Archive through January 05, 2007
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: The Magellanic Cloud:
Magellanic Proposals:
Archive through January 05, 2007
Hi!
Now that we have the setting laid out in C5, we could have a look at where a follow-on Magellanic supplement could go.
For a start, of the existing Magellanic Powers only the Maghadim have little in the way of Y-series starships (since by the time the others ran into them they were past that stage) so a few Early Years variants could be coaxed out for civil wars, ahistorical matchups (maybe the Jindarians and/or Chomak wandered into the Core now and then...) and smashing that as-yet-unnamed race which once shared the Core region with the Maghadim.
Also, the Uthiki could possibly recieve a Y-series ship or two, to represent the vessels which held off early Yrol raids and the first Baduvai scouts.
In terms of new races, the Chomak and Yrol lie waiting to be uncovered - as does the as-yet-unnamed Core race.
That Core race would presumably not get very far out of the EY period - maybe one or two modern ships around to defend their homeworld and possibly make a run for it to the Fringe...
The three Powers could possibly do with an equivalent of the Alpha ships in Module R8, making use of refitted older ships to guard Ena and Baduvai as well as deal with pirate raids.
So that leaves us with 3 new races (one not needing Y-era ships - unless you want to fight civil wars set thousands of years ago! - another not needing many modern ships before they get stomped and a third with not too many ship classes swimming around in that nebula of theirs), a few older ships for an existing race and the odd variant or two for the others.
Seem reasonable?
Gary
I just picked up C5 The Magellanic Cloud. For those who don’t have this module I would recommend getting it.
There are five races covered. One, the Maghadim, is an insectoid race. This race is native to the radiation core of the LMC. Y183 the Andromedans breach the radial shell and invade the core in Y183. Only one Maghadim hive queen escapes. I would expect the Maghadim would produce another hive queen quickly.
The Seltorians, in module C3, are also insectoid race. A hive ship arrived in the Alpha sector and then made contact with the Klingons Y182. A Seltorian hive ship may have visited the Magellanic Cloud.
Proposal: That hive ship arrived around Y188 and made contact with the second Maghadim hive queen. Instead of trying to devour each other they entered into a treaty. The Maghadim gave the Seltorians fighter technology (not sure what other weapons technology would be appropriate) in exchange for using the hive ship to build various SC4 ships. Between Y189 and Y199 both races build up their fleets.
Y200 the Maghadim-Seltorian Union (MSU) begin raid and attacks against Andromedan forces. MSU forces start fighting their way toward the right flank of route two. Jumokian pirates have been conducting long range passive scans of the galactic forces movement up the last leg of route two and the initial assaults against the Andromedan defenders. They sell this information too the MSU. The Seltorians recognize the Tholian energy signatures.
Does the MSU fleet attack the galactic forces from their right flank?
Will the Andromedan forces attack both groups and if they succeed pursue the galactic ships back down route two or use the tactical victory to buy time and complete the Devastator BB.
There are a number of interesting dynamics for an alternate history campaign. I am a new player so I don’t think I have enough experience to develop this. So I am just posting this for comments.
Seltorian Queens have the intelligence of a bright sheepdog, but the Sages might be willing to deal.
Principle problem is why the Seltorians would abandon their quest for Tholians, and why they would decide they need fighters in the absence of Tholians with fighters giving them any trouble. Does not seem worth their time to get involved in someone else's war that does not help them accomplish their primary task.
Further, fighter technology is of no value to the Seltorians without someone to provide pilots (the Klingons provide the pilots for Seltorian carriers in our Galaxy).
The only background I can see that even begins to fit is that the Andromedans attacked and destroyed the Hive Ship, but the Seltorians managed to evacuate their queen before the ship went down. Contact follows, and the simple need to survive forces the Seltorians into an Alliance, but it would be Maghadim/Jumokian Asteroid shipyards that are doing the building. Seltorians may breed faster than Maghadims, and come to be a significant source of crew.
This is NOT me trying to shut down this line, it is just me noting what I think the actual interaction may be. Your mileage may vary of course.
Yes, but with the Seltorian "advanced construction techniques" from the Tholian Will, they could start making their own shipyards relatively quickly and then become a force to be reckoned with. The Seltorians in the Alpha Quadrant never needed to build a separate shipyard because they had their Hive Ship and were adjacent to the Tholians they wanted.
"Homeless" Seltorians that did not have a chance to explore the new galaxy their ship was destroyed in may decide that whatever attacked them was allied with the Tholians (Why else would they have been attacked without any provocation?) and seek to hide and build a shipyard ASAP so as to find out where the Tholians are and continue their crusade. Only after they built up and started to find and talk to the other races would they realize what had happened to their original Hiveship. After that, whether or not they try to stay and help out or leave on their crusade is something else.
SVC and SPP,
Thanks for the responses. I reread (R15) in C3. I had forgotten Seltorians didn't and don't operate fighters. The hive ship would have been lighted armed upon arriving in the LMC ((R15.13). The hive ship would be an easy target for the Andromedans.
In the background information it indicates: the Seltorians were never innovators and basicly used whatever weapons the Tholians provided; they never developed new ship designs or technology.
SPP your comments: evacuating the queen; making contact; making a deal to survive; building ships in an asteroid shipyard makes a lot of sense. I would think that the Seltorians would also provide crew for Magdahim warships.
I think the year of arrival needs to be later otherwise the Andromedan forces would make the escape of the queen unlikely. It would need to be just after the Andromedans start drawing down their forces, which go to the Milky Way. Maybe 195-196.
Would the Seltorians be able to manufactor any of their own ships (assuming the Magdahim allowed) in an asteroid shipyard? My though is as part of the "agreement" the Seltorians build a nest ship.
Would any Magellanic technology be allowed (only ones that might be compatible/fit are the charged particle accelerator and the Baduvai Outrider PFs)?
Seltorians got fighters and carriers in R6.
Michael Lui:
You are confusing two capabilities.
No one in Federation and Empire builds a shipyard in a short period of time without a Starbase to start with. No one builds a starbase to start with unless they have an operational empire.
Without a Hive Ship (or a Nest Ship) and access to an economy, the Seltorians would be a long time (years, more likely decades) getting to the point where they could start constructing ships again.
Note that even with a Hive Ship or Nest Ship the largest ships they could build were Cruiser Hulls (they made a DNL in our Galaxy, but it was not with a true DN/BCH hull). Take away the Hive Ship/Nest Ship, and the Seltorians pretty much become nothing in short order, i.e., they lose their entire industrial base.
Joseph R. Carlson:
I have strong doubts that the Magellanics would provide the economics to build a Nest Ship, much less a Hive Ship, during the period of the Andromedan Conquest. Way too many resources being diverted to something that cannot fight offensively effectively, and is harder to conceal than an asteroid shipyard.
Besides, would you really trust the Seltorians to not just "leave" once they have built their new Hive Ship?
In re; SVC Comment:
And the ship description for the Seltorian CVS in Module R6 very specifically states that the Seltorians had to use Klingon pilots for the fighters, so despite the fact that the Seltorians operated carriers, they did so with "borrowed pilots".
The core problem I have is that the Seltorians have a mission and they have that mission, at least their trail, in their sites.
Unless they were about to break down I don't think they'd stop for anything. (Take notes and wave out the window as they go by, perhaps.)
What year would this contact take place?
Recall that during the time frame of the 312th arriving, the Magellanic Powers are fighting cheek to jowl inside the radiation zone of the Core, doing raids on Andromedan bases outside. Or there's the nascent guerilla war with warships out in the fringe.
If it's after the fall of the Core, they're finding warships with maintenance issues fighting a guerilla action with hidden asteroid bases.
If it's contacting the guerillas, how do you convince them to talk, rather than disengage and report that something new and wierd has shown up?
It would take an interesting set of circumstances to get the Selts in contact with any of the Magellanic powers.
If I were rescuing Seltorians, the price I'd charge would be technology to make Shield Crackers and Web Breakerss, because Shield Crackers ignore VRF and fire before DF weapons. The fact that they have their own integrated capacitor and hold for free is a bonus.
It's a good thing that Old Galaxy weapons don't tech slosh. 
Loren Knight:
The "mission" aspect I addressed already.
Beyond that, even with a "mission" it is not impossible that a Hive or Nest ship expedition was sent to the Magellanic Cloud, per se. One would have to take a look at the relative locations of the Tholian Home Galaxy and determine if it would be reasonable to send an expedition there in the first place.
Even so, it could be that the Seltorians that arrived outside the Holdfast had a "more determined leadership" than that of other Seltorian groups, and perhaps the Seltorian expedition that arrived in Magellanic Space was just not the interested in continuing to look for Tholians.
Maybe their leadership just decides to set up housekeeping and conquer the Cloud in their own right.
Ken Burnside:
While you were at some pains in your creation of the Cloud to say that no Tholians or Seltorians ever went through there, a back ground could be constructed that saw a Tholian "Refugee Column" (civilian transports escorted by the Battlestar . . . er . . . I mean remnants of 206th Battle Squadron pass through the Magellanic Cloud, sowing havoc in its passage. They in turn being followed by a Cylon Ba . . . er . . . Seltorian Hive or Nest Ship. The whole incident a series of roughly linked scenarios. [Tholians attacking something Magellanic looking for supplies, or being attacked by Magellanics in retaliation or simply because they are trespassing), Seltorians attacking something Magellanic perhaps because they think the Magellanics are negotiating with the Tholians, or being attacked by Magellanics), and all occuring 100 years before the Andromedans arrive (or 50 years, or what have you)].
There is nothing that requires a Tholian refugee column to arrive in Magellanic Space before, at the same time as, or after they arrived in our Galaxy, and nothing to say that a Seltorian pursuing force might not have been more closely following such a refugee column rather than being almost 100 years behind.
Well, if you are going to produce such a thing please keep me up to date if it is to be real history as I've pretty well mapped out expiditions to the MWG group (which were limited due to its extreme distance).
I'll have to check again of galactic possitioning but IIRC it is fairly out of the way to stop and the LMC. Again, I'll double check on the data I have (real astrological data).
Loren Knight:
There is a sad fact that somethings need to be kept vague rather than nailed down.
Your "Tholian History" is pretty much going to be the best knowledge The Holdfast had, as opposed to what actually happened after The Will collapsed. Do not try to write an all inclusive background that denies all hope of further expansion. The Holdfast may believe that the Seltorians have exterminated all Tholian presence in The Home Galaxy, but maybe they are wrong, maybe there is still a Tholian Presence there that allows some group to run a Tholian Pirate operation in The Home Galaxy (no, I will not go into the details because I do not want to ruin the surprises about Tholians you already have in store for those who buy the product). But you do need to be thinking about the fact that if you close all doors to Tholians outside the Holdfast, you are limiting the adventure capabilities of those who buy the product.
This is not to say that you absolutely have to define what those things are, but that you should allow opportunity for people to go their own ways.
Do you really, really, really want to define that here is no interaction between the Tholians and the Magellanic Cloud? Or the Omega Sector? Same for the Seltorians.
Before you go further, read (R15.26) in Module R6. In theory we "here in the Alpha Sector) never saw a "Nest Ship", but we know what one looked like and the ship description says (in part):
"There are persistent reports that a Nest Ship arrived at a different point in our Milky Way Galaxy during the period of the General War. Rumors of Seltorians are also heard in the Omega Sector."
The entire background for (R15.26) notes that some Seltorian expeditions "Some expeditions were led by Hive ships, while others were led by the smaller Nest ships. Some expeditions HAD ONE (OR MORE) OF EACH." (capitalization for emphasis, not shouting and is a change to the quoted text which was not in all caps in the book).
While I strongly doubt that multiple Hive/Nest ships would have been sent to the Magellanic Cloud, it is always possible that a larger than normal expedition was sent that way because the data available to the Seltorians (maybe erroneously) indicated that a very strong Tholian force went that way.
In any case, the existing data in (R15.26) says there were a lot of Seltorian expeditions, and there is no particular reason that one could not have been sent to the Magellanic cloud.
In fact, imagining that such an expedition included more than one Hive/Nest ship [as (R15.26) indicates is possible] can get you into a situation where (assuming an arrival during the period of Andromedan Domination) the Andromedans ace one of the (in essence) ship yard ships (the larger of the two if they had one of both), leaving the Seltorians to be a bleeding ulcer in the side of the Andromedan Conquest for a period of time before they finally destroy the other one. (Maybe the period of this campaign coincided with when the Magellanics were mostly confined to the Core Region, and the actual reason for the delay in the Andromedan offensive into the core was their concentration on eliminating the Seltorian infestation.)
But do not try to pin down every possible adventure seed. Leave some things vague so that others can develop their own ideas.
SPP: Well, I sent you that link so you can view the intergalactic geometry and I even proposed a possible why it might happen.
Have you ever known me to want to nail all the doors on anything? But a thing does have to make sense and in that e-mail I did suggest there maigh be a way to make a sensable history. There are probably other ways as well.
Your "Tholian History" is pretty much going to be the best knowledge The Holdfast had, as opposed to what actually happened after The Will collapsed.
Actually there is another factor involved since the Tholians aren't exactly forthcoming with their private data and any captured data isn't going to include everything. The Air Force tapes are of a Federation transmission so the data has to have come to us through the Federation knowledge base.
I said above:
...as I've pretty well mapped out expiditions to the MWG group (which were limited due to its extreme distance).
This was a poor choice of words. What I wanted was to just be as informed as possible but you are right, leaving some vagueness will keep doors open even beyond publication of PDT. While what I wrote doesn't discount anything I think I will need to alter a line in the history to push that door open a bit wider.
I seem to recall SVC saying sometime in the last 8 months or so something to the effect that "the history is never wrong but sometimes not all aspects are revealed".
Or as Harry Truman once said "The only thing new is the history you didn't know."
regards
Stacy
SPP:
I tried very carefully not to mention Tholian or Seltorian incursions into the LMC without specifically precluding them. We also hinted at Bolosco and Iridani ships making it to the LMC as well.
I have no objections to Tholians or Seltorians making it to the LMC at all.
In terms of astrographic data, from the perspective of Sol, M81 and the Lesser Magellanic Cloud are about 130 degrees apart in the sky as seen from Earth. So not implausible from that end.
Ken Burnside:
I would swear I remember reading something that pretty said that historically there was never any interaction between the Magellanics and the Seltorians or Tholians (other than Holdfast Ships that arrived with Operation Unity), but on a fast look, I did not see the reference, but note that (MS1.28) is (I say again, IS) written deliberately vague enough to allow such intrusions.
It's a thing I'm finding I have to be very careful of when relying on my memory, Steve. I'm sure you are involved in much more developement than I and yet I have to be careful of all those ideas that get thrown about, even drafted, filtering into my general SFU memory. You have a sharp mind but with as much stuff that get pushed past your glasses it's a tribute that your head doesn't explode.
Ken,
IIRC, you had also had a small race at the edge of the cloud that, given incomplete translation, could "look" like a Tholian planet.
In this case, if the Seltorians asked "have you seen something that looks like this?", they could be told that there were rumors of something similar "over yonder" and "we'll help you get there as soon as we clear up our bit of trouble."
That would be the Chomak, and yeah, I suppose someone could interpret "Lives in an artificial structure around a stable Red Dwarf star" as being like the Tholians...
The Seltorians can produce new generations quickly. My impression after reading (R15.1A) is the workers are selected for specific tasks and functions. I would expect the Rams, that become Sages, are also selected , but to a lesser degree. Those not selected are culted (recycled?).
The Magdahim could influence (manipulate) the Seltorian selection process by which ships, weapons, and tasks that the Magdahim have the Seltorians do/build/crew. While the difference between one generation and next may be slight over a years worth of generation the change could be significant. The Magellanic Seltorians could be quite different from those in the Alpha sector.
Perhaps a large part of the expedition is lost soon after entering the LMC to Andromedan forces. The queen on the hive ships escapes and these Seltorians make contact with the Magdahim. The nest ship is damaged, disengages, and hides. These Seltorians slowly repair their nest ship. So the LMC could end up with two different groups of Seltorians
General Comment:
The Chomak are going to have to be massively revised based on data Ken supposedly provided to Gary Carney. The economic potential of the number of Dyson Spheres the Chomak were described as operating in the data Gary Carney subsequently submitted was far in excess of the economic data Ken originally provided for the Magellanic Cloud.
Ken had decided in his development of the Cloud that the Chomak would successfully resist the Andromedan Invasion (something we did not bless or accept), and provide, from their impenetrable bastion, the economic proceeds by which the other Magellanic Races were able to conduct their guerrilla war against Andromedan domination.
The problem is that if all this were so, the Andromedans simply NEVER WOULD HAVE ATTACKED OUR GALAXY, much less intruded into both the Omega Sector and the Alpha Sector.
Ken's apparent theory (and I am not saying any of this to be negative, nor implying that Ken said any of this, I am only trying to make what seems a logical progression to me) was that the Andromedans were Nazi Germany, and the Chomak would be England, while our Galaxy would be Russia (the Alpha Sector) and Africa (The Omega Sector).
The problem is that would only make sense if the Andromedans originated in the Magellanic Cloud themselves. The Cloud is (for the Andromedans) an assembly area for operations against our Galaxy and a major logistics node (the link to the Andromedan Galaxy). If the Chomak Community resisted Andromedan Conquest, the Andromedans would NOT be able to ignore them. They would exist as a constant threat to their communications back to their Home Galaxy. Given Ken's developed background that saw the Omega Races successfully destroy all but one of the existing Andromedan Links to their Home Galaxy (the other Desecrators), the Andromedans would not have been able to accept the potential risk to the one remaining Desecrator, and thus would not have been able to intrude into our Galaxy until it (and thus their Line of Communications) was secure and they could afford to leave only "local security forces" in the cloud.
Thus if the Chomak survived, i.e., were able to prevent the Andromedans from violating their space while supporting the insurgency, the Andromedans would have been forced to leave major fleet units to guard against any possible attack on the Desecrator by the Chomak. Which in turn would have prevented any intrusion into our Galaxy.
If the Chomak survive as an unassailable bastion and logistics node for the Magellanic Resistance, the Andromedans would never leave the Magellanic Cloud (unless the numbers of ships they had available was so huge that Operation Unity would fail at its inception).
This always got back to the problem that the only way the Magellanic Cloud worked is if the Andromedans could consider it "secure". Now, secure does not mean that they have tracked down and destroyed every Magellanic ship, but it does mean that there is no significant threat to the Andromedan "line of communications" back to their Home Galaxy, and no chance of such a threat developing within the cloud.
So, yes, there would be a resistance, hidden bases, etc. And the Magellanics would be in a constant state of decline, not able to replace ship losses (or even crew losses) as fast as they were losing them. Starved for resources. But still able to win a local fight here and there (knock off a few Cargo Sleds and their escorts, hit an isolated mining colony, rescue a few "slaves" here and there). On the whole, they would be doomed to eventually being ground down to nothing.
It had to be that way, or the Andromedans simply would not have moved on to our Galaxy.
I do not at this juncture know what the Chomak are going to look like, but they are not going to be a race occupying forty (40) Dyson Spheres (according to the Data Gary Carney indicated Ken Burnside had approved for them). Given the Tholian Holdfast's SMALL Dyson sphere has 20 Economic points, and is by definition smaller than the ones the Chomak would occupy, even if you limited them to no more than what the Tholian sphere was capable of you are talking about an economy worth more than 400 (four HUNDRED) Economic Points by itself (more than 400 once you add in the value of the four "provinces" these spheres occupy according to the data provided). That is more than the Federation and Klingon Empire economies combined (363). Even if you limited the economic output of those spheres to no more than a small planet (which would not be believable) that still gets you 120 economic points (more than half the value of the Federation by themselves). There is simply no way the Andromedans can turn their backs to the Chomak.
Concur. The only way forward is to ignore everything Ken ever wrote about the Chomak and invent something entirely different (and more plausible) from whole cloth.
Will this be an internal rebuild, or will you be accepting outside submissions/suggestions for the Chomak?
I ask this as a C5 playtester, and want to keep help making it better.
--
JonB