Stephen E. Parrish:

That is not an unreasonable supposition, and would certainly help explain why the Chomak did not move out and dominate the rest of the Cloud. As Ken Created them (background that is woven into the existing history). One can see their interferring with the Eneen as trying to create a balance between the Eneen and the Baduvai such that the two dominate powers in the Cloud would stalemate each other, rather than one coming to completely dominate the Cloud and then (looking for new worlds to conquer) turn on them. That is not out of bounds.

It does not change the concept that from the Chomak Standpoint the successful conquest of the Cloud by the Andromedans would look like the Andromedans would come for them next flaws in the idea that the Chomak would do nothing. (Why would the Chomak not think that since there is no way they could have known that the Invaders would move on to the Milky Way as opposed to hopping the shorter distance to attack them.)

The Chomak's demonstrated capabilities to send squadrons into the Magellanic Cloud outside of the normal supply constraints (the history said that one such Squadron circumscribed the fringe in Y122, during which time they made contact with the Baduvai). Also remember that a Chomak Squadron "intruded" (change from the original proposed text of "meandered") into Andromedan Controlled areas of the Cloud during a three year period. The Eneen and Baduvai had changed base to within the Maghadim core region six years before this intrusion. Smack dab in the middle of this Chomak intrusion was the first Andromedan attempt to breach the core radiation barrier. Factor that into Andromedan decision cycles. (Might the Chomak been trying to weaken the Andrmedan attack on the Core by diverting forces to oppose them?)

While the Chomak then withdrew back into their space, and did not make an (apparently, for all we know the Andromedans had a fortified line facing Chomak Space at the time, and the Chomak effort was rebuffed) effort to intervene twenty years later when the Andromedans did successfully breach the Core, they existed as a constant threat. Their ability to cut loose from "normal lines of communication", i.e., move further than supply limits in Federation and Empire, meant that they could turn the flank of any Andromedan defense, and strike from any direction into the cloud to reach the Desecrators.

They had to go. The center of their strength had to be eliminated.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 03:11 pm: Edit

Gary Carney:

Module C5, Page #67, rule number (MS1.29). This provides for four (4) Omega races to interact with the Cloud. One of these is the Loriyill, so please do not assume you are adding to canon at this juncture.

Note also that while four Omega races were cited as having sent at least one ship (Iridani, Bolosco, Souldra, and Loriyill), and scenarios involving intrusions by these races at various times are possible (the Souldra scenario for example), this does not mean that any of these races is going to have a large or permanent presence in the Cloud. It does mean that at this juncture no other Omega race is being considered for, or will be accepted at this time, as being an intruder into the Magellanic Cloud.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 06:21 pm: Edit

SPP:

I was not assuming any such thing - I was drawing on precisely that entry in C5 (as well as the precedent given in Captain's Log) when considering a possible purpose - or side-effect - of a Loriyill visit to the Cloud.

And even then, there need not have been a long-term Loriyill presence in the outlined scenario - even just one or two encounters could be sufficient (indeed, if the Chomak were to attach a sense of mystery to the Loriyill, the fewer solid encounters the better!).

And when it comes to other races, I actually included an Iridani-related scenario in a prior FC proposal to SVC.

However, I am not going to start suggesting that the Maesrons or Alunda or any other Omega race should be introduced to the LMC - and nor would I have intended to.


Gary

By Stephen E. Parrish (Parrish) on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 09:44 pm: Edit

SPP

I think you lay it all out well. The Chomak did seem to have unusual abilities to supply that might go along with being an older more advanced civilization. Of course, in the end they are crushed too. They might make the Andromedans pay a heavy price though.

By Stephen E. Parrish (Parrish) on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 10:03 pm: Edit

Actually, the things you suggest: the Chomak trying to draw Andromedan strength from the assault on the core, an Andromedan defense line, and Chomak attempts to flank the line, might make for some interesting scenarios.

By Hugh Bishop (Wildman) on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 01:05 am: Edit

It seems to me that the Chomak may have forgotten how to fight, even with their advanced tech. Having lived in isolation for more than seven thousand years their leadership skills were probably rusty and battle philosophies; obsolete. The Andros after adjusting to the new tech, took it to them. The Chomak may have been a bit arrogant or overconfident and bit off more than they were ready for. Isolation, even if idyllic, does have its failings.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 10:29 am: Edit

How about this: The Chomak were a huge threat to the Adnros, but there was a flaw in their Dyson Sphere design that trapped in too much radiation and cause the star to nova. As they built both spheres about the same time, they lost both of them within a few months. Without their home "worlds", their economy collapses within a year ... and they stop being a threat to anyone.


Garth L. Getgen

By Stephen E. Parrish (Parrish) on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 11:23 am: Edit

Garth--SVC has already ruled that the Chomak don't have Dyson spheres.

Hugh--The Chomak may have been a bit rusty, but the time lines shows them doing some fighting.

Anyway, it seems to me that it would be more interesting if the Chomak did fight some against the LMC powers to keep the balance of power even, and then went down after a heck of a fight against the Andromedans, perhaps beaten by numbers. There doesn't seem to be much point in SFB to have a race if it dosen't fight a lot against various enemies.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 06:14 pm: Edit

Gary Carney:

My apologies, but I would also request that mayhap a bit more effort to express your suggestions in a manner that indicates that you are drawing from existing material, rather than one that suggests you are proposing something entirely new?

Your message in re the loriyill said:

"And since we know the Souldra were in the LMC at one point (according to CL35), maybe a Loriyill scout was around some time or other to stir the pot further? (The Loriyill aren't ascended beings themselves - apparently - but their 'magic' tech could be intriguing for the Chomak to consider.)"

That text reads only as "I am proposing that the Loriyill also visited the cloud thus creating another line of thought for the Chomak in re my larger proposal that they are trying to ascend."

There was nothing in that text that noted the rules already say some Loriyill did intrude into the cloud. It reads as a follow-on to the Souldra-Magellanic scenario that appeared in Captain's Log #35 of your own invention without reference to Module C5 rules.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 06:23 pm: Edit

Someone asked about Chomak Technology. We do have what Ken left us (three variations of one ship(Cruiser) design and weapon rules for the Chomak and Yrol Septs (no Yrol SSDs that I can find).

With more than 7,000 years of history to work with (and more than that from the standpoint that what is written indicates they were a capable spacefaring race prior to the official start of their 7,000 year history), we are almost going to have to have a history of rises and falls, dark ages, and enlightenment to cover that much time. What the Chomak are, when the Andromedans arrive, is not finalized, but energy beings and ascended beings are not practical. Something that may kill the regular Magellanic Races and be a challenge for the Andromedans, perhaps. But I am not too wild about that (what would be the point in playing them if the ony opponent they have for most of the game history is something one of their Police Cutters destroys an entire fleet of, for example). I am somewhat leanding towards the concept (no, I am not committed, it is a thought process) of the Chomak having lost the ability to build ships, and the ships they have are a finite number. Maybe they have a few extras in "mothballs" so to speak. The loss of any one ship is a catastrophe.

I do not want them to be like the Drex.

And I do not want them to be unplayable.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 07:06 pm: Edit

Parrish,

I see that now. I hadn't read thru the entire thread when I posted that.


Garth L. Getgen

By Stephen E. Parrish (Parrish) on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 07:46 pm: Edit

SPP

You are in charge of course, but IMO having the Chomak not have the ability to build ships is not a good idea. There are at least three reasons for this.

1). On page 7 of the rules, year 185, its says that the Andromedans destroyed the Chomak fleet production facilities. Thus it seems to be already part of the established history that they can build ships.

2). I find it hard to understand how they could have the ability to send ships all over the LMC and not have at least some ship production ability.

3). Not being able to build ships would make the Chomak extremely cautious, and thus less fun to play.

I can understand that the Chomak have limited ship building ability. One could suppose that they are an old and declining race, and/or that they are geared many toward research and exploration and less toward combat. My proposal that the Chomak have no desire to conquer and rule other races would go with that. Also, if they explore other galaxies (mainly ours) it could help show why they developed the ability to go long distances with no supply lines.

I agree that they should not be too advanced. I was thinking more of general war ships compared to early years, or first generation X ships compared to general war ships--if that. I was thinking mainly along the lines of the Chomak having a fairly small but high quality fleet.

Just my thoughts.

By Jim Cummins (Jimcummins) on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 10:12 pm: Edit

The Chomak could have devised a mobile fabrication ship to keep a fleet supplied/repaired while on the move. To provide the means for their extended missions, and when the Andro's finally killed the one in the incursion fleet toward the end of their mission, the remaining warships were out of supply and easily removed. Perhaps the Andro's were unable to find the Chomak incursion fleet simply because it was highly mobile and always in supply. Or they thought it was being supplied through a RTN like theirs, and it never occurred to them it was simply a self supplied fleet. Their problem was the Andro's couldn't figure out how they did it.

A ship like this could help the resistance harass the Andro's until operation unity arrives and save the day.

As for the rest of the Chomak, it is possible be they were an extremely defensive race, with only a few offensive rebels, 1 who lead the fleet elements against the Eneen, the other against the Andro's. The rest stayed put and were crushed by the Andro assault.

No great combat abilities, but amazing logistics which allowed the Chomak force to outmanoeuvre and stop the Eneen, and evade the Andro's fleet for a couple of years, makes me think of Hannibal roaming the Italian peninsula. But instead of being fearsome in combat, just a highly mobile force.

By Hugh Bishop (Wildman) on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 01:25 am: Edit

How about this. The Chomak contracted some sort of disease, that was slowly killing them or sterilizing them. This is the reason they left the region they originally from and settled in the Fringe of the LMC, sort of like an interstellar leper colony. In order to preserve the race and research a cure, they placed the majority of the populace in stasis and rotated "watchers" at various intervals of centuries. These "watchers" numbered in the thosands and could maintain a task force or two of warships and research vessels. The monolithic technology they possesed maintained itself but was difficult to fully activate and would need a much larger awakened population to return to full functionality. Moreover the "awakening process was lenghthy and delicate. When the Chomak realized the Andro threat they had discovered a treatment "not a cure" for their condition, but needed to have access to certain areas of the LMC to acquire the right ingrediants. So they began to awaken more of their people and de-mothball more of their ships and reactivate more of their Spheres, but could not afford to wait until a suffiecient force was ready before they intervened against the Andros. So it then becomes a race to see if they can get enough ships activated and bolster the other LMC races effectively to halt the Andros before the invaders put the hammer down.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 01:25 pm: Edit

I suggested up-thread a special type of shielding. Maybe this could be an ESG-like third shield generator. This device would provides limited protection against mass drivers and boson drills (limit how much power can be put into the third shield generator to 2 points); provides 2 points of ECCM; reduces the Andromedan's displacement success against ship with this device.

This third shield generator is difficult to produce and can only be istalled on purpose built ships (consider it an X-technology heavy weapon). Later the Chomaks build DWs and CWs, which can't have the third shield generator. So the number of ships with it decrease.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 02:01 pm: Edit

It's funny that I mentioned the Iridani scenario in my previous post - since if there were to be one faction in the Omega upplements who could be a useful comparison, it would be those dauntless space-otters!

Both the Iridani Kingdom and the Chomak Community are based in relatively small star clusters, at a remove from the larger regions they are associated with. (the Iridani are much farther from the Milky Way than the Chomak are from the main LMC regions, but in both cases the distance is sufficient to deter non-Andro enemies.)

Both have histories of sending very long-range expeditions to more distant regions - and the data we have on the renowned Quests could be very instructive, while also hinting at the differences between Chomak and Iridani society.

The Questers built up their fleet based on a modular design, which allows idivdual ships to be outfitted for the required task (such as Cluster defence, fulfilling the terms of a specific Quest or other , and so forth). Optional modules include an Assembly module, for constructing fighters while on a Quest, and a Repair module for fixing ships away from home. (Also, Iridani Quests often relied on Supply Docks, set up with the permission of the local government - but the need to pierce the Galactic Energy Barrier made these bases more relevant to the Iridani.)

However, the Chomak might well have a very different political system to the Iridani. While the feudal nature of Iridani society leads to the impetus to build the likes of Brigantines (DNs) and Men-O-War (BBs) - as much as status symbols for the King and the mot powerful Dukes as a command ship for the largest Quests (including, approprately enough, the Grand Quest to liberate the Cluster from the Andromedans - helped perhaps by the higher CR available to the Iridani than anywhere in Omega outside the FRA) - the Chomak would perhaps have seen such extravagance as massively wasteful, and while according to C5 the Chomak have blueprints for several SC2 ships, they seem not to hace built any. (tbc)

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 02:22 pm: Edit

(continued - my LifeDrive has a limit in the post sizes I can enter...)

Perhaps the Chomak only built one or two larger ships at all, and even they could have been in response to the Andromedan threat.

Since the Chomak need not pander to the whims of a feudal nobility, they could have foregone the vast range of modular design seen in Iridani ships. Also, a more centrally-organised Community would set up long-range expeditions to the resy of the LMC (and perhaps the Milky Way - maybe they encountered the Loriyill and Chlorophons centuries before other Omega races deveoped FTL travel?) but as part of a government-sanctioned long-termbplan, not at the whim of some dishonoured noble or other.

Perhaps they built two styles of ship - one type, a Chomak Navy, stayed in the Cluster for local defence (and fought the Andromedans ), while the other type of ships, a Chomak Expeditionary Force, was built from the keel up for long-range exploration (incorporating the kind of systems that Iridani ships would use modules for - such as cargo, repair etc.)

And when it comes to writing 'visit' scenarios (such as Iridani or Loriyill to the LMC), we could see Chomak Expeditions to Alpha, Omega, the Xorkaelians - maybe even to Triangulum and M81! In fact, perhaps an ill-fated trip to Andromeda circa Y-400 drew the Invaders' attention to thee Cloud in the first place...


Gary

By Stephen E. Parrish (Parrish) on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 02:54 pm: Edit

Gary Carney--You and I seem to be thinking along the same lines. Your suggestion of two styles of ships: one for exploration and trade, with an ability to go long distances without supply lines, and another force for defense sounds good. Being semi-isolated, the Chomak only had a limited ship production ability-that's all they thought they needed. Until the Andromedans showed up, and then they threw everything they had at the invaders. Not enough, alas.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 05:19 pm: Edit

On the subject of Loriyill and Souldra activity in the LMC - perhaps the War which the two races fought centuries ago (c. Y-500?) could be tied into the Cloud, and give the Chomak another significant conflict about which scenarios could be generated.

Picture this:

The previous War between the Souldra and Loriyill swept across Omega, bringing low a number of empires which arose, expanded and fell centuries before the first ships left orbit of the three Maesron homeworlds. While the Souldra could make quick work of many less advanced empires, the Loriyill Homestars were an impregnable bastion, and eventually the tide turned against the dark matter beings.

However, while one portion of the remnant Souldra force set out to hide in the Void between the Alpha and Omega Octants, another force prepared to take a gamble. Scout ships had already been sent to the Cloud in order to gather intelligence on the inhabitants, and as a possible springboard for operations against more far-flung regions of the Galaxy. (enough Dark Matter patches existed beyond the Galactic energy barrier for the Souldra to patch together enough Caches to support movement to and from the LMC - without which their ships would starve less than halfway across.)

A significant force left our galaxy in Y-502 and followed the path of Caches towards the LMC, and descended upon the region of the Cloud which would one day become the Eneen-Baduvai Line. Unwilling to let their enemies escape unmolested, a task force of Loriyill warships set out in pursuit in Y-500.

In the Cloud proper, four minor interstellar empires had jockeyed for power in the region extending from the Yrol Nebula to the Jumokian homeworld, while the Chomak, in one of their less isolationist eras (and in a bid to maintain a balance of power in the LMC) occupied the northern Cloud, and sent squadrons of the Expeditionary Force to protect pre-spaceflight worlds, such as Jumok, H'Gar and Baduvai, from exploitation. (Perhaps the Chomak at the time followed an equivalent of the Prime Directive).

When the Souldra descended, they fell upon the minor empires and crushed them one by one, draining their worlds of life, while engaging in fierce combat with Chomak task forces. The Expeditions attempted to hold the Souldra back long enough for the Navy to send reinforcements, hoping that the regular fleet would be able to turn the tide.

As part of this, the dreadnought Community - one of only two SC2 ships ever built by the Chomak (the second built in the years of the Andromedan War) - was commissioned, and its superior flag command capabilities placed it at the core of the Navy battle group sent to fight the Souldra attack. This group set out in Y-498, by which time the four minor races were already defeated.

However, the Loriyill force had arrived the previous year, and was aiding the Expedition fleet in engaging the Souldra, buying the Navy time to respond. (Also, the Loriyill had managed to destroy the Caches linking the Cloud to the Galaxy, cutting off the escapees's route home.)

The decisive battle took place in Y-497 at H'Gar, where a combined force of Navy, Expedition and Loriyill ships crushed the bulk of the Souldra armada, and saving the indigenous peoples on the world below from annihilation. (H'Garran myths would tell of a great 'dance of light and darkness' in the skies above their world, which bemused the Baduvai xenologists sent to examine their culture centuries later.)

Together, the Chomak and Loriyill had defeated the Souldra, but were newer quite sure if they had found all of their enemies' hidden Caches.

The Loriyill expedition to the Cloud had come at a price, however - some of the forces which were to scour the Void had been sent to the LMC instead, and the Black Sun, which would serve as the Souldra refuge in their long preparation for a renewed war, was undetected. The Loriyill would eventually regret not being able to finish the Souldra off when they had the chance - and their refusal to engage the Andromedans post-Y200 might in part be explained as due to their single-minded determination not to repeat their mistake.

For the Chomak, the resources expended in fighting the War overstretched their ability to hold the northern Cloud - and the four minor empires were gone, in any event. Soon the Chomak withdrew once again to their home Cluster, sending occasional scouts to observe the less advanced worlds they had one garrisoned.


How is that?


Gary

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 06:09 pm: Edit

Gary Carney:

No.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 08:12 pm: Edit

To the Loriyill War idea, to the Iridani comparison, to the Navy/Expedition divide, to the possibility of the Chomak going to Alpha/Omega/Xorks/Triangulum/M81/M31/etc, or to all of the above?


Gary

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 08:15 pm: Edit

Chomak did not go anywhere.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 08:29 pm: Edit

So would the squadrons sent to the rest of the LMC be drawn from the regular fleet, or could the Navy/Expedition distinction still be a possibility?

After all, the regular fleet would not need the same support equipment that the far-ranging squadrons would need, in terms of taking the equivalent of Iridani Support or Assembly modules.


Gary

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 10:43 pm: Edit

One other thing - I don't see anything in C5 about it, but is there a list of pre-existing space monsters which were to be found, at one time or another, out in the LMC - and would there be scope for a new Cloud-specific monster?


Gary

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 11:44 pm: Edit

Kirks cloud monster?