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	Archive through June 18, 2007	25		06/18 12:23pm

The current rules have the explosion strength reduced into or out of the web. The only hex where the explosion would have full effect would be the T-bomb hex itself.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 01:36 am: Edit

Well then obviously disregard my comments concerning t-bombs but the rest of my points are still valid. The T-bombs were an afterthought anyway as we never played with mines of any variety.

They could be used however to damage the PC reinforcements coming in OUTSIDE the web.

regards
Stacy

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 09:58 am: Edit

I think we are all agreed that unless the Klingons can amass a LOT more than twice the Tholians BPV in fighters it is going to be another Klingon Fighter turkey shoot.

The question I raise AGAIN, is what range would you have your fighters circling the outer ring and in what formation?

NOTE: the above scenario was BEFORE there were mega packs, faster versions of the base fighters, and such. I think the THolians would win it in a landslide.

By Todd Jolley (Tjolley) on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 11:04 am: Edit

If the fighters are circling the outer ring of web, they die..does the formation they choose to die in really matter?

The only chance the Klingons have is to dive into the web to kill/drive off the P/F's and Web tenders so that there is a chance the web will dissipate enough for them to get through to the second layer.

The only question left is do they have enough attrition units to absorb the horrendous losses they will incur to complete that task?

I'm thinking with speed 15 fighters and a web strength starting at say 30, you would need to plan on losing 120-150 fighters to break the outer ring of the ring assuming the Tholians can consistently kill 8-10 fighters a turn for the 15 turns or so it would take for the web to deteriorate to 15.

Add in another 120-150 to repeat on layer 2, and then have about 50-ish fighters in reserve to plunge into the last layer and pulverize the battle station with Phaser 3's before their number is reduced too far.

Total fighters required then then: 290-350..give or take.

Assumed Tholian force: 1 Battle Station, 1 flight of PF's (or equivalent fighters), 1 Web Tender

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 12:23 pm: Edit

'NOTE: the above scenario was BEFORE there were mega packs, faster versions of the base fighters, and such. I think the THolians would win it in a landslide.'

Also, the new base rules pretty much guarantee Tholian victory.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 04:38 pm: Edit

Well then the scenario needs to be revised. According to the Timeline this battle marked the start of Operation Nutcracker because it revealed how "weak" the Tholians were.

I think the most obvious revision is the web strength/ weapon status. But I'm soliciting suggestions.

regards
Stacy

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 04:48 pm: Edit

Changing the BATS to a BS would be nice....

By Joseph Riggs (Junior) on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 04:53 pm: Edit

I'm not sure how likely it would be for the Tholians to leave a BS on the Klingon border, though. I would imagine that they'd all been converted long before Y177, ESPECIALLY on the Klingon border (since the other two neighbors are largely inclined to leave the Tholians alone).

It's possible that there were still some Base Stations active behind the front lines, but then you'd need an explanation for why the fighter swarms managed to get that far.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 05:31 pm: Edit

Actually, the Assault on the Holdfast scenario needs to be revised as well, IMO. When that scenario was originally written both the web rules and the base rules were quite different from the the current rules. The scenario as it currently stands, again IMO, strongly favors the Tholians. And the "historical" result would occur only if the Tholians made a major blunder or if the Klingons had spectacular luck.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 05:59 pm: Edit

One big difference I have noticed between the SFB web rules and the FC web rules is that the maximum web strength is different. In SFB, the maximum strength is 35, which means that a ship can theoretically be trapped forever (without being dragged back out with a tractor). It also means that the web is impenetrable until weakened. In FC, the maximum strength is 32, which means a ship (which can move 32 in FC, as opposed to just 31 in SFB) can punch through in a single turn.

So, how about limiting the maximum web strength to 31?

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 06:23 pm: Edit

Mike are you proposing overall or for basis of this scenario?

For those who wonder web max strength was once 50 and NO phasers no even Tholian could fire through it. That was in the original boxed edition way back when.

Overall I think a more practical solution (And one more likely to get SVC or SPP approval) to "fixing" either this OR Assault on the Holdfast will be in adjusting either the OB or starting conditions.

It should be noted that from a STRATEGIC POV bottling up a Tholian bats is almost as good as destroying as it cannot respond to other fleet elements of the Klingond making a deeper penetration while under seige.

But that's beyond the scope of SFB. I suppose you can say VICTORY CONDITIONS: Destroy or immobilize Tholian fleet elements at BATS for 90 turns-but how fun is that?

I should ask how many of you have actually sat down and played either of these scenarios from either side?

regards
Stacy

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 09:10 pm: Edit

I've played Assault on the Holdfast from both sides, once as the Klingon and twice as the Tholian. I haven't played the other scenario because I have very little interest in playing a scenario with 200 or so fighters. Even a small Tholian base assault scenario can take a long time to actually play.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 09:42 pm: Edit

Did the scenario from the Klingon side.

Yes, it traumatized me for life.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 10:02 pm: Edit

First time I played Assault On The Holdfast was while I was in grad school with Stewart Frazier as the Klingons. His comment was that someone in the Klingon High Command must have a grudge against the commander of that detachment.

Would most people agree the best chance for someone to win is for the Tholian player to be stupid?
regards
Stacy

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 10:27 pm: Edit

Stupid, blind, drunk, and asleep.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 11:04 pm: Edit

My personal experience is that the only guarantee of victory is 10 to 1 odds.
regards
Stacy

By Jeff Laikind (J_Laikind) on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 11:39 pm: Edit

Sorry if it wasn't clear. That limit of 200 fighter was all ever received, including the 20 that start on the carriers.

IOW, 180 or 186 additional fighters will show up in 20 to 30 groups.

I also didn't read well enough (it was late) to check the terrain set up.

The base is in 2215, but is not adjacent to the web. The inner web is at 2217-2416-2414-2213-2014-2016 (12 hexes total length). Each layer is the normal 2 hexes away, so the last layer is 36 hexes total.

There is also a 7 hex planet at 3415.

Tholian reinforcements enter from the 42xx edge, while the Klingons enter from the 01xx edge.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 12:18 am: Edit

Jeff
Thanks for the archive work.

The planet makes an interesting terrain feature but I doubt it would come into play-except Tholian reinforcements might use it to duck around to avoid Klingon fire incoming.

But a total 200 fighters probably isn't enough to do the job-if the job is destroying the base.

I know that the few times I played against Tholians I found that if I was willing to be MORE patient than the Tholian eventually he'd make a blunder—largely out of the desire just to make something HAPPEN.

By the way you almost HAVE to do free movement. Plotted movement and NOTHING would ever happen except by chance.

It's beginning to sound like the Doomsday web revisions were necessary but not sufficient to balancing web for play.

I'm intrigued by the mention of the system in Fed Commander for web—can anyone tell me more?

regards
Stacy

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 01:11 am: Edit

Stacy,

From what I can tell, the web pretty much works the same in FC as in SFB, as far as the mechanics of it go. The power requirements to build and degredate web is (I think) the same between FC and SFB. However, there are a few operational differences.

The first main difference that I have already mentioned is that the max strength is capped at 32 instead of 35. This means that a ship (ships in FC have a max speed of 32, not 31) can penetrate a full strength web strand in a single turn.

The second difference is that there is no breakdown risk when ramming the web at any speed. In conjunction with the above, this really makes breeching webs much more "doable".

The third difference (for the other way), there is no penalty for Tholian phasers fired through web. They fire just as if the web wasn't there.

Those are the main differences I can think of.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 09:29 am: Edit

Based on Jeff Laikind's description, the scenario with 200 fighters (which, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I haven't played) is illegal under current rules. A 36-hex web is not legal (though I presume it was when the scenario was written). The maximum allowable is 30 hexes.