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	Archive through July 03, 2013	25		07/03 08:40pm

Or we can just say that they have similar engines to alpha 1x ships, use the same F&E rules, and keep things simple. That's got my vote anyway.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, July 03, 2013 - 09:10 pm: Edit

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I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here.

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By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 04:46 pm: Edit

I was talking about this kind of idea with a friend off the BBS, and he suggested that one option might be to give a Mæsron X-ship smaller warp engines than a Fed CX, but have (part of) the difference in power made up by adding in more reactors.


For example, the unrefitted Fed CA has 30 warp, 4 impulse and 4 batteries. The current "middle years" Mæsron CA has the same overall total (34+4), but instead has 26 warp, 4 impulse, 4 APRs, and 4 batteries.

So, if a similar setup was used here, a Mæsron CX would have less than 40 warp engine boxes (maybe 36, the same as a Fed CF?), but might have more reactors in the hull proper than what you see on the Vincennes-class. Not necessarily enough reactors to get the same overall total, but more than the non-X hull has at present.


If the "volatile X-warp" idea was not viable (though I'm not in a hurry to give it up just yet), could something like this be a way to give a Mæsron X-ship a distinct power signature?

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 05:20 pm: Edit

It would certainly do that, as long as you don't mind not having the advanced movement capabilities of an X-ship (both in SFB and F&E).

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 05:30 pm: Edit

Well, even if it had 18-box warp nacelles, that (in the Alpha Octant) would be enough to allow a CF to go seven hexes operationally.

I don't recall if a fast ship is still lower than a first-gen X-ship in F&E, in terms of its overall movement options in that scale.

But even if the degree of advantage over a non-X Omega ship wouldn't be as great as that between X and non-X ships back in Alpha, it might still be noticeable enough on a campaign map.


I suppose if this setup was part of the template given to other empires, it might bring the FRA "down" to the level of their neighbours.

The "middle years" CLA and BC have 14-box warp nacelles; making them slower tactically than a Fed CA (or an FRA CL, for that matter), but still faster than the CAs of most of their Omega neighbours.

If an FRA X-ship was given the same 18-box nacelles as this proposal's Mæsron CA, it would not have any particular advantage; unless some local quirk were to allow them to, say, get 19-box engines instead. (I'm not sure if I like that idea.)

But in any case, it would oblige an FRA CX to continue relying more heavily on its AWRs to arm photons than a Vincennes-class CX is required to.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 05:49 pm: Edit

So, based on the options you listed over here for Alpha X-ships, do you think that an Omega X-ship (one with 36 warp rather than 40 tactically, under the above proposal) might be able to get at least one or two of those options; or would you say that they would have to "only" move as an Alpha fast ship instead?

(I suppose that's a hard question to answer when we still don't know what non-X Omega ships can do in F&E; but some of these issues might still be worth considering for any sort of campaign involving Omega X-ships.)

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 06:23 pm: Edit

I don't know.

Honestly, just give them 2x19 or 3x13 for warp engines if you want some variance, without the afterburners or weirdness. Omega units are already weird enough without throwing in yet even more wackiness.

Sure, some are just different sorts of races that are not that dissimilar from alpha quadrant.

But others... are very different.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 06:23 pm: Edit

How well do you know F&E?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 06:54 pm: Edit

As I mentioned in the other thread, I don't have my copy of the 2000 ruleset here in this country with me, and I have yet to get a hold of the 2010 update. (It is on the list of things to get eventually.) The only F&E rulebook I have to hand right now is the one for ISC War.


I do think that it's probably not worth worrying too much about Alunda "Sig-Tech", or other such oddities, before working out what first-generation X-tech will look like for those "normal" Omega empires liable to gain access to the technology.

But then, most of the really "out there" empires in Omega are either dead or otherwise out of the picture by the time X-tech becomes a factor.

And of those that remain, some of their differences don't necessarily show up on the SSDs. For example, the Loriyill might have an "exotic" tech tree, but their PFs still use the same "volatile warp" engine rules as pubblished in Module Omega 5. I don't see any reason not to treat their would-be adoption of the Mæsron X-template (whatever that may end up being) any differently.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 11:10 pm: Edit

I was checking Module X1R (to go over some of the partial X-refit rules), and noted that at least two ships in there already have the kind of less-warp-more-reactors dynamic in play: the Federation and ISC NCAs.

In the Fed case, that ship has 38 warp boxes and four warp reactors, which would give it a slightly different set of options relative to the Vincennes-class CX. While the ISC NAX is an X-tech upgrade of the NCA/NCS "system cruisers", themselves hastily converted out of CLs or CSs out in the semi-isolated cantonments of Pacification bases that survivied the first wave of Andromedan attacks.

In F&E terms, it would seem that the Fed NAX may act no differently than a CX, though it is stated in the R-section that the ship had a reduced operating range that made it unsuitable for Operation Unity. (Perhaps we'll find out for sure in Tactical Operations?)

But on the other hand, we won't know what movement rules the ISC NAX (or, indeed, the NCA/NCS it is based on) will have until Andromedan War is published. Given the limitations of that hull type, it may not even be able to go speed-7, let along enjoy the benefits otherwise afforded to an Alpha Octant X-ship.


So, if the Mæsron standard for X-technology was tilted towards slightly weaker X-warp drives (with ship-mounted reactors obliged to pick up the slack), there is a precedent for this setup in SFB that can be compared with when working things up here.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, July 08, 2013 - 10:39 am: Edit

So, to round up the options listed so far:

1) Give a Mæsron CX the same 40-box warp engines as the Fed CX; this would give the ship a slightly higher power output than the CX (in quantity, if not in quality, since it would have 4 APRs rather than 2 AWRs). No change to the tactical and strategic movement options afforded an Alpha X-ship.

2) Give that ship a "volatile X-warp" system, that allowed a temporary boost in warp output in exchange for a "cool-down" turn and an increased risk of damage when using afterburners. The resulting ship may risk missing out on some (or all) of an Alpha X-ship's tactical or strategic movement options.

3) Give that ship the same 36-box engines as the Fed CF, but make up the balance in power curve (either partially or fully) with more APRs. Ship may gain F trait, but may not gain some (or all) of an Alpha X-ship's tactical or strategic movement options.

4) Give that ship the same 38-box warp engines as the Fed NAX; in which case the four APRs already on the base hull would produce the same overall power output (in quantity, if not in quality). No change to the tactical and strategic movement options afforded an Alpha X-ship.


If anyone has a preference from the four options listed above, or might have a fifth (or sixth, or...) option to consider, please feel free to add it to the list.


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There was one other topic that might be worth considering someday: at what point, if ever, would second-generation X-technology become available in the Omega Octant?

The current timeline (which runs through the end of the Seventh Cycle in Y221) is silent on the matter. It's not yet known if Bruce Graw intended the Eighth Cycle timeline to include the jump to X2, or even if that file still exists at this point. (Had it not been lost in Bruce's earlier computer crash, it might have been a casualty of SPP's more recent calamity.)

But, by the time the Sakharov made contact in Y214, the Star Fleet officers aboard would, if they so chose, be able to inform the FRA and Mæsrons (the Aurorans become autonomous members of the Alliance in Y209) of the onset of X2 technology in Y205 over in the Alpha Octant. They may also be in a position to warn the locals about the threat from the Xorkaelians coming across from the far side of the Milky Way. (Sakharov set out from the LMC for Omega in Y212. Depending on how long it took for news of this event to travel from the Federation out to the Lesser Magellanic Cloud, its officers and crew may have already been aware of the Xorkaelian assault on Alpha in Y210.)

That's not to say they would be in a position to tell the Aurorans and Mæsrons how X2 (as the Alpha powers understand it) actually works, or that the technology would be directly compatible even if they could. But, it would certainly get some wheels spinning, in terms of sparking a fresh wave of research and development aimed at figuring out how to make their own parallel advancement into the X2 era.

So, even if this resulted in a leap forward that may only come to fruition in the Eighth Cycle (unless the tail end of the Seventh Cycle timeline is adjusted to allow X2 to emerge in that time period), it could still act as a potential opening should we ever get to the point when both Module X2 and the rules governing first-generation Omega X-ships are published.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, February 07, 2014 - 04:23 am: Edit

Another note for later on:

I noticed that, aside from the Fed and ISC NAXs (and the Fed NASX), there are other MC 1 X-ships with less than the "standard" 40 warp boxes in both Module X1 and X1R, such as the Romulan KEX and the Lyran BCX (both of which have 36 warp boxes available).

Whle those ships are more of an exception than a rule in the Alpha Octant (particularly in the cas of the ISC NAX), perhaps their existence might act as useful precedents if/when the time comes to allocate first-generation X-tech to those Omega empires with the means and opportunity to use it.

Which may not be too different from how, even with the spread of "volatile warp" technology, the resulting Omega PFs varied in the number of warp engine boxes they possessed. (The Mæsron gunboat has 12 warp boxes, the Trobrin PF onlv 10, the Drex PFL 11, and so on.)

By Shawn Hantke (Shantke) on Friday, February 07, 2014 - 11:55 am: Edit

Gary could you shoot me an email? I have some off BBS topics I would like to discuss, thanks. shawnhantke@rushmore.com

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, February 07, 2014 - 01:30 pm: Edit

Email sent.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, January 15, 2016 - 02:53 pm: Edit

I've been thinking more lately about how one might organize a relatively coherent proposal for handling the Mæsron "X-template", in a way which would fit the historical guidelines, allow for "something different", yet still result in reasonably competitive first-generation X-ships.

Of course, my goal with this post is not to distract any attention away from more pressing topics. This is strictly for future consideration, should the time be ripe for Omega X-tech someday.

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Historically, the relevant Y198 entry in the Omega timeline states that the first Mæsron X-cruiser "is not as highly advanced as those in the Alpha Octant Empires." This can be read a number of ways, but I might choose to read it as potentially meaning that it wasn't quite as advanced - allowing the bulk of pre-existing X-ship rules to apply, but noting specific details and exceptions as and when required.


For example, one way to portray this could be to limit the number of warp engine boxes which Mæsron X-ships would possess. As suggested further up the thread, the CAX could have 2 19-box warp engines to produce a total of 38 warp (the same as the overall engine output of the Federation NAX). Other empires' X-ships could have similar limitations, which may be affected by their respective MC rates and the number of warp engines they typically operate with.

To continue the Mæsron example, their CLX could have two 14-box engines; their DDX a pair of 11-box engines; while their FFX (were they to bother building one) might have two 7-box engines.

There could be occasional exceptions to this rule. Any ships with a "warp pack" - akin to that on the Federation CX - may not necessarily count the pack's warp boxes towards this limit. Say, if the Vulpa Confederacy were to acquire Mæsron X-tech and use it to upgrade the VBR to a "VRX"; the resulting ship would have the same 11-box L and R engines proposed for the Mæsron DDX, but retain the 2-box centre warp engine to produce a higher-than-average overall warp output.

(One non-X idea I had was for the Mæsrons to develop a command cruiser which would adopt the same two-box center warp engine later seen on the Mæsron FFN or Vulpa VBR. So, a potential CCX would still have the 19-box L and R engines of the proposed CAX, but retain the C warp engines to reach a total of 40 warp power.)

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Aside from warp engines, one area I was looking at was with the concept of X-aegis.

While the Drex were early adopters of limited Aegis, other empires did not acquire this system until Y194 - and even then, not every active Omega Octant empire made use of it. While no Omega empire, not even the Drex, presently has access to full Aegis.

With only a relatively short turnaround between the Mæsron adoption of limited Aegis and the production of their first X-cruiser, the late introduction of gunboat technology (which itself matured during this time period), and the relative lack of Size Class 5 offensive units among the Andromedan and Souldra invaders (Andro MWPs notwithstanding), I might suggest that the Mæsrons mot adopt "true" X-Aegis as seen in the Alpha Octant. Their X-ships would still get non-X limited Aegis, but not the ability to target PFs.

Indeed, I might go further and say that only those Omega empires which adopted limited Aegis would gain access to even that form of Aegis on their X-ships. So if the Trobrin or Worb never fielded non-X escorts with limited Aegis, their X-ships would have to go without that system also.

This might have the side-effect of allowing Omega gunboats to have a marginally longer service life, which may help overcome their relatively late entry into service across the octant.

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As for weapons, the Mæsron example would involve wide-angle phasers, tachyon guns, and tachyon missiles.

Perhaps the phasers could follow a similar pattern as Alpha Octant phasers - PW-3s would become PW-1Xs, paired PW-1s would become three PW-1Xs, etc. The ability to rapid-pulse would perhaps depend on the operating empire's adoption of limited Aegis; so the Mæsrons would be able to rapid-pulse their PW-1Xs as pairs of PW-3 shots, but the Worb may not be able to rapid-pulse their AP-1Xs as two AP-3Xs (as they may not have the Aegis system needed to exploit this option).

My thinking is that X-tachyon guns could be fast-loaded with up to six points of power (akin to the 50% overload one can give an X-photon), but that the weapon range would be limited to 15 hexes (again, matching X-photons, X-PPDs, etc.)

X-Tachyon Missiles would involve working out what an X-rack would look like, and what the "base" X-missile would possess. As noted in an earlier post, an X-rack could combine features of the five TM racks listed in (OFD1.2). While the X-missiles themselves might boost their initial stats - say, make them maximum size-12, propulsion-32, armor-12, explosion-12, endurance-5 turns, and so forth.

While some Omega weapon rules hint at X-tech options (Drex hypercannon firing arcs, Vari PST splitting options, etc), each weapon type would have its own path to advanced technology that could be explored as and when those empires' X-ships were looked at. While those weapons which were brought over from Alpha, as used by the FRA and Jindarians, could be treated the same as their Alpha Octant counterparts for simplicity's sake. (Which might make it easier to work out X-upgrades to Auroran light and heavy photons, if they followed equivalent fast-load limits to those for regular-sized X-photons.)

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Other "typical" X-systems may still be on the table - X-batteries, shield upgrades, increased crew unit and Marine numbers, etc. Although it might make for an interesting historical quirk to have the prototype Mæsron X-cruiser initially struggle with its X-batteries, and operate for its first few months of service under (XR1.23) from Module X1R. (Such kinks would presumably be ironed out by the time the Mæsrons start shipping samples of X-technology to other Omega powers.)

That said, I would draw a clear line between X- and non-X ships, by barring the latter from receiving XP-refits (such as X-batteries), advanced shuttles (should Omega X-ships be given them), or any X-weapon upgrades (say, if the Trobrin were given a sabot option for their X-ships' implosion torpedoes). Given the severe economic conditions most Omega empires were in both during and after the Invasions era, it might make more sense for the surviving powers to use what few XTPs they have on hand to field more X-ships, rather than risk diluting them through a raft of partial-X upgrades.

So far as size limitations go, one could follow similar guidelines to Alpha X1-tech: no Size Class 2 X-ships, no X-fighters (except perhaps for Hiver "Barb-Xs"), no X-PFs (except perhaps for Hiver "DDXs"), etc. Where that would leave some of the larger SC 3 ships in Omega, such as the Vari CC or Worb CA, might be an interesting question to answer later on.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, January 15, 2016 - 02:54 pm: Edit

So, how might such a set of options work?

For both historical and technical reasons, it may be best to try and work out what the Mæsron CAX itself would look like. Once that ship was ironed out, one could then flesh out Mæsron X-squadrons, and then use this template as the basis for other Omega empires' X-conversions.

Working off of the Mæsron CA SSD in Module Omega 1, one could install 19-box L and R warp engines; increase the shields to 40-32-32-26-32-32; upgrade the batteries to X-batteries; replace the PW-3s with PW-1Xs; fit three PW-1xs in each of the paired PW-1 mounts on the "floating" aft platform; place a pair of TX-racks (whatever they would be); install the limited Aegis system; increase the crew unit and Marine numbers in the typical X-ship fashion; improve the Command Rating to 8; upgrade the four standard admin shuttles to advanced admin shuttles; mark the SSD as that for a first-generation Omega X-ship; and so on and so forth.

The resulting ship would have 38 warp, 4 impulse, 4 APR, and 12 (4x3) points of battery power. This would compare more or less evenly to a Fed NAX's power output (the NAX has AWRs instead of APRs, but the Mæsron doesn't need warp power to arm its heavy weapons), but be outmatched by the Fed CX's 42 warp, 4 impulse, 2 AWR, and 15 (5x3) points of battery power. Weapons-wise, the CAX would have 12 PW-1s (with rapid-pulse capability tied to the limited Aegis system), 4 X-TGs, and 2 TM-X racks - plus any advanced admins armed as suicide shuttles.

I'm not sure what the BPV would come to, but the resulting ship would make for an interesting combatant. It would enjoy a much higher degree of flexibility with its tachyon gun arming options, and possess a stronger offensive punch in the FA arc. But it would still have limited phaser coverage to the sides and aft, as its weapon arcs would be no better than those on the non-X CA. And it would have a relatively weak #4 shield, which is something most Alpha Octant X-cruisers avoid.

This may be enough to help deal with the Andromedan and Souldra threats it would be initially designed to confront. But it might lead to some unexpected challenges once it starts running into other Omega X-cruisers (and "volatile warp" gunboats) as the Seventh Cycle progresses. And there may be some interesting points of comparison to be made once the GSX Sakharov shows up in the mid-to-late Y210s.

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If the proposed CAX is still problematic, or if there isn't enough of a difference to mark it relative to its Alpha Octant counterparts, that's more than fair enough.

Fortunately, there is enough inherent diversity among the "metal-hull" empires of Omega to ensure that even this proposed template may produce a raft of distinct X-ship designs as the technology spreads across the octant - as was seen in Module Omega 5 for "volatile warp" gunboats.

So, is there anything of worth in this Omega X-proposal, or is there a better way to introduce first-generation advanced technology to this corner of the Milky Way?

By Jay gustafson (Jay13) on Monday, April 22, 2019 - 04:57 pm: Edit

A modest shield upgrade all shields 30

By Jay Gustason (Jay20) on Tuesday, March 01, 2022 - 11:00 pm: Edit

Increase in damage of particle beams