Hi.

Since the pre-existing thread for Breakers is focussed on the General War-era Alpha Octant, I'm going to outline the ideas I had for using the Breaker concept in the Omega Octant and the Lesser Magellanic Cloud - in both cases, for specific ships, and against the same visitors from M31...

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Maghadim Liberation-class Breaker

When the Baduvai Imperium and Eneen Protectorates fell to the Andromedans in Y157, the Maghadim Hives became the last bastion for the Triple Pact allies in the Lesser Magellanic Cloud, shielded from Andromedan onslaughts by the Core radiation shell (or so it seemed at the time).

It was clear that despite the success of the combined assault on the first Desecrator Starbase in Y154, the Invaders had a second starbase acting as their logistical node. Preparations were soon made to locate - and destroy - this new Andromedan logistical hub. However, from the experience gained in the firsrt Assault, it was clear that the Triple Pact needed a more effective means of engaging the Desecrator, and the inevitable Andromedan fleet presence on site.

Since the Baduvai and Eneen fleet assets were still in the process of recovering their strength, the Northern Maghadim captal starbase took the initiative in constructing a vessel capable of surviving the devastating barrage that Andromedan ships could inflict for longer than current ship types were capable of, as well as focussing more firepower on the Desecrator's facing PA panels.

The result was the conversion of the Battlecruiser Liberation to a siege breaker, with heavier shielding and more heavy weapons. It was believed that the VRF of the ship, and the pre-existing resilience of the BC hull, would make this ship ideal for engaging the Starbase. But given its ponderousness in combat, it required a significant escort from existing fleet assets - and its inferior strategic speed made it likely that its crew would have a one-way trip to the battle.

And so it was to prove in Y163, as a major allied fleet burst out of the Core and descended upon the second Desecrator. Communications errors kept the three races' fleets from co-ordinating effectively, which left the Maghadim task force to engage the starbase without support. The Liberation managed to close on its intended target, scoring significant damage on the second Desecrator. However, a successful dispacement by a closing Intruder whisked the vessel out of formation, and into the maw of a concentrated alpha strike by an Infestor, an Intruder and several Cobra satellite ships. After the Maghadim fleet was beaten off, the Eneen and Baduvai fleets were destroyed in detail - and what few survivors fled to the Fringe, to seek out any friendly ships they coud link up with.

While the mission had failed to destroy the starbase, it had crippled it. However, a third Desecrator was already operational, and took over as the hub of Andromedan oeprations in the Cloud. For reasons which remain unclear, the Invaders did not repair the second Desecrator until Y200, when it was used as a shipyard for the Devastator battleship - but that task would be disrupted during Operation Unity, as the Galactic and Magellanic allies finished the base off one and for all in Y202, completing the legacy of the Liberation.

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Maesron Resolution-class Breaker

When the Andromedan onslaught upon he Omega races fell away in Y202, thanks to Operation Unity's success, the Maesron Alliance revived efforts to organise Operation Concerted Strike. This was a plan to gather a massive allied force and invest the Ryn Nebula - once the hub of Andromedan operations in the octant, now their last remaining stronghold in Omega - and finish off the Invaders once and for all.

However, in order to establish a proper beach-head, the serious problem of breaching the Ryn Nebula's outer Wall (which was as hazardous as the shells surrounding the WYN Cluster and the LMC's Core) became one which urgently needed to be solved. This had been highlighted during the Invasions, when a previous attempt by the Maesrons to penetrate the Nebula suffered due to the adverse effects of crossing the Wall.

At the main shipyard over the Tazol homeworld, Alliance scientists and engineers, with assistance from a team sent by the FRA, worked to adapt the Maesron Dreadnought into a new design, loading up on Tachyon Missiles (vital in keeping any patrolling Andromedans at bay long enough for the radiation effects to wear off) and direct-fire weapons, as well as boosting the craft's shielding (to better withstand the crossing, and protect the ship while it recovered).

The first such ship, the MAS Resolution, sailed from the Tazol shipyard in June Y203, and plans were immediately laid to incorporate it into the operation to breach the Wall. Two more such ships were converted, each used as the speartip of an allied incursion.

These craft proved their worth in Y204, as the Operation finally began - driving off the local patrols and defending the entry points while the remaining fleet assets made the crossing (and recovered afterwards). Two were lost during the campaign, but the Resolution itself earned further glory in combat against the Andromedan battle station, contributing to its eventual destruction.

It is known that the Trobrin attempted to convert one DSN into a breaker - the TEV Destiny - as despite their resistance to radiaton, their vessels were no better off when faced with the Wall than any other race - which led the charge for the Empire's part of the Expedition.

Most other races deemed the craft as not worth the expense - most of the Omega races' economies had been shattered by the Invasions - and it is at present unclear whether the class was further developed during the Seventh or Eighth Cycles.

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Gary

By Peter David Boddy (Pdboddy) on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 08:18 pm: Edit

Absolutely brilliant!

I think the same history idea might be used for the Alpha-octant races. Designed originally for use in the General War, mothballed, and then dragged out during the Andromedan Invasion. Perfect for smashing their logistical network.

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 08:20 pm: Edit

Ah, the cookies are cut again. sigh.

By Peter David Boddy (Pdboddy) on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 08:49 pm: Edit

Er?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 06:03 am: Edit

For the record Glenn, I don't much care for the idea of using Breakers in Alpha - and even here they would be one-offs (or three-offs, in the case of the Maesrons).


Gary

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 10:44 am: Edit

Pdboddy, "Cookie Cutterism" is a term in SFB where if one race gets a certain ship class or type (ie HDW, maulers) all of the other races should get it allow "balance" of two seperate races fighting each other in an independant campaign.

In the Omega Octant, it's much harder to do/explain things like that as you have many (23+) races which very different technologies.

Late War (ie Y190+) you have:
1) the Maesrons/FRA (mammals)
2) Hivers (nothing bigger than SC-4)
3) Alunda (organic ships/whales)
4) Branthadon (cybernetic Dragons) but they are getting purged by #3 above during this era.
5) Trobin (silicon based life)
6) I could go on

The fact is the Andromedan Invasion really hasn't been done much for Omega (they don't really even have General War-era ships, War Crusier/War Destroyers, yet). Just a few notes in Omega 3 or 4 History section.

And it took 2 (IIRC) assaults upon the RYN Cluster to get the Andromedan BATS (only a BATS, not a SB).

By Peter David Boddy (Pdboddy) on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 10:56 am: Edit

Ah, so I see. How is it cookie cutterish if the Alpha breakers were suggested first? I suppose using the Andromedans as the reason for breakers would be though. But not a huge stretch of the imagination: The Andromedans invaded the SMC and the Milky Way. Once a glaring weakness of the Andromedans was discovered (their logistics network of bases), minds all over the galaxy would be trying to figure out the best way to destroy the bases.

Alexander Graham Bell beat Elisha Gray to the patent office by hours to secure patents for the telephone, and though Antonio Meucci actually invented the telephone first, he was too poor to secure a patent, and died while in the midst of suing Bell. Great minds think alike, right?

It isn't beyond reason to think that some of the different races considered, designed and built ships based on the Breaker idea. You're always going to get those "what ifs".

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 05:20 pm: Edit

Peter, that is ok, but that isn't Cookie-cutterism IMO. An example can be found in Module R:6 were you have the Heavy War destroyers. They were an invention by SVC that he thought every race should have. They got them, but the ship had very similar abilities, unlike how these things develop in rl. (same number of optional systems + 2 fighters for added firepower) That one or two races could have built them, sure, but all? And so identical?
For SVC it was a quick and simple way to get something new. But sometimes that is perhaps not so good way to go.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 05:35 pm: Edit

Carl,

Actually, the Tholians never got a Heavy War Destroyer. And as a Tholian player, I'm glad they didn't. The Tholians are under very different constraints from other races and this should be reflected in what ships they do and don't have. This is also, by the way, why I have argued in ... that other topic ... that the Tholians shouldn't get a Breaker, even though I like the concept for the major races. It doesn't really "fit" the Tholians well.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 03:42 pm: Edit

Scott,


According to the fluff in Omega 2 and 3 (not in 4, sadly - well, except for the info on the Ryn trying to hold off the Andros in the Y180s) only the Maesrons and FRA had hot warp engines or X-tech until well into the Sixth Cycle - and even then the first war classes only showed up in the late Y180s (and used to defeat the Vulpa).

And even then, the spread of these examples of tech were relatively patchy at best durign the Invasions (as even those factions that did acquite samples of the new tech had relatively few resources left to take advantage of them).

The real growth of more 'modern' ships across the Octant takes place in the Seventh Cycle, after the Andromedans had already been defeated - an era known as the Maesron Renaissance. And given that issues such as a possible Xorkaelian presence in Omega, or the question of just when the Alpha and Omega races make official contact, have yet to be resolved, we won't see much post-Y204 in Omega until the Alpha X2 era is fleshed out.


So do you guys think that the Maesron DN, Trobrin DSN and Maghadim BC are good choices as base hulls for these proposed conversions? And do you think the fluff fits?


Gary

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 08:22 am: Edit

Alan, yeah, that is how it should be done; ship design in sfb that is. State the need, look at the resources available, traditions in design, etc, etc. IOW try emulate real world developments. There are REASONS not every navy have nuclear carriers!

By Robert Gamble (Rgamble) on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 11:13 am: Edit

I really know almost nothing about the Magellanic and Omega supplements (since I don't have any yet), but one of the things that has always bothered me about SFB is the 'cookie cutter' concept. Actually, I shouldn't say it's always bothered me.. When I first got the Basic and Advanced sets (well, actually their equivalents back in Commander's Edition days), I was thrilled that there were distinct differences in the ship classes between races.

But then, expansions like R6 hit. While I'm in the process of getting all the expansions currently, some of them do draw some groans. R11 was the most recent example. Every race gets specialized Division Control Ships, every race gets Fast War Cruisers, etc. Even better, most appear within a couple of years of each other. You can use the argument, "Well, they saw how well they worked for everyone else" but in the case of the Fast War Cruisers, not many of them actually did what they were expected to do.

Don't get me wrong, there are definitely different flavors to each race, some more than others, and often just because of their weaponry/systems, but as time has gone on, it seems like most of the supplements work on homogenizing the empires rather than differentiating them.

I also question the sheer number of variants and the real ability of an empire to come up with the number of variants in a war. I mean, wars definitely increase creativity, but I find it hard to believe the sheer number of classes/variants that the Alpha Octant has, and that in the middle of a war, every race decides to copy everyone else's classes.

Anyhow, this is my long winded ramble of why I hope Omega and the Magellanics DON'T follow this route. Instead of, for instance, one race developing PFs and then every other race also developing PFs, I'd like to see the paradigm of "Countering" rather than "Copying". An example in the Alpha Octant is "MW-Drones" and "Plasma Shotguns" in dealing with fighters. Except I would have liked to see some races not develop fighters and rely exclusively on these defenses which wouldn't be available to other races with fighters. So for instance, the Gorn wouldn't even have 'borrowed' fighters from the Federation but instead would have focused their efforts on some fighter defense ships with Plasma D racks, phasers and perhaps even an upgraded ADD designed to do more damage to fighters.

Anyhow, the upshot is, I will pretty shortly be picking up the Magellanic and Omega supplements, and hope the various races remain as differentiated as they currently sound.