Hi!

SVC: Since I can't open this in the 'Strange Places' sub-board just yet, could you please move this thread there - or wherever it would be more appropriate to go? Sorry for the inconvenience.

I raised the issue in the Y2 topic about this, but Mike suggested I take it elsewhere, so...

Since there is going to be a history of the rise of the Tholian Will in their Home Galaxy (M81), there will most likely be scope for covering the 'early years' conflicts that were fought on this path to ascendance (assuming there were other empires in M81 against which the Tholians had to fight it out with).

Also, it may be the case that the first race to be given 'most trusted subject race' status in M81 had Y-era starships which they used to patrol the galaxy - or, at least, the portion of the galaxy under the Will's sway - before attempting an uprising and getting crushed in the process.

(Perhaps the advent of web was the key decider in the Will's survival of this first uprising - along with TL12 ships capable of using them. Assuming, of course, that Y-era Tholian ships couldn't use webs themselves...)

Also, there will be an 'old galaxy pirate' ship published this year (most likely) so perhaps there was an early version of this particular pirate ship (like the early Orions) or that the race in question was once an empire of their own (such as the Jumokians in the LMC).

And another question would be whether the early Seltorians ever had Y-era ships (either built by themselves, or given to them by a dominant Will). Could they be added to an early M81 module?


And of the Bolosco in Omega, who (for now) are listed as being from M81 - as were the KoTarnHo (a race who persecuted the early Bolosco in their original galaxy) - if that does not get changed in future Omega modules, could there be room for them as well?


I'm guessing that W- and Y-era Tholians could be given phaser-2s and one-shot-per-turn particle cannons, but not web generators or casters (They could be saved for the first 'modern' ships built by the Will, serving as one of the advantages that made galactic conquest possible). Or perhaps the first generators went on Y-ships, but casters had to wait until the first NCA was built.

EDIT: On the particle cannons, perhaps W-era ships can fire only once per turn, while Y-era ships can fire twice - but neither era ship can use overloads.

Finally (for now), I would propose that M81's Y-era would be a good candidate for inclusion in a forthcoming Y-module. As the early ISC features as a 'new' setting in Y2, early M81 could feature in Y3 or later in a similar role.

It could be named Module Y3: The Rise of the Tholian Will.

Any thoughts?


Gary

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, February 21, 2007 - 03:37 pm: Edit

Perhaps this idea might have to wait until the PD Tholians book is done - or more info on the early Will is published.


Gary

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, February 21, 2007 - 09:18 pm: Edit

There is going to be so much information in PDT that there cannot possibly be any work done here at this time.

Yes there is a long history of the Tholians from their first space travels to the Fall of the Will. I promise that it will be epic in scale and very unique with lots of story paths and interesting races.

The Ancient History section is done in three eras with considerable time between each.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, February 21, 2007 - 09:22 pm: Edit

Loren,


Is there enough you have prepared to even allow an overview of the Early Years in M81, similar to the early ISC article we'll see in CL35 (which SVC ran through at the Y2 ISC development thread) - not enough to spoil PDT, but enough to give a rough idea of what we could see in early years M81?


Gary

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, February 21, 2007 - 09:38 pm: Edit

I'd have to think on that. The thing is that I'm presenting a growing history that takes place in a pretty high arc.

All of the ancient history is written lacking only SVC and SPP requested adjustments (which I've mostly done except for the most complex part of theri involvement which is the late Will era).

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, February 21, 2007 - 09:51 pm: Edit

Well, assuming that this could be an option for headlining a future Y-module (a big assumption, I know, but for now...) what we might need there would be:

*An overview of the Will in this time period, any subject races (if any) under their control - possibly filling the kind of role that the Seltorians would fill in later years, along with maybe 3-4 of their more prominent rivals (again, if any),

*Whether the Old Galaxy Pirate ship had an early years equivalent (think Orions), or was part of a former empire's fleet (think Jumokians), or simply didn't exist,

*A map of the Will and its neighbours, to give an idea of who is where and how strong they are,

*Data on which known Tholian tech is in use, or reduced in effectiveness (back to my no-web-casters, reduced-particle-cannon ideas from the first post in this thread - which, of course, may be well off),

*SSDs for W- and Y-era Tholian ships and bases (if needed), as well as those for the other races included.

*Whatever else I'm missing (when Y2 is printed, the layout of the early ISC section will be a good indicator of what would be needed to introduce the early M81 setting).


Do you think we can take enough from the PDT stuff to do this without giving away too much?


Gary

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, February 21, 2007 - 11:00 pm: Edit

Gary,

I'm pretty sure that M81 would be a C module. I think people will need to revie the entire ancient hisotry to determin what they'd most like to see. You might find the middle era far more interesting.

I'll tell you this, the Tholians were not always the Will and when they were the Will they had no neighbors.

Gary, I wish I could give you more but this particular thing isn't made up of bits and pieces. I'll tell you this. Tholian history is all about the web and I tried to weave their history into a web. They were not always the same, they changed, they became the Will and without what had come before the Holdfast might be very different. I weaved back and forth to construct their background and everything ties together. I felt it my responsability to make a non-static background full of success's and failures, strife and progress and to create something that in totally internally consistant with all previously published material AND within itself.

With such a tightly woven web its hard to come up with what could be given with little connection or explaination.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 01:47 pm: Edit

Hi.


CL40 will see the inclusion of two pirate raider ships from the M81 Galaxy, giving that setting that little bit more flavour.

While I hope that one day we'll see a full M81 module, for now I wanted to talk about what, if any, additional units might be reasonable for the pirates to have.


When it comes to pirate operations in that galaxy, at least in the time prior to the Revolt, the pirates' primary foe would be the Seltorians - who would be busy doing the enforcer work for the Tholian Will. Indeed, once the Revolt is over, the Selts would become even more prominent as an opposition, since now they would be the ones running the galaxy... or, at least, trying to hold it together.

While the Selts have starbases and other fixed locations, a key element of their fleet is the range of factory ships they operate - which would make it that much harder for a band of pirates in a given corner of M81 to try and rely on fixed locations themselves.

So, perhaps the pirates might operate either dedicated ships, or variants of one or more of their raider classes, as mobile support units. While something on the scale of a Nest Ship would be a bit much to get away with, perhaps (or, post Revolt, who knows?) but some means of building spare parts, new components, or perhaps even sections of new ships would be quite useful.


Also, while we are due to get two sizes of pirate vessel in CL40, how many (if any) other classes, larger or smaller, would the M81 pirates be likely to operate? How many of them would be tailored for anti-commerce work, used as enforcer ships, or perhaps designed more to target any Seltorian or Tholian patrol ships that get too close for comfort?


And one other thing - what kind of role, if any, would captured/purchased hulls serve for their pursuers? While the Tholians of the Will were too haughty to bother with covert operations (something the Holdfast learned about the hard way) the Seltorians could certainly make do with the odd pirate hull in the run-up to the Revolt.

Indeed, once the Revolt began, I'd almost imagine them making it easy for web breaker tech to fall into pirate hands/claws/etc, if only out of spite towards the Tholians. (While the pirates may or may not already have shield crackers, web breakers are useless against Seltorians anyway, but would make it that bit easier for the pirates to hit Tholian targets - a net result for the Seltorians, perhaps.)


This is intended to be more of a long-term discussion, since I'm sure there won't be much more happening for the pirates overnight - not least since we still need to see how the 2 pirates will look in print!

Even so, I wanted to cast this bread upon the waters, and see where it may one day lead.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 12:03 pm: Edit

Gary Carney:

Do not make an assumption that the pirates in the Tholian Home Galaxy had the same background as the pirates in the Alpha Octant.

The cartel system here works partly because there are borders an Orion ship can flee across that the police forces of the empire in pursuit cannot cross.

That is not the case in the Tholian Home Galaxy. They owned all of it, and if a ship was in hot pursuit of a pirate it could call on police ships from all over neighboring space, and cross "county" or even "state" lines while in pursuit.

While it is entirely possible there were subdivisions of the pirates, they were more "gangs" than "cartels".

Enforcers are unlikely as special built ships because there is no real franchise system because there is no cartel system.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 12:24 pm: Edit

"Gangs"

Exactly the take I've been operating from. There are a few additional factors I've been working, with but this characterizes them pretty well.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 02:05 pm: Edit

To clarify, the Orions were not the only point of comparison I had in mind. I've been thinking of the various pirate manifestations which have already been published (Orion, Jumokian) as well as others which have been given some pieces of data on, but have yet to make it into print (Zosmans, pre-Y160 ISC pirates, and so forth).


When it comes to the M81 pirates, I had a few ideas regarding what they might be up to, and why.


I would definitely see them operate in cells, of one shape or another - the galaxy is far too vast for it to be otherwise. (Even the Lesser Magellanic Cloud is too big for just one Jumokian cell to work, as would pre-Y160 ISC space.)


Secondly, I'd consider these cells to have widely differing outlooks, when it comes to their operation.

As a point of comparison, some Jumokian cells have gone over completely to piracy for its own sake (especially those which branched out from Eneen space) while others would be committed to the long-term goal of liberating their conquered homeworld from first Eneen, then later Andromedan occupation.

Given how many conquered planets and subject species the Will - and later the Suzerainty - would have under their control, there'd likely be several resistance groups which would choose piracy as a long-term means to that end. (Rather than bottle one's ships in one system for the Will or Suzerainty to smash, preserve as much of your fleet as you can by remaining mobile.)


Also, it's noted in module C3, (R15.Z1) that a number of local systems have ships of their own, and these would occasionally rise up in revolt.

(I might argue that with the damage caused by the Seltorian Revolt - in which at least one Seltorian starbase was lost - there might be a surge in such uprisings once the Tholians are gone. Indeed, without the kind of web-based options the Will had on offer, I'd argue that the Seltorians might be more strained to maintain a firm grip on the entire galaxy by themselves, even leaving aside the assets the Suzerainty is setting aside each year for financing long-range Tribunal fleets.)

Perhaps some cells are more keen than others to offer themselves as mercenaries to such would-be rebel systems?


As well as planet-based rebel factions, there could be a species or group of nomadic wanderers in M81 - who, like the Jindarians in the LMC and elsewhere, might call upon mercenary support from time to time.


In any case, I'd argue that even if all of these cells might have common foes in the Tholians and Seltorians, there's no guarantee any of them would like one another.

In order for a cell to promote its interests, be it against Seltorian cruisers or rival cells/groups/gangs/etc, some kind of enforcer ship would be useful - just as the CL, and arguably the NDD, serve for Jumokian cells (which do not have Orion-like cartels either, and under the decades of Andromedan occupation have only one 'government' to run from).

By Matthew Scull (Mscull) on Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 02:36 pm: Edit

You might want to Look at the Planet based Pirates more as a State Sponsored Privateer System.

During the Will period these would be more along the lines of Purpose built multi-configuration Freighters, high speed transports and the Occasional "off the books" Frigate.

Independent Pirates on the other hand would more than likely be a Small group of Merchants that are supplementing their income with some piracy on the side. They may include one of the aforementioned Planetary ships that has went Rogue.

The Biggest Ship feasible for both types is a DD and then only by a group that could actually Build or Finance from a group that could.

Now variations on the Aux-L/Aux-S Warships may abound but realistically Small Raider ships is the way to go. The Are only trying to Resist the Wills Local Governments PCs not the Navy's Warships, After the Seletorian Revolt, Ship size may expand since they will be focused on Destroying the Will and the Will is Focused on Surviving.

But the Step From Planetary/Enterprising Merchant Group to legitimate government means they will no longer be pirates.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 03:21 pm: Edit

In a place like M81 you're going to get a mix of "what works" rather than a single common system as we see in the Alpha Octet.

Obscure planets, perhaps with some natural hazard like a nebula or dust cloud. With the tech we're talking about, a dead world circling a pulsar or black hole would be just ducky if you didn't mind life indoors.

Some special zone like the WYN cluster or sargasso. Doesn't have to be either, but a "sargasso sector" could be someting common to all galaxies. who knows?

Mobile operations don't have to be fast or stealthy if they can hide in plain sight, like inside an ore freighter. With a penchant for extra huge hive ships, M81 might also be home to some truly ginormous civilian ships as well.

If we borrow a page from the present-day African coast piracy, we can introduce something like Pirate INTs or PF that can be based out of a hijacked freighter cargo bay.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 03:58 pm: Edit

A few unofficial notes:

Piracy is older than the Will. (I feel pretty safe making that statement)

Building specialized ships for piracy under the nose of the Will is a super risky proposition (I can't say it's impossible).

Piracy under the Will seems to me to be more about freedom and/or survival rather than wealth and power. One might join a pirate gang to escape the law or persecution, or extermination of the group or race one belonged to.

The Will had no emperor to kill or lynch pin to pull to topple it with a few heroes (OK, the Seltorians were in a unique position, but their numbers were not few). There was no hope, under the Will, of achieving anything close to the freedom of operation that the MWG pirates have. Operating any sort of complex organization would bring serious repercussions. If the Seltorians were the enforcers, you can be sure the Tholians maintained a close watch on things and had vast intelligence agencies (like the ones that discovered the creation of the web breaker). The more complex your organization, the more people know about it and the Tholians have vays of making you talk.

I'd rather be questioned by a Terminator than try to keep secretes from a Tholian interrogator.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 04:47 pm: Edit

When it comes to would-be occupiers, it's hard to think of a worse set of overlords than the Andromedans - not least if any of their killer robots capture you alive and drag you to one of their scientific outposts...

And yet, the Jumokians were able to maintain a degree of shipbuilding capability in the Magellanic fringe areas for decades.

Indeed, even before the Andros showed up, while Jumok was being occupied by the Eneen (who weren't afraid to drop WMDs themselves, when they deemed it appropriate) the Jumokians were able to develop a new hull type, in the form of the NDD.


Now, two things the Jumokians had in their favour was the set of lessons they learned from the local Jindarians (in terms of learning how to build and operate asteroid shipyards) and the nature of Magellanic geography (the Fringe regions the Jumokians fled to were harder for anyone to occupy and patrol than the main area of the Cloud, which outside of the densely-packed Core has an 'average' stellar density).

There may or may not be Jindarians in M81, but even if no other species of asteroid-huggers is local to the area, the idea of carving production facilities out of semi-portable hunks of rock isn't too far a stretch for a warp-capable society, perhaps.


Plus, it would be somewhat of a surprise if the M81 galaxy turns out to have a flat uniformity of on-map provinces, compared to places like the Cloud or the Milky Way. As John suggests, perhaps some areas of the galaxy are harder to pacify than others?



EDIT: An interesting note or few about the Magellanic situation.

The Jumokians often worked alongside the Jindarians while in exile, even before the Andromedan Invasion. Also, once the Magellanic empires starting getting knocked off one by one, their remnants in the Fringe both worked alongside Jumokian remnant bands to survive, and also acquired the same asteroid yard technology that the Jumokians had in turn picked up from the Jindarians.

However, even in the lean years prior to Operation Unity - which none of the Magellanic remnants would have had any forewarning about - it was still not unheard of for some of these resistance cells to clash, or to otherwise not trust each other.

Even with a common foe as terrible as the Andromedans over their collective shoulders, not everyone in the resistance was able to set their differences to one side...

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 04:52 pm: Edit

Corruption.

In most earth examples, authoritarian regimes are accompanied by elevated corruption. In a system where Tholians are the top dogs, all the mongrels are on the take.

As likely would be the fleas.

If the tholian intelligence services were that good, it has to be because they empoyed non-tholians. There's only so sneaky a big crystal in a mobile oven of an environment suit is going to be. They have to employ local talent. And local talent can be corrupt.

Corruption can work both ways. If the tholians pry open their checkbook, they can buy results that a fleet of warships can't deliver or can't nearly as easily.

Going further along this line, as long as quuasi-legal activity isn't too stupid, blatant, and doesn't cost too much, the local Tholains will let it slide because they profit personally from cutting themselves in on a piece of the action and professionally by using their favord group of thugs and malcontents against less sociable thugs and malcontents, to say nothing of the favored thugs and malcontents belonging to a rival patron.

Theorietially M81 could have a whole second history. A history of rivalries and wars fought in the shadows among powerful Tholian politicians, businessmen and bureaucrats.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 05:05 pm: Edit

Indeed.

Think of the kind of power, prestige and influence within the Will a few key roles in, say, the construction of each new Sphere would net you - not to mention the related deals that sub-contractors sourcing all of the materials and finished parts needed to build the things would entail.


Billions of lives in dozens of star systems, all hanging on whether this or that set of worlds are lined up as fodder in order to get that 1/32nd of Sphere Talaxithol-109CW2T up and running...

By Jonathan Jordan (Arcturusv) on Saturday, November 14, 2009 - 01:47 pm: Edit

To add another angle... look at the example of the Branthodons and Alunda within the Omega sector. Both using biological technology based off local space monsters, neither was actually aware in thier history that the other was a sentient race and controlled "Ships" until they had already effectively been at war with one another for a long time.

Might be another M81 pirate angle. Someone taming/mutating one of the local monster types ala the Branths. The Will might not have even been aware they were Pirates or Malcontents at all, thinking it was just the cost of doing business with the wandering monsters and all. And presumably if they did eventually figure it out it'd be alot harder to actually pinpoint thier yards/base and nuke it since said creatures could just wander off to another food source and spawn over there. Might be the only way a formal, organized Pirate Cartel/Resistance could stand up there.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 12:14 am: Edit

Actually, I was thinking of something else, too.


What if some of the more esoteric foes weren't just 'home-grown' pirates or rebels, but from some as-yet-unknown sets of extra-galactic invaders?


The M81 Galaxy's energy barrier is weaker than that around the Milky Way - which negatively affected the units from that galaxy trying to get into our own, but which would, conversely, make the transition easier for would-be intruders into M81 itself.

Plus, not all invaders would be alike. I was thinking that there could be a relatively common stream of 'average' nuisances (the M81 equivalent of our galaxy fending off the odd Juggernaut or Death Probe) bracketed by the rare major incursion one one end of the scale, and perhaps a more insidious long-term effort at subterfuge on the other.


In terms of bigger fights, I remembered a note in Module C3's (SH110.0) - which said that in the era since the Will's total dominance of M81, no starbase had been successfully attacked. Given the context of the scenario the line is included in, I'd suggest that maybe the reference could mean only Tholian starbases (the only ones the Will would truly care about).

That could mean that if an invading armada showed up in M81, perhaps they might still be strong enough to pop, say, a Seltorian starbase - which would have no web-based protective defences - and/or the odd Selt factory ship, before they were defeated.

Further, prerhaps the invaders' impetus could be broken at a Tholian NSB, allowing for the Tholian-Seltorian armada to mass in force enough to crush the invader fleet. Such a turn of events would both feed into the confidence the Will had in its web-based defence network, as well as mark any Seltorian losses as solved with the use of more ships.

That would allow for an invasion large enough to give the Tholians and Seltorians a headache, without drastically affecting the long-term tactical or strategic doctrines of either.

(Or, maybe it did affect them. Perhaps the Seltorian fleet was a smaller ratio of the Will's total naval assets pre-invasion - say, 2:1. The Will may have decided to allow the Seltorian fleet to become the much larger ratio (4:1) they were at the time of the Revolt. The Tholians would be thinking they were further securing their galaxy, while still remaining safe behind their wedding cakes. The sheer destructiveness of the eventual Revolt would be the fatally ironic result...)


On a smaller scale, there could be sets of smaller ships, showing up at different locations over several decades, working to keep their heads down and their efforts to assess the M81 Galaxy up. They may not feel up to challenging the Will (or Suzerainty) directly, but they would certainly have the potential of causing trouble for the odd pirate band. Plus, there'd always be the risk that a Tholian or Seltorian patrol or task force would stumble into them, through accident or design.


Indeed, one idea which might be interesting is if at least one such group if arrivals were from one of M81's satellite galaxies. That would make things even more interesting, when the time came for the post-Revolt Tholians to take flight, and for the Tribunal fleets to be launched in pursuit...


None of these threats would have to be the same as any of those we've so far seen in the Milky Way and Lesser Magellanic Cloud. However, even if no-one in M81 ever sees a Space Dragon, Juggernaut or Andromedan Intruder (unless, for example, one of those gets dumped there by accident via Vortex, or something) there could still be a whole host of new craft and species which could show up to give the inhabitants of M81 all sorts of headaches.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 02:56 pm: Edit

That assumes that anyone besides the Tholians HAD starbases.

I always thought that the Selts and such got SAMS or similar reasonably defenseless bases. Plus graving docks.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 05:05 pm: Edit

Michael C. Grafton:

It it established (and not even Loren Knight or Stacy Brian Bartley or any other Tholian overlord can change this) that the Tholian Will, while it denied their "Most Trusted Subject Race" the Seltorians Battleships (they did allow them dreadnoughts), they did allow them Starbases (in addition to battle stations).

How exactly the system worked (with Tholian Starbases located here, and Seltorian Starbses located there, and Tholian Dyson Spheres located over there, and Tholian Battle Stations over yonder, and Seltorian Battle Stations back over there) I honestly do not know.

But it is established fact [there is exists a scenario (SH111.0), and an SSD (Pages #40 & #41 in Module C3) for a Seltorian Old Galaxy Starbase, and an SSD (Pages #39 & #42 in Module C3) and scenario (SH110.0) for a Tholian Old Galaxy Starbase) that both the Seltorians and Tholians had starbases in their home galaxy. (The Seltorian Old Galaxy Battle Station is on Page #80 of Module C3.)

Now, the Grigspitzls (and various other subjected peoples) were allowed by The Will to have Commercial Platforms and to operate freighters for purposes of keeping the economy going to serve the Will (keep the average Tholian citizen in the life of luxury to which he was entitled by having been born a Tholian), but they had no "warships" or "major orbital facilities" beyond those. The planet did have "defensive weapons" (Ground Based Defense Stations) if it was important enough, but only really for the purpose of keeping the Pirates from raiding the planet (or at least making them pay a price for doing so). But only The Will had warships and true deep space bases.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 05:17 pm: Edit

SPP
I'm not aware that I ever argued differently...
regards
Stacy

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 06:14 pm: Edit

Stacy Brian Bartley:

The Empire Security Service, Galactic Research Unit, and Klingon General Bureau know your very soul.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 06:32 pm: Edit

Petrick
WHY oh WHY would I want the Seltorians to have battleships? I created the Seltorians to give the Tholians a challenge but not a SERIOUS challenge!

C'mon lets be rational here!

regards
Stacy

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 09:02 pm: Edit

Well, the Seltorians ended up going one better over Battleships.


"I'll see your Battleship led fleet and raise you one Battle...WAGON!"


(BTW: Wagon isn't for the four wheel cart pulled behind a beast of burden. It short for the reation most people give when they see one... "Waaaa...the... we're gone." Wa-gon.

By Terence Sean Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 11:59 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

I created the Seltorians to give the Tholians a challenge but not a SERIOUS challenge!

---

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 12:16 am: Edit

Terrence
Well, history (aka Rev. Ron Wheeler) had already established that they did that before I developed the Seltorian name and the outline of their history. All I did was define in more detail what we already had established. The idea was that a contingent would arrive and keep the Tholians on their toes. After Operation Nutcracker and the arrival of the 312th the Tholians became MUCH tougher for their traditional adversaries to beat.

The Seltorians weren't around in Klingon space very long thanks to the ISC. But there may be survivors out there SOMEWHERE...

regards
Stacy

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 10:49 am: Edit

Gary, you are missing way too much M81 info to start guessing what's going on there. You might guess or ask, but actually trying to define things is way out of your league, your balliwick, and your place. Some of what you have posted is dead wrong, but that's just because we haven't told you some things which make your guesses, assumptions, and speculaton laughably wrong.

So, feel free to ask your questions.

But as for the answers, we will tell you when we want you to know.

Please, no more attempts to define something that Loren already defined but that I haven't authorized him to reveal.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, November 22, 2009 - 01:20 am: Edit

In that case, I'll try to stick with more questions.

Is it likely there'd be at least a few more hull sizes available for the pirates - such as an OGF (frigate), OGC (heavy cruiser), OGS (salvage/repair/support unit), OGT (equivalent of a Free of Prime Traitor) and so forth?

Also, could they operate similar asteroid bases to those seen in use by the Jindarians and Jumokians? (At least in principle, if not in actual construction.)


Indeed, when it comes to the idea of support ships, I had another idea. Could it be possible that, rather then deploying separate custom-made hulls for the task, the M81 pirates could operate dedicated pods for use with their regular warships?

Such pods could be transferred from one pirate ship to another, and stashed away at a hidden cache for use when not in service.

By Jeffrey George Anderson (Jeff) on Monday, April 30, 2018 - 01:50 am: Edit

I know this thread has been quiet for a VERY long time, but with your permission, I'd like to add a little kerosene to these embers in hopes they've not gone completely cold.

My personal favorite types of ships to make home-made SSDs for are tiny patrollers; movement cost 1/4 ships with a couple guns. In terms of the SFU, they MIGHT be the sort of thing an occupied planet might put together with parts scavenged/stolen from wrecks and shipyards and put together as a cottage industry.

Given an incompatibility between Tholian biology and the biospheres of most of the subject worlds of The Will, they'd have as hard of a time policing their subjects as the Klingons and Lyrans had policing the Hydrans during their two occupations.

Getting back to these small... Patrollers? As little more than repurposed Security Skiffs, they'd stand as much of a chance against the warships of The Will as a Boghammar stands against an AEGIS ship in any sort of normal fight.

HOWEVER, a small pack of them MIGHT be the sort of thing that a Tholian police ship (PC) or Seltorian Frigate might not be able to handle...

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, April 30, 2018 - 01:52 pm: Edit

The Pirates of M81 Galaxy article in Captain's Log #41 goes into more detail on how the OGR and OGD from Captain's Log #40 are operated, and where the technology required to build and operate them comes from.

Essentially, the OGR and OGD are "export models" sold to numerous High Pirate Bands by the Nebuline, a faction which survived the Tholian conquest by hiding out in a number of active nebulae. The Nebuline used their own "winged" raiders, as well as "wingless" ships to defend their homes; each of which possessing some sort of as-yet-unpublished "key Nebuline technology" which provides them with significant advantages when fighting inside a nebula.

At some point, I think it would be interesting to see a set of "true" Nebuline ships - both the "winged" and "wingless" varieties - in a future issue of Captain's Log. But anyway...


The kind of units you are referring to might make more sense as "rebel" (R15.Z1) ships, as opposed to "pirates" (R15.Z2) - at least in the sense that these "patrollers" might be the kind of thing a rebellious planet might try to build for itself, rather than being a design which a pirate band would import from the Nebuline.

But then, it is noted that Low Pirate Bands often start off with a captured freighter or two, and sometimes (but not always) build themselves up to the point where they can rise to High Pirate Band status (through acquiring ships from the Nebuline). Perhaps such jury-rigged patrol units might be seen as stopgap units, which a Low Pirate Band may try to get by with in the interim?

By Jeffrey George Anderson (Jeff) on Monday, April 30, 2018 - 09:42 pm: Edit

I read the article, Gary. It's a good one. I was just trying to come up with some sort of presentation for how pirates might get started. That's all.

Well, that, and I've long thought of how to mimic the actions of modern day pirates (like those operating in Somalia) in SFB...

(TBH: I've always thought of the Orions as being something more akin to "Pirates of the Caribbean" than anything else...)

By Jeffrey George Anderson (Jeff) on Wednesday, May 30, 2018 - 10:27 pm: Edit

A month later, and I've been thinking something on a VERY different line (just don't know where to put it)

We have a couple MAJOR fleet actions in the Tholian/Seltorian Home Galaxy that, because there are no seeking weapons, no T-bombs, no scouts, and no... well, no to a LOT of stuff, the battles can be played out in a short time.

While I don't have anyone who I've made up to propose, I'm thinking that the Seltorians might not be the only folks the Tholian Overlords "Allowed" to have ships. Who might the other people be, and how did they react to the Seltorian take-over...

I would suspect that there would have been supporting the Seltorians in the uprising, others who would have continued to support the Tholians (possibly expecting that THEY'd replace the Seltorians as "Most Favored Subject Race" after the uprising had been put down, as all previous ones had been), and (of course) those who hadn't rebelled against the Tholians due to their powerlessness against the hefty webs, who might see an opportunity to bid for power themselves.

During the time of Tholian domination, the only real means most of these people would have to lash out would be through "Pirates," and I would imagine that the resulting confusion would present quite the opportunity for all of them.

As for who these people might be, I've recently had thoughts regarding the Borak as one potential. Yes, I know their racial history was presented as their being a neighbor to the Hydrans, but anything formal might cause real ripples in F&E, so I'm thinking this might be an alternative that would allow their formal publication...

... minus, of course, their scout, attrition units, and other things lacking in the M81 Galaxy...

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Thursday, May 31, 2018 - 06:04 pm: Edit

I got the impression that there are plans to formally introduce the Borak to the Early Years time period (they are conjectural thereafter since they were conquered by the Hydrans before the Middle Years).

Still, I like the idea that there might have been another "most favored subject race" waiting in the wings. Since two prior revolts by "most favored" subject races failed it was probably common wisdom that the Seltorian Revolt was doomed to failure and the Tholians would soon have an opening for new henchmen. It's even possible that the Tholians may have picked a new "most favored subject race" while the war was still in progress.

By Jeffrey George Anderson (Jeff) on Friday, June 01, 2018 - 12:06 am: Edit

The Borak playtest book does have the W-era Borak ships as well as the Y-era, but as to whether they're meant to be formally introduced in a future Y-era module is something I've heard nothing about.

(Then again, while I'd be all too happy to buy any future Y-module(s) that may be made, I don't know if any are planned, let alone when they might be released.)

The playtest book also effectively has two separate generations of ships for the Four Powers War era and the General War era, plus a small contingent of X-ships, so there is material for them across the entire timeline for SFB. For this reason (and, of course, the fact that I'm just a nutter allowed to comment; I'm not part of the ADB Inc. decision making group) I honestly don't have a clue as to whether they'll ever have a non-conjectural status.

TBH: my post about them being presented as a player in the M-81 galaxy was just my clumsy way to try and encourage more ideas in this potential arena.

On a side note, manipulative overlords (as I'm picturing the Tholians) would probably be quite willing to pit races against each another in a Machiavellian game to keep them obsequieously seeking their masters favor.

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica_Orsini) on Friday, June 01, 2018 - 11:35 am: Edit

Given where there Borak were, and where the Peladine were...

...I can't help but wonder if (had they not been conquered by the Hydrans and Lyrans respectively) they would have eventually run into each other.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, June 01, 2018 - 01:33 pm: Edit

Jessica Orsini:

We addressed that, and the way "space" lays out the Lyran and Hydran "off map areas" are not contiguous. That is to say the Lyrans cannot launch a campaign from their off map regions to attack the Hydrans through the "back door" of their off map regions and vice versa. There is no chance of Lyran survey ships encountering Hydran survey ships. Thus the only way an expanding Borak Empire could run into an expanding Peladine Empire would be if the two empires each absorbed the existing Hydran and Lyran empires and then collided with each other, which might not have been exactly along the existing Hydran-Lyran border, but might have been shifted either way depending on the expansion efforts.

By Jeffrey George Anderson (Jeff) on Saturday, June 02, 2018 - 12:52 pm: Edit

Another thought for a prospective peoples for the M-81 galaxy; Jindarians.

The "Shipyard Cruisers" from Captain's Log #16 would be good places to actually BUILD the Nebuline "Pirate" ships AND have superior defenses (rock armor) in a slobberknocker in the nebulas, so they make sense (at least to me).

Also, as with the earlier mention I made for the Borak, Jindarians are a peoples who do NOT make use of seeking weapons; just direct fire, so if they were to solely use rock-hulled ships and NO attrition units in the M-81 galaxy, they'd fit my perception (however accurate or inaccurate that may be) of the model for that place.

As to a potential history, that might be a problem. The best I've come up with would be to suggest that there was a schism in Jindarian society back in their home galaxy. A tentative racial history goes something like this...

"When the Tholian Will first rose to power, countless millennia ago, there were other powers who vied with them for control of the galaxy. Among these were a race called the Jindarians.

"As their struggles grew more fierce, the Tholians, after developing their powerful Web technology, were able to break up conventional fleets of their Jindarian nemeses. This was the vital edge that the Jindarians were never able to overcome.

"Losing system after system and fleet after fleet, the Jindarians started to grow desperate. When they lost their original homeworld, a sense of despair overtook many who went into hiding in places they thought the Tholians would never look.

"When the war was finally over, the Tholians rejoiced in their total control over the galaxy. What remained of old enemies (and old battles) took on the feel amongst them of a big game hunt as they sought the genocidal extermination of those who had opposed them.

(That last bit was inspired by the opinion amongst the Seltorians of their former overlords.)

"For the fearful Jindarian survivors, fear drove them to develop the technologies to remain hidden ("Asteroid Ship Disengagement," anyone?) but even that wasn't enough. A schism developed among the Jindarians as to what to do to survive as a people. Several groups sought to escape the galaxy as a whole, seeking to find a new world in a new galaxy that they could call home.

"The band that reached the Milky Way encountered the Barrier. Penetrating it was pyrrhic at best and the precious few who survived were scarred by the event. After the rejoicing at their survival and mourning the dead, the few survivors started to rebuild what they were.

"They started over, almost from scratch. They chose to call their "Day of Deliverance" as the start of their new lives and new culture. All mention of their old lives, all mention of the Tholians, all mention of the lives lost in crossing the Barrier were to be erased. They were now the people of the starts of the Milky Way galaxy. For future generations, that's all that would be important, that's all that would be said.

"For the Jindarians that remained in the M-81 galaxy, the hatred remained and festered, as did the fear. Over countless millennia, those who sought to strike out against the new overlords would do so, and the mindset would, through that means, slowly purge itself from the cultures of the remaining bands of Jindarians. Each "Caravan" of asteroid ships would cast out those who sought to lash out, and eventually the survivors learned to live their mouse-like existence, eking what they could from the rocks while living in perpetual fear of The Will.

"For their part, the Tholians, over successive generations came to think that the Jindarians were no longer the "Great Sport" they had been in the centuries after their great victory and eventually started ignoring the "Rock Rats." An uneasy peace developed.

"For the Tholian refugees of the Seltorian Revolution, the presence of the Jindarians in the Milky Way, while interesting, was little more than a footnote, compared with their needs for survival after arriving in the Milky Way. For their part, the various Jindarian Caravans had gone so long after records of the Tholian War had been purged from their history books that none among them even knew of their existence.


I would suspect that this screwball story has more holes in it than a block of Swiss Cheese (and I welcome discussion on it), but does the idea of Jindarian asteroids in the Tholian/Seltorian home galaxy sound good to you all?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, July 24, 2018 - 03:00 pm: Edit

It so happens that Captain's Log #16 also has various angled views of the OGR itself on page 36, showing the "curve" of that oversized port wing. One wonders how one might adjust the features shown for this ship if/when considering its "wingless" equivalent in the "at-home" Nebuline navy.


As for the Jindarians, it's worth noting that they are known to have existed in the Alpha Octant, the Omega Octant, and the Lesser Magellanic Cloud for at least 100,000 years. And while the Caravans in a given region seemingly had some means of communication among one another, this link apparently did not extend across regions. For example, the Alpha-Jindarians and LMC-Jindarians did not reportedly become aware of one another's existence until Operation Unity - and even then, it was more a case of the Unity task forces passing on their awareness of Jindarians "back home" to those encountered in the LMC. Module X1R notes that the LMC-Jindarians did begin deploying first-generation X-ships after Operation Unity, though it is as yet unclear whether or not this involved any form of direct (or indirect) post-Unity contact between the LMC-Jindarians and their Alpha Octant counterparts.

Also, the large and small asteroid shipyards used by the Jindarians have already been "exported", minus certain unique Jindarian technologies, in the LMC. There, the LMC-Jindarians first provided the Jumokian exiles with the small and large asteroid yard templates published in SFB Module C5. The Jumokians would, in turn, pass these blueprints on to the Triple Pact exiles in the wake of the Andromedan conquest.

So, while there is no doubt much which the Jindarians (of any region) are not telling as regards their "ancient history", and there certainly seems to be more scope available in terms of were else in the SFU one might encounter a Jindarian Caravan or few, I'm not entirely sure if their asteroid yard technology would be a prerequisite in order to make Nebuline or High Pirate Band piracy in M81 work - even if something similar has already been done (from a game design perspective) over in the LMC.