Er, the Chomak had one Dyson sphere worth 15 EPs and two provinces worth 4 EPs. They're a LONG way away.

F&E map based economies (as done by Jeff Laikind 15 years ago or more...)

Baduvai + Uthiki: 59
Eneen: 58
Maghadim: 49
Yrol: 5
Chomak: 19

My chief worry is keeping the Magellanics alive for long enough for ANY of them to be around for Op Unity. That's 2 decades of battles with not even a province for generating revenue.

Conventional wisdom says insurgencies don't survive without outside funding and material support.

While I understand Petrick's point about the Andros wanting to make sure everything was secure before moving to the Alpha Sector, that logic also means that the insurgency would get stomped FLAT before Y188.

It also means the Andros would've repaired the damaged Desecrator building their BB, just for redundant capacity and a redundant link back to Andromeda for reinforcements.

When assaulting the Alpha sector, which they'd been exploring and scouting for 20+ years, they'd've concentrated forces on one politically isolated power. Rather than the LDR, which is a single province power, I'd've taken out the Romulans, who're still reeling from the Romulan Civil War, the loss of one of their capital planets, have no borders with any allies, and have a substantial economy. My second choice would've been the Hydrans, who have a smaller economy.

Instead, they crushed the LDR, and seemed to attack everyone simultaneously. If they can be so foolish as to do this, how foolish is it to have them decide that something that's a year's travel and isn't sending forces out is worth hitting later?

The Chomak, while not as defensive as the Tholians, are a defensive posture power. In the 40 years between the first contact with the Andros and the fall of the Core, the Chomak didn't bother sending a ship out to the rest of the LMC. They did vigorously try to defend what was theirs.

Their assistance to the rest of the Magellanic Powers during the insurgency phase was intended to be around 5 EP/year (total), plus (perhaps, if permitted) access to shipyards for "service life extension" refits and repairs.

Without something to put money in, every time a Magellanic ship gets crippled, it never recovers. Every time one gets destroyed, it's never replaced...and I have trouble picturing there being ANY Magellanic ships left after 41 F&E turns of this.

Perhaps they can make money in other ways. To me, an outside benefactor (the Chomak) make more sense - much the same way that the VC got support from the Soviets, plus it gives an opportunity to show another race to the game.

Which isn't to say the Andros couldn't eliminate them - I think an Intruder group costs more EPs than the entire Chomak economy. (I don't have the CapLog with the F&E Andros in it handy).

It's all a matter of when they eliminate the Chomak; I'd like it to be as late as possible (and if remotely possible, have it not happen at all, though I know that's unlikely...).

And yes, the last paragraph is a change in position on my part.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 07:16 pm: Edit

I don't know that the Chomak have to die, but they must be absolutely no threat to the Andros, and that's based on Chomak capabilities, not on Chomak intentions.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 07:18 pm: Edit

If the Chomak (and I don't know just how much KenB has written up of them) have a weapon that is quite vicious against the Andromedans (ie it shreads PA panels), but are purely defensive in nature then Andromedans would probably just consider them a No-Go Zone.

As Ken says they have a whole 2 provinces, whoopie. If the Andromedans consider the Alpha/Omega Octants "Greener Pastures" than the tiny spot the Chomak occupy why bother with them?

Yes I know the Andro's consider everything a target to conquer and rape and pillage, blah, blah, blah. But if they encounter a race which would shread more Andromedan ships than they could redeem in salvage/slaves/technology/whatever, they don't have to be stupid to throw away their ships against a defensive race.

If the Andros lost 4 Dominators and 8+ Intruders to conquer the Chomak Dyson Sphere and 2 provinces that would be a net loss for them. F+E-wise if it has 20 PGB (fighters y/n?), 1-2 SB/STB, 10 CA/CC ships it'll be a hard fight against the Andromedans (do the Chomak have P-4 equivalents?)

Remember we have no idea (F+E wise) just what the Andromedans get for "conquering" territory. They might get a 1 turn bonus of 3 EPs then 0.25EP/turn for captured provinces, and who knows about a Chomak Dyson Sphere, we don't have to take the Tholian one as "you get +10EP for all Dyson Spheres per turn".

If the Chomak are sturdy enough in their defenses for the Dyson Sphere the Andromedans could be quite content with picketing them with 3-6 SatBases to smash any Cruisers which leave the Sphere/territory. Figuring the Andros leave a picket force of 2-4 Conquistadors and 4-6 Pythons/Anacondas that can shread any force that leaves the Chomak space.

The Chomak could have a simple enough unit that stops DisDev's from operating. A base weapon that takes 2 power a turn and cancels all DisDev operation with 30 hexes. The Chomak's don't have the economy/forces to expand their Base Stations with these outward toward the Andromedan RTN network, so this makes the Chomak a hard turtle to crack, that doesn't really have a juicy inside to work for.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 07:19 pm: Edit

Ken Burnside:

All I know is that Gary Carney sent in a proposal. The proposal included both a map saying this is what the Magellanic Cloud looked, like, and thanking you, specifically, by name, for your "advice and help with the project".

The map included a legend that specifically stated that Chomak Space was: Four Provinces and forty Dyson Spheres.

Baduvai Space is listed as: 22 Provinces and 19 planets, and seems to indicate that the Capital area includes another 8 planets, and also apparently controlling three "neutral worlds" and 7 Uthiki worlds.

Eneen Space is listed as: 24 provinces and 21 planets, and seems to indicate that there are another 10 planets in the capital, and also controlling (apparently) three "neutral worlds".

Maghadim space is listed as: 20 provinces and 29 planets, no capital.

There was an apparent effort to divide the "on map" planets between Major and Minor, but the quality of the map graphics that printed made actually reading the map at this end nigh impossible (not completely, just about completely). Without killing what is left of my eyes I can count about 8 Major Worlds on the map, but trying to count the Minors, or figure out the provincial boundaries, is impossible (not nearly impossible, but flatly impossible).

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 07:30 pm: Edit

If that was the map from Ad-Astra's ftp-server that KenB posted while C5 was being finalized, that was the F+E map for the LMC.

40 EPs from Dyson Spheres, not 40xDyson Spheres. 4EPs from Provinces (2 provinces)

While that 40EP doesn't match with KenB's post above of 1 Dyson Sphere worth 15EPs. Ken might be mistaken with what he remembers (as he said it's old data).

While yes it matters that 44EPs on Ken's map is different than Ken's number of 19EPs above. Nothing of Ken's stuff for F+E is set in stone, or anywhere near it yet.

I could email my map to you Monday if you want to compare with what I have to what Gary has.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 08:27 pm: Edit

Hi.


I should perhaps clear up a few issues that I've seen in the Chomak discussion, and a few other things here and there about the Magellanic data I was going by (from the background in C5 and the preliminary F&E data Ad Astra used to host).

Firstly, the Chomak:

*When I looked at the map, I noticed the wording 'Provinces: 4, Dyson Spheres: 40' listed on the map key.

I was assuming that these numbers were the combined EP totals for each source of revenue (2 EPs per province held, 20 EPs per Sphere - are both spheres in the Capital hex?), but I can see how the map would have been interpreted differently.

(Just to point out the map was untouched by myself - I left it as it was found on the site.)

*There are two issues which may affect the amount of economic presence the Chomak would have in an Andro campaign (in terms of whether they stockpiled supplies or not beforehand):

1. According to the C5 timeline, the Chomak have been a space-faring power for over seven thousand years. Just how long it would take to actually build those Dyson Spheres (which could take centuries or more, or would if the Chomak felt comfortable enough to go slow) and therefore focus the Community's economy on their construction is an interesting question.

2. Prior to Y67, the Chomak occupied most of the northern portion of the Cloud (which prevented Eneen and Baduvai expansion during that time). No explanation is given for the Chomak's withdrawal from these regions - but if they had stayed, they would have likely been drawn into wars with the Triple Pact powers, and been on the front lines against the Andromedans. (As it happened, the withdrawal to the Cluster kept the Andros from uncovering the race until a Chomak task force ran into the Andros in Y163. And they only stumbled on Chomak itself in Y172.)


In terms of what kind of specific technologies the Chomak had, it would still be insufficient to hold off the eventual Andromedan onslaught (which finally came in the Y180s, after the rest of the Cloud had been conquered and the Andros had deployed Dominators to the LMC) - although it would likely extract a pound of flesh from the Andro invasion force.


Secondly, the Maghadim:


*The Maghadim are historically divided into three major factions (Northern, Eastern, Western) and the three starbases in the Core - which I'm guessing are in 1307, 1011 and 1311, though the map must have been drawn up before they were listed as starbases (and the SBs aren't in the Maghadim F&E data either) - are the three Maghadim capitals (as described in the background).


Thirdly, life in the Fringe:


*If you want to know more about how the remnants managed to survive out in the Fringe, look to the Jindarians - and to the asteroid-dwelling Jumokians.

The Jindies have two caravans who have been in the LMC for a long time (it doesn't say how long, though) and they have refined their abilities to live off marginal worlds, asteroid belts and what have you.

When the Jumokian remnants fled the homeworld after the Eneen conquest, they learned much from the Jindarians (the kind of ad-hoc infrastructure they maintained is hinted at in the SSDs for Jumokian Asteroid Shipyards and DefSats).

In time, when the Triple Pact (and the Chomak) were forced into the Fringe, they in turn learned from the two Js, and spent the years leading up to Unity scampering from rock to rock.

The Fringe is perhaps closer to the off-map areas seen in the Alpha Octant, in terms of how difficult it can be to root out enemy holdouts (The Klingons and Lyrans never made a lot of headway agaisnt the Old Colonies, and the Jumokians were already hiding out from the Eneen in the Fringe before the Andros showed up in the Cloud).


Gary

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 09:39 pm: Edit

Well, I sure hope Dyson Spheres don't become common place. The Tholians are unique with a unique sphere (not technically a Dyson's but perhaps, IMO, more accurately a Dysonian World Sphere.

Personally, I could see one race building one real Dysons Sphere sure but many? In the LMC?? Is there enough resources in the whole LMC to build multiple Dyson Spheres?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 10:12 pm: Edit

Well, considering that the most the Chomak likely built was 2 (maybe just the one), that they had 7000+ years in which to do it (including using resources gained in their era of control over the northern Cloud), they are as good a candidate as any.

And 2 Spheres in 7000 years, compared to how many Spheres in M81 under the Will?

And note that we are only referring to the Chomak, no-one else.


And don't worry, we're not plotting to cheapen your beloved Tholians... at least, my local Seltorian Sage told me to say as much!


Gary

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 02:12 am: Edit

It does not matter what Ken meant or what Gary wrote. If/when we do C5A, all will be set right. Probably in 2008 or 2009.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 01:32 pm: Edit

One of my older maps did have the Chomak Capital worth more; when it was compared to the Tholian Holdfast, and the need to provide LIMITED support to the insurgency, it was reduced to 15 - it can clearly be set to whatever's needed for story purposes.

The only ones graven in Jell-O are the three major powers (Baduvai/Eneen/Maghadim). Much of the reasoning behind the Magellanic Patrol Rules came from playing F&E on a scale where a big economy was 60+ points, and having three 8-ComPot cruiser hulls in your 9 ship fleet was an awe inspiring juggernaut of destruction.

(That peculiar gargling, wheezing sound you're hearing is your local F&E player trying not to laugh too hard.)

We ran something similar to the F&E Andro rules, and changed the game midway through it when the F&E Andro rules came out; the F&E Andro rules had different ComPots (generally a a point or two higher than we'd been using), and we'd actually been tracking SatShips as frigates, not super fighter factors, which made them much tougher.

Andros could use "Reserve Movement" at any point in time to go from RTN node to RTN node, and could "jump off" the RTN and move up to 4 hexes. Magellanic ships could move 4 hexes and could use Reserve Movement by the F&E rules.

Andromedan RTN nodes were handled with a separate map, going double blind. There were some interesting deception tactics running - it was sometimes worth it to "short" yourself some of that 4 hex movement, to lay the impression that the RTN node was in a different hex.

Magellanic task forces could use the Survey rules to try and find RTN nodes. I forget what probability we assigned to detection; I think it was a 1:6 chance. You had to put a survey ship in a hex and have it survey for an F&E turn to have a chance to detect the node.

So, there was very much a game of "Andro appears in this hex. He must have come from one of these 24 hexes that are range 4 from where he is. Which one do I want to survey to try to find the SatBase?"

Once you FOUND a SatBase, you could generally figure out where the other RTN nodes were with some time.

Ultimately, I think we made the RTN nodes too difficult to find, though the battles between an Intruder Group and a typical Magellanic fleet (1 CA, 1 CW, 2-3 DD/DW, 1-2 FFs) seemed (per the F&E players) about right, and the Andros could make a pretty decent strategy out of hitting whatever they wanted.

Two nucleuses for special rules were discussed, but not implemented.

1) Magellanic Powers ships lose two BIR (and Maghadim fighters and PFs are half strength) when fighting anything with Temporal Elevators. TEs more or less render you immune to mass drivers, and allow you to do lots of things to buy time against Plasma Es.

2) Some sort of rule that sllowed DisDev equipped ships an advantage against Magellanic attrition units. Actual mechanism as yet undefined, but we'd noticed that the fighter factors did pretty nasty things to combined ComPot, and this might have permutations that needed toning down. On the SFB side, it's justifiable - short range plasma isn't particularly good against Andros in general, and the threat of a DisDev hop was enough to keep people from salvoing all their mass drivers at one target in one impulse (where they're the most dangerous).

None of us could work up enthusiasm for playing the Magellanics after the fall of the Core. 0 economy, lots of cripples, Andros everywhere.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 02:56 pm: Edit

Looks like Jindy economic rules are going to be very useful in the LMC...

Are there any trial rules for Jindarians in Fed and Empire out there?

Ken, would you prefer the use of individual counters (or 3x counters for th likes pf Vipes or Cobras in larger forces) or the fighter factors in F&E? I had recently picked up CL11 and posted over at the AndroWar thread that I'd much sooner see the former - the fghter factor thing doesn't wash for me.


Gary

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 05:34 pm: Edit

We published Jindarian rules once. They don't really have economics. They just have caravan counters that gain strength by mining, move randomly, lose strength in combat, and divide in half when they exceed a certain point.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 05:47 pm: Edit

Ken Burnside said: Er, the Chomak had one Dyson sphere worth 15 EPs and two provinces worth 4 EPs. They're a LONG way away.

PETRICK REPLY: Point #1: I can honestly say that all the data I had on the Chomak was what was in the files Ken sent me, that went into Module C5. I have never heard that the Chomak had Dyson spheres at all, whether one or forty. The arrival of Carney's map with a legend listing Dyson spheres was the first time it showed up to the best of my knowledge. Not even the data you left on the Chomak while you were here mentions Dyson Spheres and the Chomak. For that matter, you never developed an R section or had one to leave, so all the data I had on the Chomak was rules on weapons. (Which, themselves, are odd because in one conversation you had with me you very specifically said the Chomak used phaser-1s, but there are none on the SSDs for the Chomak you left. Maybe you meant to say 'galactic sensors', since the SSDs have Galactic Standard Sensors and Scanners, but the words 'sensors and scanners' sound very different from 'phasers'. Could just be another example of your not having made up your mind yet.) SO THIS IS ALL THE DATA I HAVE EVER HAD TO WORK WITH ON THE CHOMAK:

Chomak entry as it reads in module C5: Region C is the Chomak Community. The Lesser Magellanic Cloud's gravitational field has only recently captured the small star cluster they call home. Much of the history of the LMC comes from the Chomak, who initially avoided the Andromedan assault by being out of the direct path of danger, and were the last race to be conquered.
As it reads in your original draft (and as it was presented in Module E1 with no changes): Region C is the Chomak Community, an organization of interstellar retirees displaced from the other side of the galaxy. The Lesser Magellanic Cloud's gravitational field has only recently captured the small star cluster they call home. Much of the history of the LMC comes from the Chomak, who managed to avoid the majority of the Andromedan assault by being out of the direct path of danger, and by having defenses on a par with the Tholian Holdfast.

THERE IS NO MENTION OF A DYSON SPHERE.

Point #2: The Chomak are a long way away? MAKE UP YOUR BLOODY MIND. I am sick to death of you wanting to have your proverbial cake and eat it also. I am sick to death of your inability to be consistent. I am sick to death of your ability to say one thing to one group of people and totally reverse yourself to another group of people. I am NOT going to let you merrily define that I am an idiot who cannot see that your design is flawless.
Flatly, there is no way the Andromedans did not gather intelligence when they arrived in Magellanic space. No way they did not do that when they arrived in the Alpha Sector (and the Omega Sector). An Andromedan Intelligence Analyst (and there would not be only one of them) would look at this information and make recommendations. So here is YOUR (expletive deleted) HISTORY:

Y-7240 The Chomak establish themselves in their star cluster.

Y36 as it reads in module C5: After consolidating their hold on N'gaawm, the Eneen expand northward to Grelish, and are dissauded by the Chomak. The threat of Chomak intervention blocked the Eneen Northern expansion for more than thirty years.
As it reads in your original draft: After consolidating their hold on N'gaawm, the Eneen expand northward to Grelish, and are dissauded by a lone Chomak vessel. (Reports that this vessel was battleship sized or larger are considered unreliable.) This Chomak presence blocked the Eneen Northern expansion for more than thirty years.

Y67 as it reads in module C5: The Chomak withdraw from the rest of the Magellanic Cloud for unkown reasons. The justifiably cautious Eneen do not move into the vacated space for another three years.
As it reads in your original draft: The Chomak Society For The Aesthetic Appreciation of Electromagnetic Effects In The 43 Micron Band returns to Chomak after its 50 year observation mission is completed. The justifiably cautious Eneen do not move into the vacated space for another three years.

Y122 was not changed in any way between your draft and Module C5: A Chomak squadron circumscribes the Fringe, stopping at the boundaries of the Line, making contact with the Baduvai in the process.

Y163-Y165 as it reads in Module C5: A Chomak task force intrudes into Andromedan controlled space. After three engagements, they withdraw to their own space.
As it reads in your original draft: A Chomak task force meanders through Andromedan controlled space. After three engagements, they return to their own space.

Y172 was not materially changed in any way between your draft and Module C5: The Andromedans work their way through the Fringe and stumble on Chomak itself, and are beaten back. Over the next decade, the Andromedans make several attempts to establish RTN links into Chomak space. All are rebuffed.

Y182 as it reads in Module C5: Working independently, the Chomak and a Maghadim Task Force in Exile manage to locate and destroy two Satellite Bases. The destruction of these bases comes too late to prevent a major Andromedan assault on the Chomak.
As it reads in your original draft: Working independently, the Chomak and a Maghadim Task Force in Exile manage to locate two Satellite Bases, and destroy them together. The Chomak offer the Maghadim material assistance for repairing crippled units.

Y185 as it reads in Module C5: The Chomak fleet production facilities are destroyed and the remaining Chomak ships are scattered, the conquest of the Cloud is completed.
As it reads in your original draft: The Chomak begin a Compassionate Relief Program for the battered remnants of the LMC great powers. Each of the powers receives economic aid, medical and food supplies. The Chomak also provide assistance in establishing hidden construction facilities in the Fringe, using the Pirate facilities as a template.

Maybe you would tell the Andromedan High Command that the Chomak are 'not a threat' and 'too far away'. The history you promulgated says they:
A.) are the most powerful single group in the Magellanic cloud,
B.) have crossed that distance before,
C.) DID SO AGAIN DURING THE TIME ANDROMEDAN FORCES WERE PRESENT IN THE CLOUD,
D.) were actively assisting the defeated races, and
E.) Oh, and by the way, they have the technological capability to disassemble planets and construct a Dyson Sphere, isn't that cute?
I AM NOT CARRYING THE WATER FOR YOUR INABILITY TO BE CONSISTENT OR UNDERSTAND THE CONSEQUENCES OF YOUR BACKGROUND HAVING NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT YOU DECIDE TO SUBSEQUENTLY SAY. STOP CHANGING YOUR MIND ABOUT WHAT YOUR OWN BLOODY HISTORY SAYS NOW THAT IT HAS BEEN PUBLISHED. IT IS TOO BLOODY LATE TO REWRITE IT NOW.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 05:48 pm: Edit

KEN BURNSIDE SAID: F&E map based economies (as done by Jeff Laikind 15 years ago or more...)

Baduvai + Uthiki: 59
Eneen: 58
Maghadim: 49
Yrol: 5
Chomak: 19

My chief worry is keeping the Magellanics alive for long enough for ANY of them to be around for Op Unity. That's 2 decades of battles with not even a province for generating revenue.

Conventional wisdom says insurgencies don't survive without outside funding and material support.

REPLY: The answer to that was a combination of the vastness of space, the Jindarian Caravans, the experience of the existing Jumokian Pirates, and the Andromedan's decision that the survivors were no longer enough of a threat to tie down real forces looking for them.

Ken Burnside said: While I understand Petrick's point about the Andros wanting to make sure everything was secure before moving to the Alpha Sector, that logic also means that the insurgency would get stomped FLAT before Y188.

REPLY: No, it does not.

Ken Burnside said: It also means the Andros would've repaired the damaged Desecrator building their BB, just for redundant capacity and a redundant link back to Andromeda for reinforcements.

REPLY: No, it does not.

Ken Burnside said: When assaulting the Alpha sector, which they'd been exploring and scouting for 20+ years, they'd've concentrated forces on one politically isolated power. Rather than the LDR, which is a single province power, I'd've taken out the Romulans, who're still reeling from the Romulan Civil War, the loss of one of their capital planets, have no borders with any allies, and have a substantial economy. My second choice would've been the Hydrans, who have a smaller economy.

Instead, they crushed the LDR, and seemed to attack everyone simultaneously. If they can be so foolish as to do this, how foolish is it to have them decide that something that's a year's travel and isn't sending forces out is worth hitting later?

REPLY: No, it does not. The Andromedan operations were consistent with what they learned in defeating the Magellanics. Stop trying to rewrite game history to prove your own genius because your analysis is flat wrong.

Ken Burnside said: The Chomak, while not as defensive as the Tholians, are a defensive posture power. In the 40 years between the first contact with the Andros and the fall of the Core, the Chomak didn't bother sending a ship out to the rest of the LMC. They did vigorously try to defend what was theirs.

REPLY: Yes, that is right. The Chomak were too far away but they sent a task force that wandered around the Cloud FOR THREE YEARS during the time the Andromedans themselves actually saw them and fought them. This clearly made it obvious to the Andromedans that it was too far for Chomak Ships to reach the rest of the Magellanic Cloud. So this race that waltzed through the cloud is no threat to the Desecrator. Yes, the decision to just ignore them makes perfect sense. How could I miss such a blindingly obvious conclusion?
How could the Andromedans determine whether or not in the intervening years that the Chomak were not building a larger fleet? They could not stop them when they came out before.

Ken Burnside said: Their assistance to the rest of the Magellanic Powers during the insurgency phase was intended to be around 5 EP/year (total), plus (perhaps, if permitted) access to shipyards for "service life extension" refits and repairs.

REPLY: See Jindarian Caravans, See Jumokian Pirates.

Ken Burnside said: Without something to put money in, every time a Magellanic ship gets crippled, it never recovers. Every time one gets destroyed, its never replaced...and I have trouble picturing there being ANY Magellanic ships left after 41 F&E turns of this.

REPLY: See Jindarian Caravans, See Jumokian Pirates.

Ken Burnside said: Perhaps they can make money in other ways. To me, an outside benefactor (the Chomak) make more sense - much the same way that the VC got support from the Soviets, plus it gives an opportunity to show another race to the game.

REPLY: See Jindarian Caravans, See Jumokian Pirates.

Ken Burnside said: Which isn't to say the Andros couldn't eliminate them - I think an Intruder group costs more EPs than the entire Chomak economy. (I don't have the CapLog with the F&E Andros in it handy).

Ken Burnside said: It's all a matter of when they eliminate the Chomak; I'd like it to be as late as possible (and if remotely possible, have it not happen at all, though I know that's unlikely...).

REPLY: AND THE HISTORY HAS BEEN WRITTEN, SEE THE BLOODY EXTRACT ABOVE, WHICH YOU WERE GIVEN WHILE YOU WERE HERE. IT IS IN MODULE C5. Frankly, and in all truth, I WOULD have massive re-written your entire history except that all the SSDs had been done by the time I saw the first draft of it, and I did not have the stomach to change all the •••• Crawford Tables to fix it.

Ken Burnside said: And yes, the last paragraph is a change in position on my part.

REPLY: How gracious of you. Of course you are not being gracious, you are trying to start a campaign to 'Save the Chomak', i.e., reverse the already published history in Module C5. Flatly, you do not get to play the 'reasonable designer who invented beautiful flawless and balanced background that Petrick the idiot mucked up'. YOU ARE DONE HERE. I do not want another piece of input from you on the Magellanic Cloud for the rest of recorded history. I am not going to spend the rest of my life defending myself from your spurious, or at the very least highly selective, memory.

I have had enough.

You are BANNED FROM THIS TOPIC, EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY.

If you ever post in this topic, even to reply to this current post, you will be BANNED FROM THE BOARD.

If you ever reply anywhere, I say again ANYWHERE, on this board or in any other forum or venue to any question involving anything to do with Module C5 or any supplement that might be done for C5, unless specifically invited to do so by SVC or myself, you will be BANNED FROM THE UNIVERSE.

If SVC or myself invite you to comment on something, you will limit your comments to the specific item or items only, or YOU WILL BE BANNED FROM THE BOARD.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 05:52 pm: Edit

Ken, you (frankly) have got a lot of nerve.

You botched the Magellanic design twice.

1. We all remember that you were publicly rewriting entire pages of Module E1 while it was still in the mail to the people who bought it!

2. Everybody remembers that you "fully playtested" design collapsed when competent playtesters tried a tactic you had never considered (indeed, you had rejected it as not worth trying).

Then you have the gall to come here and try to spin your screw ups and prove that you had it right and everybody else had it wrong, knowing you had already been proven wrong.

As Petrick said, your participation in any further development or discussion of the Magellanic cloud is no longer necessary, useful, or welcome.

You had your chance. You blew it too many times to get to be the guy who claims to have gotten it right. You are done.

If there is ever a C5A (or C5B, I have use both terms and perhaps C5R as well) you will have NOTHING to do with it, and it will be done by a competent designer who understands how things work. Otherwise, you'll be issuing entire pages of made-up-on-the-spur-of-the-moment rules 24 hours after we ship the product.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 06:00 pm: Edit

The Chomak will NOT have Dyson spheres. That was NEVER approved by me, and it is rejected. The Chomak can be defensive, and defeated, and hanging out in the remote regions running a guerrilla war like the rest of the Mags.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 12:34 pm: Edit

SPP,

Do any of the Magellanic races use the seeker and security skiffs in Module R8? Or are the civilian and miltary pinnaces the Magellanic counter part to the R8 skiffs?

The following is based on the idea that Seltorians make it to the LMC and a nest ship ship survives in the fringes. Could the Seltorian hive/nest ship use either the skiff or pinnace inplace of the PFs in the two rear bays? Docking would follow the rules in (R15.13A) [My suggestion: add 4xtractor beams, to each rear bay, to dock 4 skiffs or pinnaces; this would be a refit with cost X-BPV].

My impression is the Seltorians are not innovators of new technology but are able to adapt exsiting technology to their uses. The pinnaces or skiffs would be used for resource gathering, cargo movement, security operations, and raids.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 04:13 pm: Edit

SVC:

It seems that if a Magellanic supplement for Fed and Empire will ever be on the cards, it will probably need a more detailed set of rules both for the Jindarians, and for the factions which learn from their example (starting with the Jumokians).

One interesting scenario could involve the rise of the Jumokian Pirates, with a Jumokian player establishing asteroid bases, harvesting resources from isolated planets, and launching raids into Eneen territory. The Eneen player would in turn attempt to sweep the border Fringe hexes with what ships they can spare to the task, drive off any commerce raids by the Pirates - and perhaps even move to reconquer Jumok from the forces of the Liberation?

Meanwhile, a Jindarian player tries to walk a fine line between helping out the Jumokian remnants, and avoiding the wrath of the Protectorates.


Such a scenario would help a player get accustomed to the kind of play that will be essential once the Andromedans conquer the Eneen and Baduvai (and again when the Core and the Chomak Cluster are cracked) as well as give an interestign twist to the kind of role one might expect a Jindarian player to bring.


Back to SFB, the important role that the Jindarians play would likely add to the type of ships one could add to a future Magellanic suplement - since it's questionable just how much Jindarian tech seen in the Alpha Octant was ported over to the Cloud by the two caravans, and what range of ships the caravsns would be able to construct (There isn't a lot of data out there on just what ships a Jindy player can 'historically' take in the LMC)


And who would have thought it - the humble Jindarians get to be the lifeline for an entire (pocket) galaxy!


Gary

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 11:07 am: Edit

Gary: I have too many things in line ahead of Magellanic F&E to think about it now. From what I know if Magellanics, the Jindarians don't need more elaborate rules. From what I know of Omega, they're a tiny little place that isn't even on the list of things to be done soon and can pretty much be ignored. Lots of those little one-hex thingies in Omega would never be anything in omega F&E other than a "do not go here hex". Omega isn't that popular, and while we might do a single Omega F&E pack someday, I do not see it (or Magellanic F&E) having the legs to support multiple expansions like alpha-F&E does.

By Michael Lui (Michaellui) on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 01:44 pm: Edit

Yet.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 01:49 pm: Edit

Joseph R Carlson said on Sunday, January 07, 2007: Do any of the Magellanic races use the seeker and security skiffs in Module R8? Or are the civilian and miltary pinnaces the Magellanic counter part to the R8 skiffs?

REPLY: I honestly do not know. Seeker and Security Skiffs make sense for any colony once you add them to the game (assuming the colony is advanced enough to be able to support them), but the Magellanic Cloud is the Magellanic Cloud. It clearly will operate under its own set of rules post contact with the Milky Way. A case could be made that Skiffs were never developed because the Pinnaces already existed and filled the role.

Joseph R Carlson said on Sunday, January 07, 2007: The following is based on the idea that Seltorians make it to the LMC and a nest ship ship survives in the fringes. Could the Seltorian hive/nest ship use either the skiff or pinnace inplace of the PFs in the two rear bays? Docking would follow the rules in (R15.13A) [My suggestion: add 4xtractor beams, to each rear bay, to dock 4 skiffs or pinnaces; this would be a refit with cost X-BPV].

REPLY: You are getting into the question of whether or not the Seltorians would have seen any real combat value in them. I honestly (imagining such an event) cannot see the Seltorians adopting Pinnaces, and really do not want to mess with the game background more by allowing Pinnaces to function even more like PFs. (I can see the Seltorians perhaps using them as cargo carriers if they felt it was not possible to keep the Hive/Nest ship near a source of raw materials. But by the same token in such a case, I would imagine the ship would build the Tholian Home Galaxy Equivalent of Freighters rather than use diminuitive Pinnaces (not something they needed to do in our own Galaxy).

Joseph R Carlson said on Sunday, January 07, 2007: My impression is the Seltorians are not innovators of new technology but are able to adapt exsiting technology to their uses. The pinnaces or skiffs would be used for resource gathering, cargo movement, security operations, and raids.

REPLY: Personally, from a Seltorian Standpoint, I do not particularly see Pinnaces as useful militarily useful. And I do not think I would devote the resources of a "Tribunal" to Skiffs.

==================================================

Gary Carney said on Sunday, January 07, 2007: It seems that if a Magellanic supplement for Fed and Empire will ever be on the cards, it will probably need a more detailed set of rules both for the Jindarians, and for the factions which learn from their example (starting with the Jumokians).

REPLY: Likely it will deal with the Andromedan Conquest first, and that has to wait until the Andromedans are introduced formally (not in playtest version as they are now) into that Game Set. Until that is done, even conjecturing is a waste of effort. Once the Andromedan Conquest rules are done, that will set the stage to do early years (pre-Andromedan) operations within the cloud.

Gary Carney said on Sunday, January 07, 2007: One interesting scenario could involve the rise of the Jumokian Pirates, with a Jumokian player establishing asteroid bases, harvesting resources from isolated planets, and launching raids into Eneen territory. The Eneen player would in turn attempt to sweep the border Fringe hexes with what ships they can spare to the task, drive off any commerce raids by the Pirates - and perhaps even move to reconquer Jumok from the forces of the Liberation?

REPLY: See above.

Gary Carney said on Sunday, January 07, 2007: Meanwhile, a Jindarian player tries to walk a fine line between helping out the Jumokian remnants, and avoiding the wrath of the Protectorates.

REPLY: See above.

Gary Carney said on Sunday, January 07, 2007: Such a scenario would help a player get accustomed to the kind of play that will be essential once the Andromedans conquer the Eneen and Baduvai (and again when the Core and the Chomak Cluster are cracked) as well as give an interestign twist to the kind of role one might expect a Jindarian player to bring.

REPLY: See above.

Gary Carney said on Sunday, January 07, 2007: Back to SFB, the important role that the Jindarians play would likely add to the type of ships one could add to a future Magellanic suplement - since it's questionable just how much Jindarian tech seen in the Alpha Octant was ported over to the Cloud by the two caravans, and what range of ships the caravsns would be able to construct (There isn't a lot of data out there on just what ships a Jindy player can 'historically' take in the LMC)

REPLY: Gary, I am not trying to be offensive or sarcastic, honestly. The following question is only conversational-curiousity in tone; Have you read the rules? The reason I ask is (MS1.1121) already says: "The Jindarians operate under many of the same conditions described for them in the Milky Way Galaxy in (R16.1F). The two Jindarian Caravans of the LMC never developed fighter technology, PFs, or X-ships." And (MS1.25) says "JINDARIANS: Jindarians in the LMC are under the restrictions specified in (R16.0) for their fleet deployments. See (MS1.1121) for restrictions on Jindarian technologies in the LMC." That pretty much says no fighters (hence no bombers), no carriers, no carrier escorts, no PF tenders, no PFs, no Interceptors. They are Jindarians, so they do have Warp-Augmented Rail Guns, phasers, Milky Way Galaxy Fire Control, Anti-Transporter Fields, and (however weak on their asteroid ships) Milky Way Style Shields. That does not mean that the Magallanic Ships are going to use any of that technology (they obviously did not prior to Contact with the Milky Way).

Gary Carney said on Sunday, January 07, 2007: And who would have thought it - the humble Jindarians get to be the lifeline for an entire (pocket) galaxy!

REPLY: They and the Jumokians had to carry the ball because the Chomak as woven into Magellanic History could not. As noted, as much as Ken Burnside wanted the Andromedans to ignore the Chomak, it simply was not reasonable. And Ken was told that while he was here. If not for the Crawford Tables I would probably have shifted much of Magellanic History back twenty or so years. Changing all the Crawford Tables would have run the risk (because of all the files that would have to have been open) of the computer crashing. Crashing is not in an of itself a bad thing (well . . . not that bad), but when the SSD program crashes it has a habit of occasionaly "destroying" the SSD you had open. This forces you to stop everything and rebuild the SSD. Then you have the problem that Pagemaker, particularly when you are replacing and updating multiple pages (in this case, every single page in the whole SSD book) has a bad habit of simply stopping updating, and not telling you it has done so, all of which (together with my failing eye-sight) increases the overall error rate. (Causes an SSD of a Destroyer that is converted to a scout destroyer to be published with a disruptor table still on it while the ship has no disruptors because I forgot to delete the disruptor table when I was rebuilding the SSD after it was destroyed in a crash. Or for various Crawford boxes to be "wrong" because Page Maker did not update the SSDs. Etc.) And, as noted, I just did not have the stomache for it.

This is not to say that Tos Crawford was wrong to champion them, or even that I am necessarilly actually in real life angry that he did. But it does have a chilling effect on making major changes to year in service dates when a large number of SSDs is involved.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 03:01 pm: Edit

To clarify some other things.

Gary Carney did not start the explosion. There was a confusion in that the map he used did not at any point say that the numbers were "economic points". It simply said:

Chomak:

Provinces: 4 (MY NOTE: Okay, four provinces, but I could not see how the four provinces were supposed to be set up as it looked like the area of space represented was standard Fed and Emp provinces. We now know that Gary Carney's Legend was referring to economic points for two provinces, but again it did not say anywhere that the table was listing the economic points rather than the number of provinces.)

Dyson Spheres: 40 (MY NOTE: The use of the term "sphereS", i.e., a plural reference followed by the number 40 had an inevitable reaction.)

Total: 44 (MY NOTE: Perhaps this should have been a clue that economci points were being referred to, but at this juncture it was taken simply as a total of the things listed, i.e., four provinces and forty Dyson Spheres.)

Baduvai:

Provinces: 22

Planets: 19 (MY NOTE: Again, not listed as economic points.)

I will not repeat the rest of the list as I only want to explain where the confusion on that score came from. And it was simple confusion caused by an assumption (and we all know what happens when assumptions are made). In this case, an assumption that it would be readily apparent that the numbers were economic points, so nothing specific was said to indicate that that was what they were.

As to the Chomak.

There are two competing Factors here.

One Factor is existing game background (i.e., the history of the Andromedan Invasion). That background very specifically states that the Andromedans invaded the Milky Way, were repelled, and eventually the Alpha Sector launched an offensive that reached the Magellanic Cloud and destroyed the Desecrator.

The other Factor is Ken Burnside's Vision.

Ken sold us the Magellanic Cloud on a number of levels, but for purposes of this I am only going to dwell on the Background.

The Background was that Module C5 would be the races that the Andromedans defeated on their way to invade the Milky Way. This meant (to ADB, Inc.) that these races would be conquered, and eventually liberated when Operation Unity arrived. This was not a problem on any level. Andromedan losses during their Conquest of the Cloud could be assigned to The Cloud (by back dating Andromedan Arrival in the Cloud as earlier than it was first believed) without otherwise changing the History of the Andromedan Invasion (just as a second "column" of that invasion into the Omega Sector was added). But it did mean that the Magellanic Cloud HAD TO BE CONQUERED. No matter how heroic the defenders were, their story had to be (in so far as opposing the Andromedans) one of ultimate failure. Then liberation leading to rebirth. Ken got to Destroy a Desecrator (and cripple a second), for example (note, previously unknown Andromedan losses).

At that point, the schism begins.

From our standpoint, there was no way the Andromedans could move onto the Milky Way if their "foward base" (from their own Galaxy) was not secure. This did not mean that every last ship in the Magellanic Cloud was tracked down and destroyed, but it did mean that they were dispersed, that no major non-Andromedan logistics nodes remained operational, and that minimal security forces would suffice to keep things in hand (say a pair of Intruders and four or so Conquistadors as a standard mothership garrison for the entire cloud, occasionally supplemented for "special operations" by a newly arrived Dominator or one that has returned from the Milky Way for major repairs or what not).

If the Chomak survived with the history that Ken had written, the Andromedans would have had to leave major forces (a fleet or three) in the Cloud to watch the Chomak, and to periodically reinforce that fleet. Consider 22 Economic points (half the 44 stated) over just twenty turns is 440 economic points, or put another way, 55 cruisers added to whatever the Chomak Starting fleet was. It would have also forced the repair of the Second Desecrator because the Chomak would be a threat to attack the one that was eventually destroyed by "Unity".

Once the background (Ken's History) established that the Chomak were capable of operating independently in the Magellanic Cloud (to include having the logistical capability to circumnavigate the circumfrence of the cloud), had operated in the Cloud in the past, and even sent a task force that (in Ken's version) "meandered" through Andromedan Controlled space, they became a presence the Andromedans could not ignore. Add to that their better technology than the rest of the Cloud and . . . well they had to go.

Ken's vision became one of rampaging squadrons of intact Magellanic forces tieing down Andromedan forces in the Cloud, ultimately being the cause of victory. Ken is not alone in this conceit. There are players who love the Lyran Democratic Republic, for example, who insist that the fall of the LDR inflicted such losses on the Andromedans that it was the LDR's Heroic Defense that caused the Andromedan Defeat. The Andromedans never recovered from the losses they took destroying the LDR. (Our history says that the Fall of the LDR was a major factor in the Andromedan Defeat, but it was no the losses the LDR caused, but the fact that the LDR's destruction was what drove all the other races into a common anti-Andromedan alliance, something that did not exist prior to the LDR's destruction.)

Ken was told that, to his face, while he was here. The Conquest of the Chomak was written into Module C5 while he was here. He had opportunity then to convince us that the Chomak should survive (or at least that their fate should not be decided in Module C5) and repel all Andromedan attempts at Conquest. For him to try to reopen a decision already published as if no final decision had been made was simply a final straw, and I regret that the detonation that resulted was in a public forum.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 06:08 pm: Edit

Are there plans to add the Chomak and other races to "fill out" the Magellanics?

And NO, I am not trying to stir up anything, I just got the module and would be interested in completing it...

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 06:12 pm: Edit

In theory that would go into C5A (also variously called C5B and C5R). That product is being considered for the "May 2007 batch" although competition is fierce. If not selected, it would be in the consideration poll for the "May 2008" batch.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 07:25 pm: Edit

Michael C. Grafton:

No one thinks you are trying to stir up anything with a legitimate question. The Chomak are very specifically mentioned in the product, and are going to be a challenge to do because they need to be tough enough to hold off the Andromedans for a while. They will obviously be in the same product as the Yrol Septs (also in mentioned in Module C5). There might be a few more ships for some of the other races in such a product (what those ships are, I do not know). There could also be some "metal ships" for the Jindarians in the Cloud that would be different from those in our own Galaxy (no reason to do any if they are not in some way different). I do not think a "Seltorian" presence necessarilly requires any new Seltorian SSDs, nor would a "Tholian Refugee" presence (both of which might be "blips", i.e., simply something that appeared for a decade or so until they passed through the Cloud and out the other side).

But other than wanting to add the Chomak and the Yrol Septs, nothing is written in stone about what will be in the next Magellanic Cloud product.