By Mike West (Mjwest) on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 07:41 pm: Edit |
Catfish drones are FD51.
Subspace Guided Missles are FD53.
SCUDs are FD54. They have their own rules and don't need to be included.
Hyperdrones are E55. They have only one warhead type, one control mechanism, and one "speed". They do not need to be included.
By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 07:56 pm: Edit |
Thanks, Mike.
Can somebody answer the question on SGMs? (Are they a drone type or a drone enchancement?)
Once I get that I can post the current proposal.
By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 11:14 pm: Edit |
Correction on Catfish drones: Can only use explosive, internal armor, spearfish or null modules, not every module, as Mike Kenyon said. See (FD51.12).
An SGM is a drone type. It has one space and can carry any module that a type-I can carry. (FD53.11).
Of course, whether you treat it as its own type, or a frame enhancement that can only be applied to type-I frames is just a matter of semantics.
By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 11:26 pm: Edit |
Thanks, Andy.
Can CATFISH use ATG, extended range, and/or external armor?
By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 11:34 pm: Edit |
Letter Code | Description | BPV | YIS | Avail | Size | Warheads | Damage | Destroy | End | Rule | Notes |
Drone Frames - Pick 1 | |||||||||||
I- | Type-I Drone Frame | 0.0 | 65 | G | 1 | 1 | - | 4 | 3 | (FD2.1) | - |
II- | Type-II Drone Frame | 0.5 | 77/100/120 | L/R/G | 1 | 1 | - | 4 | 2 | (FD10.33) | 1 |
III- | Type-III Drone Frame | 0.5 | 83 | L | 1 | 1 | - | 4 | 25 | (FD2.1) | 1, 3, 4, 9 |
IV- | Type-IV Drone Frame | 0.0 | 65 | G | 2 | 2 | - | 6 | 3 | (FD2.1) | - |
V- | Type-V Drone Frame | 0.5 | 77/100/120 | L/R/G | 2 | 2 | - | 6 | 2 | (FD10.33) | 1 |
VI- | Type-VI Dogfight Drone Frame | 0.0 | 99 | G | 0.5 | N/A | 2/4/8 | 3 | 1 | (FD2.5) | 1, 5, 6, 7, 8 |
H- | Type-H Heavy Drone Frame | 0.0 | 165 | G | 3 | 3 | - | 12 | 3 | (FD21.2) | 17, 18 |
H2- | Type-H Heavy Drone Frame | 0.0 | 165 | G | 3 | 3 | - | 12 | 2 | (FD21.2) | 1, 17, 18 |
VII- | Type-VII X-Drone Frame | 0.0 | 181 | G | 1 | 1.5 | - | 6 | 5 | (XFD2.0) | 2, 4 |
VIII- | Type-VIII X-Drone Frame | 0.0 | 181 | G | 1.5 | 2 | - | 8 | 5 | (XFD2.0) | 2, 4 |
IX- | Type-IX X-Dogfight Drone Frame | 0.0 | 181 | G | 0.5 | N/A | 2/4/8 | 4 | 2 | (XFD2.0) | 2, 5, 6, 7, 8 |
Drone Speeds - Pick 1 | |||||||||||
S- | Slow Speed | 0.0 | 65 | G | - | - | - | - | - | (FD10.32) | - |
M- | Medium Speed | 0.5 | 165/166/167 | L/R/G | - | - | - | - | - | (FD10.34) | - |
F- | Fast Speed | 1.0 | 178/179/180 | L/R/G | - | - | - | - | - | (FD10.35) | - |
Additional Upgrades - No space consumed. | |||||||||||
X- | Extended Range | 0.5 | 93 | G | - | - | - | - | x2, x4 | (FD2.222) | 8, 9 |
H- | Active Terminal Guidance | 0.5 | 126 | R | - | - | - | - | - | (FD5.2) | - |
b- | 0.5 External Armor | 0.3 | 67 | L | - | - | - | +2 | - | (FD12.0) | 10, 11, 12 |
B- | 1.0 External Armor | 0.5 | 67 | L | - | - | - | +4 | - | (FD12.0) | 10, 11, 12 |
U- | Catfish | 5.0 | 121 | G | - | - | - | - | - | (FD51.0) | 21, 22 |
Q- | Subspace-Guided Missile | 2.0 | 156 | G | - | - | - | - | - | (FD53.0) | 23 |
Drone Warheads - Pick up to space available for frame | |||||||||||
e | 0.5 Explosive | 0.0 | 65 | G | - | - | +6 | - | - | (FD10.41) | 19 |
E | 1.0 Explosive | 0.0 | 65 | G | - | - | +12 | - | - | (FD10.41) | 19 |
n | 0.5 Null Space | 0.0 | 65 | G | - | - | 0 | 0 | - | (FD10.48) | - |
N | 1.0 Null Space | 0.0 | 65 | G | - | - | 0 | 0 | - | (FD10.48) | - |
a | 0.5 Armor | 0.0 | 67 | R | - | - | - | +2 | - | (FD12.0) | 10, 12 |
A | 1.0 Armor | 0.0 | 67 | R | - | - | - | +4 | - | (FD12.0) | 10, 12 |
P | Probe | 0.0 | 152/155 | R | - | - | - | - | - | (FD6.0) | 16, 20, 22 |
m | 1.0 Multi-Warhead | 2.0 | 175 | L | - | - | 3xType-VI | - | - | (FD8.0) | 13, 14, 22 |
M | 2.0 Multi-Warhead | 2.5 | 170 | L | - | - | 5xType-VI | - | - | (FD8.0) | 13, 14, 22 |
C | ECM | 0.0 | 150 | R | - | - | - | - | - | (FD9.0) | 3, 12, 20, 22 |
f | 1.0 SwordFish (Ph3) | 0.5 | 174 | L | - | - | Ph-3 | - | - | (FD11.0) | 13, 22 |
F | 2.0 SwordFish (Ph-2) | 1.0 | 174 | L | - | - | Ph-2 | - | - | (FD11.0) | 13, 22 |
G | 2.0 X-Swordfish (Ph-1) | 2.0 | 181 | L | - | - | Ph-1 | - | - | (XFD11.12) | 13, 22 |
s | 1.0 SpearFish | 0.5 | 175 | L | - | - | 1+2 | - | - | (FD14.0) | 13, 15, 19 |
S | 2.0 SpearFish | 1.0 | 175 | L | - | - | 2+4 | - | - | (FD14.0) | 13, 15, 19 |
t | 1.0 StarFish | 2.0 | 172 | L | - | - | 3xADD | - | - | (FD15.0) | 13, 22 |
T | 2.0 StarFish | 2.5 | 172 | L | - | - | 5xADD | - | - | (FD15.0) | 13, 22 |
v | Stingray | 0.5 | 168/171 | L/R | - | - | Type-VI | - | - | (FD16.0) | 13, 14, 22 |
w | StoneFish | 0.5 | 168/171 | L/R | - | - | ADD | - | - | (FD17.0) | 13, 22 |
By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 11:44 pm: Edit |
Latest incarnation, above.
Here's what I did
1. Added a lot of stuff; like size, warhead spaces, damage to destroy, damage done, endurance, Catfish, Subspace Guided Missiles, Type-H2.
1. Per Andy's suggestion (with input from others) I canned the Moderate/speed-12 designation in favor of the indication that a Type-II, -V, -III (without a different speed), or -VI (without a different speed) is a base speed of 12.
2. Changed the letter code for EXTERNAL ARMOR from e/E to b/B. I felt e/E was better used for EXPLOSIVE. ("B" for bolt-on armor?)
3. Changed EXPLOSIVE from d/x/X to e/E, to try to be more intuitive.
4. Dropped any 3rd letter code where there was 0.5, 1.0. and 2.0 module sizes. Just have a 0.5 and 1.0. If you need 2.0 just use the 1.0 warhead twice ("EE" for 2.0 Explosive).
5. Changed the 0.5/1.0 Null Module from u/n to n/N.
6. Dropped the 2.0 Null Module (had been "N").
7. Changed INTERNAL ARMOR from r/R to a/A to be more intuitive.
8. Created "G" for the 2.0 space X-Swordfish module (Ph-1).
9. Added LOTS of notes and the NOTES field to reference them.
Comments? Please.
By Michael Kenyon (Mikek) on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 11:56 am: Edit |
> Can CATFISH use ATG, extended range, and/or
> external armor?
First, thanks for the correction, I missed that.
Cannot have ATG, Catfish includes its own guidance system.
Extended range can be added.
External armor expressly cannot. Its hard enough killing the things as is.
By Michael Kenyon (Mikek) on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 12:02 pm: Edit |
SCUDS ... you could adjust them to normal rules, but it would go something like this ...
SCUDS are 8 space drones, 24 damage, range 1 9/16 turn (50 hexes).
The only supported modules would be ...
E ... as normal
e ... as normal
E~ ... size 1/3 ... damage 4
e~ ... size 1/6 ... damage 2
A~ ... size 1/3 ... 1 damage point
X~ ... size 1/6 ... 1 extra hex of endurance
Each SCUD must contain at least 4 spaces worth of explosives.
(SCUDS start at 96 damage and you eat off the explosive strength to add a range (2) or damage (4) point to them.)
Really, I agree, it's probably not worth putting them and their funky rules in the chart.
By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 12:16 pm: Edit |
Quote:Its hard enough killing the •••• things as is.
Quote:Really, I agree, it's probably not worth putting them and their funky rules in the chart.
By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 01:13 pm: Edit |
How about adding the module size (0.5 Explosive) to the Warhead column (0.5).
How about denoting end for the VI as 12H rather than 1 turn.
Rather than a note at the bottom the III-XX drone might deserve its own line.
We could use nomenclature assembly instructions so that the same drone always has the same designation.
Still not a fan of single digit modules. Would prefer a nomenclature that is intuitive to those who don't memorize the table. CT = Catfish. S3 = Swordfish P3, S2 = Swordfish P2, S1 = X-Swordfish P1. ST = Starfish. MW = Multi-Warhead. ECM = ECM. STG = Stingray and STN = Stonefish. If we do have to use single digits for some reason we should consider the use of symbols like $*&%#+. External Armor could be (xA or xa) or (x or xx), which might be clearer than b.
One thing that always confuses me is when I add a limited frame modification, like 0.5 External Armor to a IV drone, the drone becomes a 2 space limited drone (FD10.641). There may be a better way to denote this in chart form.
I’d like a nomenclature addition to express the speed of a drone that has external armor installed, for every combination. Since there are 14 different speeds, the best answer might be to not clutter up the main chart and instead have a second chart integrating (FD12.132), (FD21.36) and (XFD12.132). In any case the nomenclature construction rules should clearly define how to identify the actual speed of the drone. I like IVb-EE-10/24-F(26) or even better IVb-10/24-F(26).
Need clarification on how to denote submunition speed in a MW drone.
Need a Slug drone listing. It’s the same as filling it up with armor, but its Limited availability.
Like the External Armor Speed table the SCUD can live in its own table.
Can we make the column named End, Range? Warheads, Spaces? Damage, Warhead?
Find a way to incorporate the notes for (FD10.622) and (FD10.632).
By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 01:20 pm: Edit |
What's the difference between H- and H2- for heavy drones? Do they conflict badly with the H- for ATG?
By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 01:51 pm: Edit |
It's harder to kill a catfish because catfish drones are cloaked.
By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 07:15 pm: Edit |
Quote:How about adding the module size (0.5 Explosive) to the Warhead column (0.5).
Quote:How about denoting end for the VI as 12H rather than 1 turn.
Quote:Rather than a note at the bottom the III-XX drone might deserve its own line.
Quote:We could use nomenclature assembly instructions so that the same drone always has the same designation.
Quote:Still not a fan of single digit modules. Would prefer a nomenclature that is intuitive to those who don't memorize the table. CT = Catfish. S3 = Swordfish P3, S2 = Swordfish P2, S1 = X-Swordfish P1. ST = Starfish. MW = Multi-Warhead. ECM = ECM. STG = Stingray and STN = Stonefish. If we do have to use single digits for some reason we should consider the use of symbols like $*&%#+. External Armor could be (xA or xa) or (x or xx), which might be clearer than b.
Quote:One thing that always confuses me is when I add a limited frame modification, like 0.5 External Armor to a IV drone, the drone becomes a 2 space limited drone (FD10.641). There may be a better way to denote this in chart form.
Quote:I’d like a nomenclature addition to express the speed of a drone that has external armor installed, for every combination. Since there are 14 different speeds, the best answer might be to not clutter up the main chart and instead have a second chart integrating (FD12.132), (FD21.36) and (XFD12.132).
Quote:In any case the nomenclature construction rules should clearly define how to identify the actual speed of the drone. I like IVb-EE-10/24-F(26) or even better IVb-10/24-F(26).
Quote:Need clarification on how to denote submunition speed in a MW drone.
Quote:Need a Slug drone listing. It’s the same as filling it up with armor, but its Limited availability.
Quote:Like the External Armor Speed table the SCUD can live in its own table.
Quote:Can we make the column named End, Range? Warheads, Spaces? Damage, Warhead?
Quote:Find a way to incorporate the notes for (FD10.622) and (FD10.632).
By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 07:16 pm: Edit |
Quote:What's the difference between H- and H2- for heavy drones? Do they conflict badly with the H- for ATG?
By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 07:17 pm: Edit |
Quote:It's harder to kill a catfish because catfish drones are cloaked.
By Jeff Laikind (J_Laikind) on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 09:52 pm: Edit |
One could argue that a Type-III-XX is a separate frame because:
a) It's the only modification that changes a 1 space drone into a 2 space drone
b) Only the III-XX can use Wild Boar targeting (FD5.255)
c) (FD10.671) allows a DB ship to fill its cargo spaces completely with Type-III-XX.
By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 10:01 pm: Edit |
I agree, but that's not how the rules treat it.
By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 12:30 pm: Edit |
A III-XX drone is a very different drone from a III drone. It’s a different drone in many more ways than a type-IV is different from a type-I, regardless of what is implied in the rules.
On single vs. multi-digit coding, could you explain what you mean with regard to “not backward compatible with the decades of SFB material?” If you are using nomenclatures previously documented in the rules please let me know where. I agree that putting together two proposals and letting the players decide is warranted.
With regard to End, Warheads and Damage, I just don’t like the column names you chose. Could be just me but I find them confusing.
By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 02:32 pm: Edit |
OK, I'll add Type-IIIXX as it's own type.
Quote:what you mean with regard to “not backward compatible with the decades of SFB material?
Quote:With regard to End, Warheads and Damage, I just don’t like the column names you chose. Could be just me but I find them confusing.
By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 02:46 pm: Edit |
Your comment about not liking the word "spaces" made me thing in another direction. There is no reason we can't have two words in the header for clarity.
We could have "Warhead Spaces" or "Payload Spaces".
We could have "Explosive Damage".
I think I like "Endurance" more than "End" or "Range".
By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 03:26 pm: Edit |
I agree and we may use that in the final proposal.
I was just trying to keep the columns as narrow as possible by not using very large headings.
By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 03:45 pm: Edit |
How about this?
Letter Code | Description | BPV | YIS | Avail | Size | Warheads | Damage | Destroy | Endurance | Rule | Notes |
Drone Frames - Pick 1 | |||||||||||
I- | Type-I Drone Frame | 0.0 | 65 | G | 1.0 | 1 | - | 4 | 3 turns | (FD2.1) | - |
II- | Type-II Drone Frame | 0.5 | 77/100/120 | L/R/G | 1.0 | 1 | - | 4 | 2 turns | (FD10.33) | 1 |
III- | Type-III Drone Frame | 0.5 | 83 | L | 1.0 | 1 | - | 4 | 25 turns | (FD2.1) | 1, 3, 4 |
III-XX- | Type-III Extended Range Drone | 1.0 | 93 | L | 2.0 | 1 | - | 4 | 100 turns | (FD10.24) | 1, 3, 4, 9 |
IV- | Type-IV Drone Frame | 0.0 | 65 | G | 2.0 | 2 | - | 6 | 3 turns | (FD2.1) | - |
V- | Type-V Drone Frame | 0.5 | 77/100/120 | L/R/G | 2.0 | 2 | - | 6 | 2 turns | (FD10.33) | 1 |
VI- | Type-VI Dogfight Drone Frame | 0.0 | 99 | G | 0.5 | NA | 2/4/8 | 3 | 12 hex | (FD2.5) | 1, 5, 6, 7, 8 |
H- | Type-H Heavy Drone Frame | 0.0 | 165 | G | 3.0 | 3 | - | 12 | 3 turns | (FD21.2) | 18, 19 |
H2- | Type-H Heavy Drone Frame | 0.0 | 165 | G | 3.0 | 3 | - | 12 | 2 turns | (FD21.2) | 1, 18, 19 |
VII- | Type-VII X-Drone Frame | 0.0 | 181 | G | 1.0 | 1.5 | - | 6 | 5 turns | (XFD2.0) | 2, 4 |
VIII- | Type-VIII X-Drone Frame | 0.0 | 181 | G | 1.5 | 2 | - | 8 | 5 turns | (XFD2.0) | 2, 4 |
IX- | Type-IX X-Dogfight Drone Frame | 0.0 | 181 | G | 0.5 | NA | 2/4/8 | 4 | 2 turns | (XFD2.0) | 2, 5, 6, 7, 8 |
Drone Speeds - Pick 1 | |||||||||||
S- | Slow Speed | 0.0 | 65 | G | - | - | - | - | - | (FD10.32) | - |
M- | Medium Speed | 0.5 | 165/166/167 | L/R/G | - | - | - | - | - | (FD10.34) | - |
F- | Fast Speed | 1.0 | 178/179/180 | L/R/G | - | - | - | - | - | (FD10.35) | - |
Additional Upgrades - No space consumed. | |||||||||||
X- | Extended Range | 0.5 | 93 | G | - | - | - | - | x2, x4 | (FD2.222) | 8, 9 |
H- | Active Terminal Guidance (ATG) | 0.5 | 126 | R | - | - | - | - | - | (FD5.2) | 4, 23 |
b- | 0.5 External Armor | 0.25 | 67 | L | - | - | - | +2 | - | (FD12.0) | 10, 11, 12, 23 |
B- | 1.0 External Armor | 0.5 | 67 | L | - | - | - | +4 | - | (FD12.0) | 10, 11, 12, 23 |
U- | Catfish | 5.0 | 121 | G | - | - | - | - | - | (FD51.0) | 22, 23 |
Q- | Subspace-Guided Missile | 2.0 | 156 | G | - | - | - | - | - | (FD53.0) | 24 |
Drone Warheads - Pick up to space available for frame | |||||||||||
e | 0.5 Explosive | 0.0 | 65 | G | - | 0.5 | +6 | - | - | (FD10.41) | 20 |
E | 1.0 Explosive | 0.0 | 65 | G | - | 1 | +12 | - | - | (FD10.41) | 20 |
n | 0.5 Null Space | 0.0 | 65 | G | - | 0.5 | 0 | 0 | - | (FD10.48) | - |
N | 1.0 Null Space | 0.0 | 65 | G | - | 1 | 0 | 0 | - | (FD10.48) | - |
a | 0.5 Armor | 0.0 | 67 | R | - | 0.5 | - | +2 | - | (FD12.0) | 10, 12, 13 |
A | 1.0 Armor | 0.0 | 67 | R | - | 1 | - | +4 | - | (FD12.0) | 10, 12, 13 |
P | Probe | 0.0 | 152/155 | R | - | 1 | - | - | - | (FD6.0) | 17, 21, 23 |
m | 1.0 Multi-Warhead | 2.0 | 175 | L | - | 1 | 3xType-VI | - | - | (FD8.0) | 14, 15, 23 |
M | 2.0 Multi-Warhead | 2.5 | 170 | L | - | 2 | 5xType-VI | - | - | (FD8.0) | 14, 15, 23 |
C | ECM | 0.0 | 150 | R | - | 1 | - | - | - | (FD9.0) | 3, 12, 22, 23 |
f | 1.0 SwordFish (Ph3) | 0.5 | 174 | L | - | 1 | Ph-3 | - | - | (FD11.0) | 14, 23 |
F | 2.0 SwordFish (Ph-2) | 1.0 | 174 | L | - | 2 | Ph-2 | - | - | (FD11.0) | 14, 23 |
G | 2.0 X-Swordfish (Ph-1) | 2.0 | 181 | L | - | 2 | Ph-1 | - | - | (XFD11.12) | 14, 23 |
s | 1.0 SpearFish | 0.5 | 175 | L | - | 1 | 1+2 | - | - | (FD14.0) | 14, 16, 20 |
S | 2.0 SpearFish | 1.0 | 175 | L | - | 2 | 2+4 | - | - | (FD14.0) | 14, 16, 20 |
t | 1.0 StarFish | 2.0 | 172 | L | - | 1 | 3xADD | - | - | (FD15.0) | 14, 23 |
T | 2.0 StarFish | 2.5 | 172 | L | - | 2 | 5xADD | - | - | (FD15.0) | 14, 23 |
v | Stingray | 0.5 | 168/171 | L/R | - | 1 | 1xType-VI | - | - | (FD16.0) | 14, 15, 23 |
w | StoneFish | 0.5 | 168/171 | L/R | - | 1 | 1xADD | - | - | (FD17.0) | 14, 23 |
By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 06:18 pm: Edit |
Any input or are we ready to go to formats to write out the drone?
By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 07:26 pm: Edit |
I like it. Do you have a spreadsheet version?
By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 05:08 pm: Edit |
Can you add a second column for alternative name (long code)?
I haven't studied the latest version in detail but think we can safely move on to drone nomenclature construction.
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