 ECM).
Richard,
1) part of this is dependent on how many hexes range to the target exist from the "landing hex" (the hex that the super light movement ends)... the original proposal suggested 1 hex... SPP pointed out that such a close placement prohibits adequate opportunity for drone defenses to function as designed. To remedy that problem additional hexes have been suggested (the 1/4 turn 8 hex number being the standard that we have been discussing lately.)) What this means is that a WBD equipped ship could "stand off" a limited distance and launch WBD's that could travel between 2 and 11 hexes, then "land" in a hex 8 hexes away from the target.
The problem is it would be exceedingly difficult for a player to build a big enough drone wall using just WBD's alone... and the WBD's range limitations would prevent mixing large numbers of extended range drones with WBD's from only 11 +8=19 hexes away from the target.
(now if WBD could work from 11 hexes effectively, the drone defense task would be much more difficult, but that is not what the proposal calls for.)
2. I admit that could be a problem, I envisioned that the roll to determine if the drone "goes inert" would be a public roll...but recognising that the WBD is ballistically targeted, and must be ATG equipped, the maximum range that an ATG could function is (IIRC) 8 hexes...and since the drones would function as speed 32 fast drones after completing the SLM phase...might not be as much of an issue as it could have been if the normal drone rages were used.
Also, we haven discussed really, if dogfight drones could even qualify for super light movement... given the total number of hexes involved... we could just rule that type VI drones could not qualify for WBD usage unless the total number of hexes to be traveled is equal to or less than the total number of hexes that a normal type VI drone would be capable of traveling through.
3. "Labbing" drones (using labs to identify drones) could be performed during the period that a WBD is making its terminal approach (the 1/4 turn/8 impulses) to the target. in that period, it would be identical to identifying "normal drones". The period of "Super Light Movement" (SLM) is just 1 impulse. We could make a modification to the rule that allows labbing to be performed during the SLM impulse...
A nice addition to the Peladine race... do you suppose? had they survived to the trade wars era... able to "land drones" outside of the effective combat envelope of the enemy races... gee that could be a scary combination!
William, you raise valid points...and yes, the ability for the WBD to acquire targets using ATG is a different capacity than the normal system calls for.
ATG is needed once the WBD "lands" in the entry hex after completing its Super Light Movement phase"... and if there is no valid target within the 8 hex range limit of the ATG/WBD then the drone would go inert imediately.
If there were a target that otherwise could qualify for ATG targeting, then the WBD would acquire it and act from that point as if it were a normal fast ATG drone.
All of this inaddition to the roll to determine if the WBD successfully lands in the hex after its super light movement. (see the original proposal).
I misremembered the ECM ability of drones, sorry for the error.
Jeff:
Don't fret about the EW capability. It is very difficult to remember every single nuance of SFB completely accurately, let alone convey exactly what one is thinking on the message board.
Speaking of such, I didn't do so well myself. My confusion comes from the mentioning of ballistic targeting and ATG (ATG cannot aquire it's own targets) in your description. Bear with me on this. First off, when you mention these abilities it makes someone think of how those systems work in the game. Now, if your drone uses a similar system to this, but it's effects are different, you'd be better off cutting out the mention of it and detail how your drone works. Examine the Type-III drone rules (FD5.25) and you may see where I'm going with this. It uses a special form of ATG that allows it to aquire it's own targets (unlike other drones).
Now, perhaps your drone could be a modification of the Type-III drone (since it is so similar in operation). That would allow it to aquire it's own target. Perhaps it would burn up a lot of it's fuel on the SLM phase and reduce it's endurance to lower levels.