Maybe you should read the new ST: Titan novel 'The Red King' - I don't think that particular entity would be suitable for the SFU LMC, but an interesting book nonetheless.

And it's funny how the Neyel empire reminds me of the Eneen...


Gary

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 11:00 am: Edit

Gary Carney:

No to everything in your January 14, 2007 - 05:19 pm.

Thanks, but no thanks.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 12:01 pm: Edit

To Everyone:

I am going to have to apologize for my own timidity.

I tried very much to work within what Ken Burnside's Vision was on several items. One of them was that I did not change the Chomak history as it was embedded in the time line. I really, really, really, should have changed the start date for the Chomak. More than 7,000 years of space capability now has to be explained somehow. (Not a suprise here, I have noted this in previous posts above.)

It may be my own limitations, but I cannot see how it is possible to make the Chomak "playable" without their history being plagued by disaster. With 7,000 plus years of deveopment, their ships would seem like "magic" compared to everyone else's ships. Consider one of us going back just 4,000 years with just a modern rifle platoon and think how long the strongest military force of the period would last against us. Then realize how much technology has taken off in just the last few hundred years.

The Chomak interact with the rest of the Cloud. They at least did so for the last few hundred years. Having them "suddenly wake up" due to the Andromedans is not an option to me.

And allowing them unfettered (nothing goes wrong) development for 7.000 years is also a problem.

At this juncture, I am leaning more towards a "recen recovery". That perhaps the Chomak at one point dominated all of the Cloud, and collapsed say a thousand years ago. The Baduvai and Eneen would have no extant record of them (were ignored by the Chomak as lacking the technology to then be useful). The Maghadim were, of course, not contacted because the Chomak did not cross the radiation barrier. The Chomak become something of "The Old Kings" for the Cloud, except they never left, and never imposed as heavy a hand as the Old Kings did on the Klingons. The War that was part of the Chomak collapse destroyed the extant civilizations (maybe the Yrol are all that remain). Maybe the Chomak are only now (in the last 150 years) returning.

Anyway, somethig.

But ascended beings, or near ascended beings, or energy beings, or anything of that sort is right out.

By Jon Berry (Laz_Longsmith) on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 12:28 pm: Edit

To work within that idea of a recent 'die down' for the Chomak, perhaps a civil war of some sort? It doesn't matter how good your ships are, if you're fighting yourself, and would save on having to come up with a new race for the Chomak to fight against.

--
JonB

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 12:34 pm: Edit

Perhaps the War that tore the old Chomak empire apart was as much a civil war as it was inolving external factions.

Say that the Community that we see in the contemporary Cloud was a democratic, relatively paifist government, that overthrew a more authoritarian regime in the two Cluster povinces. The imperial government, seeking to crush dissent, set out to reconquer the home Cluster - while the Community promised autonomy to the Yrol and whoever else was around at the time (perhaps the ancestors of the Core race that eventually got crushed by the Maghadim?), and exported revolution to as many other imperial provinces as they could.

The resulting conflict devastated the LMC, and when it was over the Community was left to rebuild the home Cluster (and keeping to its promise of foreswearing aggression against other races), the Yrol were independent, but had lost most of their industrial base (perhaps this drew them to attempt domestication of the Nebula's space creatures?) and the race in the Core were swept from the stars - and by the time they re-emerged, they were locked in a mortal struggle with the early Maghadim.

(ironically, that could leave an opening for the other Core race, but their ship types would be reversed - their 'modern' designs would have fought the Last Great Chomak War, while their 'early years' ships would be the tech they had rebuilt up to when the Maghadim War broke out.)


Gary

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 12:38 pm: Edit

Jon Berry:

Sorry I was not clear, but that is pretty much my assumption, i.e., a collapse. I am not real wild about plagues taking out the Chomak, or them being mostly in suspended animation as one poster proposed. I can see periods where the Chomak were aggressive imperialists, and periods when they were introspective. But I do not want their technology to be "magic". I want them to be playable, and with 7,000 years, that reads to me periods of expansion and internal collapse (civil war being a cause of internal collapse).

Does not mean in the period of modern history that the Chomak are "Villains". They could very well by that time be friendly to the new Magellanic powers, looking back over their own history.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 12:57 pm: Edit

One thing which would be important to note is just how quickly Chomak technology takes to develop, without external influences/rivals.

Without the race for new tech seen in Alpha (or even in Omega), and without the Chomak attempting long-range exploration of other galaxies (which I had hoped could be an option), it might take centuries longer than seen elsewhere for the Chomak to figure out Tactical Warp, or in improving EY warp to a modern speed-30 level.

Perhaps the NTW engines they built were too short-ranged and unreliable for the Chomak to be able to cross the Fringe,and the lack of external influence kept them at this TL for a few thousand years. Also, even when TW does get developed, if all they need is to fight space monsters, perhaps their EY ships would be under-gunned and under-powered compared to others, and take longer to travel across the Fringe.

(Those last few ideas were based on something SVC told me about another corner of the universe he was working on - and even there one sees a number of often-rival governments, rather than just the one...)

So, one could set a shorter timeframe for a warp-era Chomak civilization, and only pick up the pace once rival star-faring factions enter the scene.

Perhaps the seeds of the empire, and of the modern Community, were sown with the dawn of TW - prior to this, the Chomak had lived in a democratic society, but when TW opened the door to the rest of the cloud, a faction of imperialists used the new technology to declare an empire and subjugate other races in the LMC - which led to a series of increasingly bitter uprisings, culminating in the rise of the modern Community in the Cluster and the onset of the last (and most devastating) civil war.


Gary

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 01:12 pm: Edit

How about the Chomak's wiped out the extra-galactic race that built the Juggernaughts around Y-50 (or so) and then collapsed afterwards and it took 200 yrs for themselves to really get their Empire back up to full speed.

I'm sure SVC's just looking for more Juggernaught seeds....

By Jeff Laikind (J_Laikind) on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 01:34 pm: Edit

suspended animation
That's something that I was going to suggest as a possibility. Also known as In case of war, break glass.

What if the Chomak reached a certain military level, and stopped for philosophical reasons. However, warships were maintained in mothballs and full crews were kept in suspended animation. Any member of the race with military tendencies would quickly find themselves drafted into the next set of suspendees.

The Chomak would keep a small force on patrol, and activate ships in an emergency, generally keeping other races far enough away that there would be time to activate defense ships.

The Andros, though, would get around this by setting up a string of SatBases in extra-galactic space. This would allow an end around, getting Dominators into the capital faster than expected. The Dominators would then destroy the mothballed ships, and effectively knock the Chomak out of contention.

Or, not.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 01:38 pm: Edit

SPP,

In (MA1.0) it says "The Lesser Magellanic Cloud's gravitational field has only recently captured the small cluster they [Chomak] call home.

How recent is "recently"? Could the Chomak from Y -7240 to say Y -500 been to far away to be incontact with the LMC? "Much of the History of the LMC comes from the Chomak"? That timeline starts Y -112.

The rise and fall cycles (civil wars) and their isolation could have depleted the star cluster's resources to build ships. The Chomak out of a need to survive developed: long-range ships to reach the LMC; capability to move bulk cargos long distances.

The Chomak don't seem all that imperialistic. They withdraw from the rest of the LMC for unknow reasons in Y67. The Chomak don't appear in the timeline again until Y163. By Y185 they are overrun by the Andromedans. During the "hundred year" mystery period perhaps the Chomak were trying to reach the Greater magellanic Cloud.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 01:46 pm: Edit

Scott:

Or how about this - the Juggernauts could have been built by the empire itself!

Extrapolating on my earlier post, perhaps the imperial government sought a means of consolidating its power, a potent symbol of its might, and a means of testing the waters in the Milky Way.

So, using resources plundered from the Cloud, the empire builds the first primitive Juggys, and uses them to put down rebellions, punish offending worlds from space, and so forth.

In the decades leading up to the civil war, the elite of imperial scientists and engineers crafted the modern Juggernauts, and sent them off to scout out the galactic neighbourhood. (Since the empire's TW capabilities could still be less than optimal, it would take several centuries for these ships to reach their destinations.)

When the Civil War broke out, the remaining Juggernauts caused horrific damage on rebel worlds, while the Community forces set out to destroy the imperial fleet production facilities. Once destroyed, the last few Juggys were hunted down and destroyed, or fled to parts unknown.

Much like the victorious Seltorians in M81, the more advanced projects carried out by the empire were beyond the reach (technologically, logistically or otherwise) for the young Community - and their more pacifist ways led them to shun the very concept in any event. (Instead of trying to reproduce the phaser weapons used by the empire, the Community stuck with their trusty Pulsars et al.)

This would mean that the 'phasers' that the Juggernauts have are possibly not really phasers, but act in a similar enough manner to match - similar to how the Andro primary weapons match up with phaser-2s.

So, perhaps the emblem seen on the Juggernauts is in fact the logo of the old Chomak empire - and the Juggernauts still heading to Alpha, and possibly elsewhere, have no idea that the empire they were programmed to serve has long since crumbled to dust.


Gary

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 02:17 pm: Edit

Gary I have a nagging suspicion that all of the constructed "cause-death-and-destruction monsters", whether they be; a Juggernaught, Death Probe, Banshees, Planet Crusher, or whatever that can be cooked up, shall be revealed once the Xorklians are produced. IE the Xorklians made them all.

So I doubt the Chomak's will have any involvement in them.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 02:19 pm: Edit

I know - but it couldn't hurt to try!

(Or maybe it might... who's that knocking on the door?)


Gary

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 03:00 pm: Edit

Neither the Xorks nor the Chomaks made any of them.

By Jim Cummins (Jimcummins) on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 03:13 pm: Edit

How about the Chomak, build autonomous robots, who revolt and destroy most of the civilization, in the process, and only a rag tag few escape the mutual annihilation to the cluster to rebuild and regroup. The survivors swear off most technology and have to rediscover their technical marvels once the society is willing to trust advanced technology again.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 04:04 pm: Edit

SPP
I see your concerns that a 7000 year old empire might have "Godlike" tech. But there's an underlying assumption that they would advance technologically along the same curve as other races. If I can posit a thought that such a notion is based on the pattern in HUMAN society and that we've applied that same tech growth patter to other races as they have been created in SFB. Which may or may not be valid when applied to non-humans. I would suggest sentients that have extremely long life spans may be a bit more conservative vis-a-vis tech growth (As an example),

But even if we were to accept that it's a universal growth curve, I would suggest that there is one essential thing that DRIVES it and that is NEED.

If a 7000 year old empire got to the point that they were the biggest baddest dog on the block they wouldn't NEED to innovate. And if their tech had advanced to the point where stuff didn't wear out that would be another reason why they would plateau. It may be that they reached the point of General War tech and at that point could whup any dog on the block then the underlying reason who advancing weapons and defensive tech would wane. They might however advance to the point that maintenance and repair of said ships got much easier and less often necessary.

For instance there is a battle going on in Congress about updating US nuclear weapons. Some feel there is no NEED to do so (A misguided notion IMHO). But ultimately what will drive the advancement if it happens is if the NEED is established/

This isn't necessarily to argue for or against rises and falls in Chomak history, but a suggestion you might re-examine your thinking on the nature of technological advancement
regards
Stacy

By Steve Zamboni (Szamboni) on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 04:14 pm: Edit

If the Jindarians have been in the Cluster as long as they've been on the main map, then a Jindarian-Chomak war that ended badly for the Chomak could be part of the rise-decline cycle. (I don't have the books with me at the moment.) Losing their fleet and having their empire carved into isolated 3EP systems by Jindarian interdiction could take them decades to recover from.

Even if the interdiction is lifted (either by Chomak aggression or Jindarian neglect), building new freighters, new border stations, and reintegrating isolated systems would eat up a chunk of their economy for quite some time.

Then some enthusiastic Chomak prospector blows up a Jindarian dreadnought by accident and the cycle starts all over again...

(The Gripping Hand dealt with cycles as well. The home planet would periodically destroy itself in civil wars, but the space-based groups would be unharmed. Chomak planetary income could be reduced to zero every couple of hundred years, leaving space-based groups to gather provincial income. This would be enough for them to cover ship maintenance, but not enough to expand or develop new technology.)

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 04:45 pm: Edit

Except that the Jindarians just don't fight wars.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 06:26 pm: Edit

Stacy Brian Bartley:

One thing I do not want to get into is races that arose in the Magellanic Cloud, and the collapsed during the 7,000 years. At least not in any specifics. But in Seven Thousand Years there probably were some.

When does history start? The Old Kings were wandering around our Galaxy at the time the Chomak were a going concern. That means an older starfaring civilization before we took our first faltering steps. One that existed and then departed. It could well be that there were starfaring civilizations in the Cloud before the Baduvai, Eneen, Jumokians, Uthiki, and Yrol Septs.

What was the Chomak interaction with that?

Just what does the term "recently captured". It is possible that Ken was referring to something "real", but I cannot turn anything up in a fast look through the net specifically stating that a "captured star cluster" is part of the Lesser (or Small) Magellanic Cloud. If there is an actual piece of information saying that a given Star Cluster has been captured, and a date when it is estimated to have been captured, we could go from there. Otherwise we would have to assume that capture was a thousand or more years ago (recent means something very different on a "galactic scale" than it does to us mere mortals).

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 07:00 pm: Edit

SPP: One possible route might be that there was an Old Kings race that kept the Chomak down for most of those years and the Chomak are only recently freed. Sure the Chomak have been in space for seven thousand years but their progress was stalled almost that entire time under Old Kings rule.

Or they were a fairly peaceful race for a long time and were conquered by the Old Kings race and reduced to servitude. When the Old Kings race left they had to rebuild their technologies like everyone else.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 07:35 pm: Edit

Loren Knight:

I do not think that is workable for their existing background. I admit that their background is not much, but they do not come across as someone who has a fear of someone else dominating them prior to the Andromedans.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 07:54 pm: Edit

SPP,

I don’t know if the Chomak star cluster represents something real or not.

Magellanic Bridge joins the Large and Small Magellanic Clouds. Here is a link: http://www.atnf.csiro.au/pasa/17_1/putman/paper/node2.html .Perhaps the star cluster called Chomak is just trapped between the two clouds rather than recently captured by one or the other.

The Chomak star cluster could be located in the Magellanic Bridge. Perhaps the Chomak developed the technology to travel between both clouds. After experimenting with blowing themselves up through civil wars the Chomak began extra-galactic travel. Their ships designs were focused on long range exploration.

In various references the distance to the Great Magellanic Cloud (LMC) is listed as 160,000 light years and the Lesser (SMC) as 210,000 light years. Here is a link to a map: http://www.anzwers.org/free/universe/sattelit.html

The three routes from the Alpha sector would pass some what close to a direct route to the LMC. The Andromedans took over the Chomak star cluster for two reasons. One was to eliminate the Chomak as threat. Second reason was to use Chomak as a base to launch operations into the Great Magellanic Cloud.

By Stephen E. Parrish (Parrish) on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 08:48 pm: Edit

Question: According to the timeline, the Chomak withdraw from the rest of the LMC in Y67. As far as I can see, the next time they are mentioned is Y122. Is this the first time after withdrawing that the Chomak renew contact with the rest of the LMC?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 09:10 pm: Edit

Well, in C5's Designer's comments, Ken refers to a wire report he read about a star cluster being snagged by the LMC a billion years ago...


Gary

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 09:12 pm: Edit

Interesting reference. "Y122... A Chomak squadron circumscibes the Fringe, stopping at the boundaries of the line, making contact with the Baduvai in the process."

SPP I take circumscribe to mean circumnavigate the LMC via the Fringe. Does stopping at the "boundaries of the line" mean each race terretorial boundary with the Fringe?