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	Archive through May 18, 2007	25		05/21 03:24am

Jeff

Well, I think the issue is less WHERE a Dyson sphere might be than how it would look in the rules.

A kind of a King Of The Hill Campaign might be conducted with races returning from the Lesser Magellanic Cloud after Operation Unity discovering one in one of the many globular clusters surrounding the Milky Way discovering it and fighting for it. This would be literally the ONLY time in the SFU history that virtually ALL the races of the Alpha Quadrant would be able to duke it out over something like that—IF you wanted a historical campaign.

But it might be more interesting as simulator scenario-then you could plug in whatever races you wanted.

Mike
Fist of God is a good demonstration of what I meant.

regards
Stacy

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 11:57 pm: Edit

Jeff
In researching more about Dyson Spheres I've found that the dynamics of a solid sphere is EXTREMELY unstable. It would require constant maintenance it would require constant attention from an outside force to keep it stable. So a NATURALLY occurring Dyson sphere would be an extremely short lived phenomenon absent an outside force acting as a "shepherd" to keep it from crumbling under tidal forces and or falling off center and eventually striking the interior star (Note: These same dynamics required Larry Niven to revisit Ringworld in Ringworld Engineers after MIT students started chanting "Ringworld is unstable!" at World-Con and presenting him with the math to prove it. Niven went back to the drawing board and the attitude rockets appeared (And the origin of the Ringworld changed).

So what you need if you go for a NATURAL sphere (Which I still think is a bit much but lets go with it for a bit) is a shepherding force (to coin a phrase) that FORCES the sphere to be stable as well as forged it's existence. Let us say that a nova creates a a pair of soliton gravity waves one expanding one imploding. The expanding wave pushing the matter thrown off from the star and the debris from the planets in a wave front which collides with the IMPLODING gravity wave soliton not only forming a solid shell but for a small portion collapsing the electron shells so it is created an outer sphere of neutronium and an inner sphere of more common elements solid and gaseous.

Bingo you have a naturally created solid shell around a remaining white dwarf star. White dwarfs tend to last quite a while so you have a solid shell held in place by two complimentary soliton gravity waves neither of which will allow the other to pass and permanently holding the shell in a gravitational vice centered around the white dwarf.

Is all this balderdash? Of course it is. But no more than the notion that each turn in SFB is subjectively one minute meaning that while in combat starship crews age 300 times faster than people on a planet. Hopefully this only happens in combat else crews of starships would wear out rather quickly.

In space no one can hear you bend the laws of physics!

BUT meanwhile back at the sphere. We have a sphere an outer shell of neutron matter nice and solid and dense. What about gravity. We could come up with some gobbledy gook about how the explosion imparted spin and thus provided requisite gravity on the surface-but that would still leave areas of decreasing gravity until you get to the sphere's poles where there would be no gravity at all. Which might be problematic.

It is doubtful that given the requisite thinness it would have sufficient mass in any area to have any intrinsic gravity. But WAIT! There's those lovely soliton opposing waves! Implacable and never yielding holding the sphere and star in place with whatever gravitational level is convenient for us! Not only that they can provide us with a surface gravity not ONLY on the INTERIOR but also the EXTERIOR!!

Isn't it great once you posit one preposterous notion the implications of it just keep expanding!

Well, life is tenacious. Microbial life surviving from the vaporized planet survives on the sphere's interior and evolve to a new sentient life form that has NEVER known the stars only the perpetual white dwarf at the core of their little universe. A race that can only find the stars by digging beneath their feet and finding a way to pierce the neutron eggshell of their sphere.

So there you are Jeff, your own Dyson sphere-formed naturally by preposterous but not implausible forces in the SFU. Please use it responsibly—I don't build a Dyson sphere for just ANYONE The LAST time I designed one it was for the Tholians but the construction crew didn't follow the blueprints

regards
Stacy

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, May 20, 2007 - 11:19 pm: Edit

Stacy,

Why not have a "shepherd" for the dyson sphere?

Voyager had its "Care taker", ST:NG had Q and a number of other "omnipotent" beings and ST:TOS had "the Squire of gothos", the Organians and a few others.

Such a concept clearly exists in the "source Data"... now the question is if TPTB wil "buy into it"?!?!

Anyway, "back to the sphere..." I figured (being a layman and not having done any calculations to deterimine validity...) if the shell were of similar density to that of earth, being about 24,000 miles thick the mass of the shell would be sufficient to provide the approximate equilvilent of 1 'G' worth of gravity... I will defer to others to determine if such an assumption is valid.

The question of Tensile strength is next (which I presume you dealt with by positing the presence of neutron matter...) I would see a neutron "core" or a possible matrix (lets call it rebar!!!) mesh as a possible solution.

Heck, for all I know the "star" in the center of the thing is a sentient being and "thought" the sphere into creation for protection from "x" danger... and for reasons of its own, have decided to allow life to evolve on the interior surface of the dyson sphere...

Well, Stacy, all I can say is thanks for helping out... I will try to be rsponsible... but I feel obligated to point out to you that the general contractor in actually asseblling the project is the "same team" that didnt follow the blue prints the last time...

From a Game-Balance POV I have to admit that a Dyson Sphere 1 AU distance from a star (such as Sol) would result in the planetary surface area of some 10,000 earths... I just don't see a new race being intruduced into F&E with its own Dysons sphere with a income of 50,000 Economic Points... (the income of a single major world is 5 EP...so 10,000*5=50,000)

If the whole Federation (fall year 168) has an 6 month income of 221 EP... well "unbalacing" is just not strong enough to describe the disparity in economic terms.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 12:28 am: Edit

Jeff
I think we need to deal with one notion right off the top. The notion that a Dyson sphere would be worth that many economic points is absurd. The only resource other than space it will have in abundance is energy.

Now 24th Century Trek aside I do not think that they have established that they can transform energy into matter in the SFU.

Further we need to go back to what Dr. Dyson said when he posited the Dyson Sphere in the first place. He said "Malthusian Pressures" would impel the construction of the sphere. Which means we'll be dealing with a severe overpopulation problem. Which strongly suggests that they do NOT have warp drive.

I see a Dyson Sphere as being sparse on resources (As was Ringworld if you go back and look at the books). They would probably comb the skies in near space looking for stray asteroids and comets.

The shell would be thin because the amount of solid matter in a star system is not that large. Dyson only posited a shell meters thick and it would probably not be good for the long term stability of the shell to do much in the way of mining. So before we all get caught up in EP ecstasy lets keep that in mind. I've seen this notion that Dyson Sphere's were some sort of economic bonanza bandied about but I don't buy it. What they have as I said is a LOT of room and a LOT of assessable energy.

These same limitations of resources would apply equally as well to a "natural" sphere as a constructed one as they use the exact same materials. If you want the stuff to build starships out of you're better off mining planets or asteroids for them.

So I don't buy that they are economic treasure houses. That doesn't mean they are without value. Owning your own Dyson sphere is a prestige item.

The Tholian sphere is an entirely different critter. First off they have a technology to use in construction not generally available—web. Secondly it's only about the same as a large planet and is more to create optimal living space for Tholians than as an energy collector (although I imagine it does that as well).

Now, as for Godlike entities—go for it. But I thought the point was to have a NATURAL sphere?

As for the direction the "construction crew" went I have no real complaints. After all I essentially dropped off the specs and vanished for 16 years. Had I been present to advocate for my original ideas things may have gone differently. After all I had the Tholians building the sphere AFTER they got to our galaxy. The direction things have gone are just as interesting if not more so than my notions.

Having said that I am still intrigued by the notion of starship combat in and around a full scale sphere so I support your notion of codifying some rules about the whole thing.

In the original mini campaign I created way back when I had the Coalition crashing the gates of the sphere fighting down a passage not unlike Blackfoot Pass dealing with multiple layers of web sending wave after wave of ships until they finally get inside only to find out it was even WORSE in there-which was why the final scenario in the mini-campaign was "The Light At The End Of The Tunnel Is An Oncoming Train."

Keep at it Jeff-and Google "Dyson Spheres".

regards
Stacy

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 03:24 am: Edit

Stacy, actually replicators can create matter in the SFU. When I wrote the Replicator article for GPD4e I didn't include that capability but the boss insisted that this be possible but require lots more energy but within the capabilities of a starship and its replicator system.
It is known that to create matter takes an HUGE amount of energy, like more than a starship could create but those numbers have been fudged. Also when you create matter you much create an equal amount of anti-matter. This might then be stored as fuel and could offset the energy cost to something more reasonable.

=============
I've been intending to read up on this thread and read part of the original proposal. I cannot see a natural sphere being created by asteroids melted together by a sun gone nova or in any way like that. The natural stresses are FAR too great.
As to Tholian spheres the answer was easy using the ingredients of the already established background. Plus they are very small compared to a real Dyson Sphere with a real star at the center.
One of the huge engineering problems of a Dyson Sphere is the star itself. The amount of energy that would be hitting the sphere would be intollerable by any life (probably even THolian life). Without our atmosphere and magnetic field on Earth the sun would lay the planet barren. The radiation hitting the sun light side of the moon is nearly instantly blinding and very deadly without serious protection. How does one attain that in a Dyson Sphere? How does that naturally occur on a naturally occuring sphere?
If the asteroids melted in the first place they would never become solid and the solar winds would blow them apart.
Gavitational forces and even the movement of the galaxy would spin the asteroids around the sun and eventually bring them into a planar orbit.

Blackfoot pass must be some form of nebula made up of rocky particles so as to be more like an asteroid field than a gasious/dusty nebula. From far away it would look like a dark nebula, lit only around it's edges (and we would have seen it by now too ) My theory is the pass was created by space life. Blackfoot Pass asteroid nebula might have been created when a very heavily planet populated solar system's star up and disappeared and the lack of a star send the planets out of control, eventually all crashing into one another and breaking into a cloud of asteroids.


Anyway, I catch up on this later this week. My big job is over and I should have some time.

By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 08:55 am: Edit

Or Blackfoot pass was created by the destruction of a Dyson Sphere?

What happens to a Tholian sphere after the Seltorians conquer it and it is no longer being maintained?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 10:56 am: Edit

Well, automated systems would continue working for a while but assuming those failed it would collapse in and break up but not into asteroids but into chunks that were of clearly artificial origin.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 04:05 pm: Edit

Without looking, I seem to remember that the asteroid field/annomoly that forms Black Foot Pass is more than 100 parsecs long... now, for some reason, I'm thinking that a parsec is equal to 1.67 light years (and again, I'm not near my books so I cna't verify that number) so if it is 1.67 LY per parsec... then the rock field were taliking about is 167 light years long... and given that the galactic disk is on the order of 1500 yight years from top to bottom we are "talking" about a column of mass 167x167x1500 lightyears that has ONE single passage through it. (emphasis, not shouting)

A Dyson sphere (huge as we aretalking in terms oif SFB's and the scope of earths orbit about the sun) is a tiny fraction of the size of the asteroid field the forms black foot pass.

you could house hundreds or thousands of dyson spheres in such an area.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 04:48 pm: Edit

*sighs*

1 parsec roughly equals 3.26 ly.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 06:24 pm: Edit

Mike, Thanks, I wasnt sure of the correct number and had no reference books with me to check it out.

but that make's the "annomoly" even larger at some 326x326x1500 light years of mostly (supposedly) asteroids...

more than large enough for the area to contain a number of stars...

Even if the dyson sphere is unstable... asteroids within a star's gravity well will (eventually) "pull in" any debris within a certain area (I suppose defined by the size and gravitation) of the star.

Such a star system wouldnt need a dyson sphere in that case, as the mass of asteroids beyond the stars gravity effectively form a shell of asteroids around the star...

If a race evolved on planet in such a star system... they would be isolated and quarrantined until a passage out could be located...

and having the accumulated wealth of all those asteroids available close to the home star system it might well be a very wealthy society...

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 07:42 pm: Edit

I did the real world math and found that our asteroid belt contained about 1% or the mass needed for a Tholian Sphere.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 08:41 pm: Edit

Not a problem for the Mass of asteroids in the Black Foot Pass scenarios... the is farr more mass because of the huge volume available.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 09:27 pm: Edit

Loren
I conceded at the outset that the circumstances proposed in my scenario were to say the least preposterous. But the SFU is FULL of physical divergences from reality. For instance gravity waves move at 32 times the speed of light. So why let minor violations of physics and causality stand in our way? I mean if we DID we'd have to junk the game ;)

I would submit that if the sphere had neutronium as it's foundation material it would probably be well equal to any and all gravitational stresses. Now I grant you that's an assertion—but it's not like I can look up the tensile strength of degenerate matter online.

As for the replicators...well if it's official it's official. But I would submit that a race building a NON-Tholian Dyson sphere probably doesn't have them. If they did they probably wouldn't NEED a Dyson sphere in the same way that warp drive would eliminate it's necessity.

Perhaps it would make sense to set an economic MAXIMUM level of production for things like Dyson Spheres? I mean the idea of 100% efficiency in economic production beggars the imagination anyway.

The whole notion of Dyson Spheres was created in the context where 186,000,000 miles per second is NOT just a good idea it's the LAW! It was a thought experiment as to what a race might do in response to Malthusian pressures and we're imposing it in the context of a universe where "C" is a floor not a ceiling. So we need to explore WHAT would cause a race to build a full fledged Dyson Sphere? Bearing in mind however MUCH it produces economically when complete the cost to BUILD it would take the near totality of economic output of a planet for 1000 generations and I'm probably lowballing that.

Now the Tholians are obviously an exception because they have a unique technology that would streamline the process but ordinary races would have to do it the hard way.

Anyway just musing about it all.

regards
Stacy

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 10:25 pm: Edit

"...ordinary races would have to do it the hard way."

You got that right. I sort of got lucky with the Tholians. The various seeming diconnected pieces of Tholian background suddenly fit like puzzel pieces when I put them together in the right way. Someone would likely have done the same eventually but I'm proud I did it first.


The Tholians built Sphere not just because they could but because no place else was suitable for them to live well. The temperatures they need to live at means natural environments have such a delicate balance as to almost never occure. THere are planets they COULD live on just no that were found to be less than harsh. Sphere's on the other hand give the Tholians a near perfect environment. A Sphere is a Tholian Paradise.

So some of the Tholians reason would fit other races as well. The need inspires the means.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 02:16 pm: Edit

Jeff
Here is a good article about the kinds of conditions that lead to a race building a Dyson Sphere

http://www.futurehi.net/archives/000105.html

regards
Stacy

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 03:25 pm: Edit

Stacy,

Thanks, Interesting read, I'll have to study it when I have time.

By George M. Ebersole (George) on Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 01:01 am: Edit

Jeff Wile (Jswile); back in '99 several of us discussed Dyson Spheres and possible rules. I thinkn SVC DL'd them for future development. We were mainly talking about Tholia, but the discussion bled into Dyson spheres in general, and how a race might engineer and use one.

I'm not sure, but I think you were around then ... weren't you? I think Jeremy Williams was part of the discussion at the time, along with a few others.