Below is the proposal for a new Federation weapon. Persuming this proposal doesn't receive SVC's "this way lies madness" endorsement I this topic idea with create some discussion.

PHOTON BEAM (Ex.xx)

The photon beam functions similar to a mauler but only uses warp power. Warp power is stored in warp capacitors and discharged as an intense photon beam. Unlike a mauler the ship is not built around the photon beam; its power source is an array of warp capacitors. The warp engines are not connected to the warp capacitors. The Federation is the only race that has photon beam technology.

The photon beam uses the mauler rules in (E8.0) except as modified below.

(Ex.1) DESIGNATION

(Ex.11) SSD: The photon beam is shown on the SSD only as a black arrow connected to the warp capacitor boxes. The photon beam itself cannot be destroyed unless the ship is destroyed.

(Ex.13) DAMAGE: Warp capacitor boxes are hit on torpedo hits. A damage point is allocated to any warp capacitor box at the owning player’s option. Warp capacitor boxes destroyed before the impulse of firing cannot be used to fire the photon beam.

(Ex.2) FIRING PROCEDURE

(Ex.21) ENERGY: The photon beam is fired by discharged warp energy into it. Warp energy is stored in the warp capacitors. Damage is proportional to the number of warp capacitors boxes used that impulse and range (E8.22). Warp energy is applied at the instant of firing.
(Ex.212) Each warp capacitor box holds two points of warp energy as a standard load or three points as an overload. Standard and overloaded warp capacitor cannot be fired during the same impulse.
(Ex.213) Firing the photon beam, at true range of 0-1, using overloaded warp capacitors causes feedback. One point of feedback damage is caused for each four points of warp energy discharged as a photon beam (round fractions of ½ point or more up and fractions less than ½ point down).

(Ex.22) PHOTON BEAM DAMAGE CHART

Range: 0-1; damage is double the amount of warp energy discharged.
Range: 2-4; damage is equal to the amount of warp energy discharged.
Range: 5-8; damage is one-half the amount of warp energy discharged.

(Ex.27) ALTERNATE FIRIG ARCS: The photon beam does not use the mauler’s alternate firing arcs.

(Ex.28) SHOCK: Firing the photon beam subjects the firing ship to shock damage effects (D23.0).


(Ex.3) POWER FOR PHOTON BEAM OPERATIONS

(Ex.31) WARP CAPACITORS: Energy to fire the photon beam comes from warp power stored in the warp capacitors. During energy allocation two points of warp power are allocated to each specific warp capacitor box. The warp capacitor box can be used during the same turn as a standard load.
(Ex.311) On a subsequent turn one point of warp power can be allocated, during energy allocation, to each specific warp capacitor box. The warp capacitor box can be used during the same turn as an overload.
(Ex.312) If standard and overloaded warp capacitors are not discharged on the turn energy is allocated then the ship must either discharge the warp capacitors (E1.24) or allocate ½ point of energy per warp capacitor, for each turn, until the capacitor is discharged as a photon beam (including the turn of firing). Energy can come from any source.
(Ex.313) The ½ point of power allocated to hold a warp capacitor may not be combined with ½ point of warp power to over load the capacitor.
(Ex.314) A standard loaded warp capacitor could be overloaded using reserve warp power (H7.48) on the impulse of firing.


I do have a ship designed for the photon beam (both SSD and miniture). I used an NCL saucer, the pylon from a SCS center engine, and HDW lower hull. The lower hull has nine warp capacitor boxes. Since the ship has 36 warp I am thinking sperate shock rules for ship are needed.

Proposed ship shock rules:
1. If the ship uses more than 30 points of warp from the engines, for any purpose, and moves greater than speed 10 the ship incurrs one shock point for each point of warp used above 30;

2. If the ship fires the photon beam at a speed greater than 10 the shock point incurred from firing the weapon are multipled by 1.5 --- above speed 20 shock points are doubled.

3. If the ship fires photon torpedos within eight impulses of firing the photon beam the ship incurrs one shock point for each photon tube fired.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 10:28 pm: Edit

A couple of questions.

Could you give a worked example of how this works with an actual ship?

As best I can understand what is written a Fed CL with this conversion, the regular CL will be chucking out an average of 16 points of damage at R8 every other turn and the Photon beam converted CL would generate an average of 3 points of damage every turn at R8.
At R1 the regular CL is generating a max of 32 damage every other turn and the Photon beam CL is generating 12 damage every turn.
Am I really following this correctly?

Can the Photon beam be fired concurrently with Photon torpedoes? This seems to be implied in the shock rules.

Can a standard load, photon-beam fire out to R10?...using the mauler arc diagram.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 12:22 am: Edit

MJC,

The photon beam uses the mauler firing arc and a modified range table. The ship I designed has 9 warp capacitor boxes. Using a standard load, 2 point of warp per box equals 18 point of energy. At range 0-1 this will do 36 points of damage. Firing all nine boxes, 27 points of warp energy, as overloads will do 54 points of damage.

While it may be possible to fire both the beam and photons during the same impulse arming and holding both weapons would take a while.

The photon beam looses much of its punch at range 5-8 (1/2 the energy used). The maximum range is 8, the same as an overloaded photon.

I don't think the warp capacitors can't be retro fitted into a CL or even a CA saucer.

I am intending this to be a base buster weapon developed during the late GW. The idea is it would be a consort to the BCJ class.

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 01:43 am: Edit

I'm very much up for creative ideas, and I've always like the feds . . . however,
Phaser-1
Phaser-2
Phaser-3
Photons
drones
Phaser-G
Plasma-F
Conjectual Mauler already that can be used for this purpose
swacs (unique to the feds)

Do we really need to see one more weapon for them?

Again, no insult intended. Its just my fed SSD folder is thicker than anything else right now.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 07:12 am: Edit

I'm not so sure about a base buster...I mean the Feds already have the DD+ but as a fun stellar shadows thing it should be pretty cool. I already have a fairly positive veiw of it but I'ld like to see it being equal to rather than worse than; the firepower of the photon.
That being said, a bit of an outline as to what the ship can do in comparison to just keeping the photon as is, would help.
At any rate, keep the good ideas comming.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 12:57 pm: Edit

Why not just have the Federation reverse engineer maulers? It seems less roundabout.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 11:03 pm: Edit

John,

Per (U7.28) maulers is foreign technology for Klingons and Andromedans only. Maulers are conjectural for the Feds. Two were published in R9. The MCL, an NCL variant, has 24 batteries. This will yield 48 points of damage at range 0-1. As you know you can use available warp and impulse power also. The mauler takes up the whole ship. A mauler can fire several times per turn, has a range of 10, and no feedback damage.

The proposed photon beam is different that a mauler: The maximum power available is limited to what is in the warp capacitors; maximum range is 8, the same as overloaded photons; overloaded shots taken at range 0-1 cause feedback damage; it can be fired several times per turn; there is a holding cost. While the photon beam has some mauler abilities there are more differences than similarities; it is closer to a photon torpedo.

While the current proposal has the beam emitter as part of the hull this could be changed to a box on the SSD that can be hit. The photon beam and warp capacitors only taken up room in the lower hull; the ship isn’t built around the weapon, but does required a specially designed ship to mount the weapon. I added SEP for the ship using more than 30 engine warp, firing the photon beam at speed greater than 10, and firing photons within eight impulses of firing the photon beam.

I am trying to build something different that a mauler, which uses CW and HDW hull parts. It will take some planning to get the ship, without it being crippled, close enough to base to do any damage. It adds a different dynamic to base assaults than photon volleys. I am intending this to be a late GW development, which would see combat during the ISC and Andromedan conflicts.

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 12:14 am: Edit

I'm still confused. What's wrong with a photon volley? Prox fuses out to range 30 have a 50% to hit for 4!! points each.
Honestely, its one of the best base buster weapons in the game, if not THE best.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 12:58 am: Edit

Glen,

I am suggesting this as a weapon to augment photon volleys. Post GW the fleets are more along the lines of 3-5 ship squadrons. This ship has a weapon which would help these small squadrons deal with Andro bases and defending ships. You can load and fire same turn.

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 01:25 am: Edit

Joseph,
As much as I am against adding a new weapon system for the feds, I am equally open minded and eager to see how this proposal develops. I hope my pessimism doesn't dampen your creativity.
I do believe that the photon, after all those pre-gw years should show some new advances, but I do wonder if the x-tech era reflects those changes. Of course, there is more than one way to improve a weapons system.
Any further comments from me will be more constructive instead of what I have been demonstrating.
I apologize for my negativity.

By Joe Stevenson (Alligator) on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 01:42 am: Edit

"The warp engines are not connected to the warp capacitors"


How is that even possible?

It seems to me that you are trying to get a mauler without the downside of a mauler.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 01:42 am: Edit

Actually the AWR refit was a defacto Photon improvement so it's okay to let the X1 Photon be the next step...but let's not get too technical.
I'm not really seeing what the drawback is beyond having to put warp power into the system and running the risk of shock. Why wouldn't this be an upgrade to every single Phot-tube in the fleet?

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 09:28 am: Edit

MJC,

Isn't a refit to any ship and doesn't use a photon tube to fire the beam.

Joe S,

I am not following your post. The weapon is powered by warp energy stored in warp capacitors. The beam has different limitations.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 11:24 am: Edit

Joe,

So a ship could have this AND its normal compliment of Photons?

Too good to be true!

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 02:09 pm: Edit

Joe

Lyrans got maulers too. Don't foregt Lyrans. The Kzinit would sure like to.

A lot of similarities

warp capacitor = mauler batteries. Mauler gets the better end better because batts add reserve power and warp energy is needed for movement.

I think what you meant to say was that the photon beam doesn't draw directly from the enegines the way maulers can.

max Range = 8: Not a big limit since nobody normally uses the 1:2 btacket for maulers.

Causes feedback at range 0-1 is similar to mauler shock. It's a worse limit but only occurs at 0-1. maulers can take shock at all ranges.

Can be fired several times = mauler can be fired several times

Hold cost and overloading are the real definite difference.

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 03:28 pm: Edit

I'm sorry, but this just sounds like an end-around attempt to make the conjectual mauler into a non-conjectual mauler (albiet, a bit limited). Even though I'm not convinced (like I have any real authority here), I'm still listening.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 03:56 pm: Edit

I'm still trying to discern what need this fills for the Feds that would justify the opportunity costs, the R&D expenses, the scientists and engineers and naval architects diverted from other work, etc. What capability does this give the Feds that they don't already have? As Glenn already pointed out, the Feds are quite good at base busting with massed proximity-fuzed photon torpedos. If they have to destroy the base quickly (perhaps inbound enemy reinforcements don't allow adequate time to wear the base down over many turns), photons (overloaded) are good for that, too.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 06:14 pm: Edit

I got to agree with Alan on this one. The Feds are the supreme base busting race. The Photon has its limitations, but busting bases is not one of them.

To compound that, the Feds are already sort of power deprived. The weapon, as described, sounds like a power hog.

If added to existing Fed ships, retaining photons, it will make already demanding power management issues more complex. Feds already crawl when arming photons...try arming this on top of it.

If added to existing Fed ships, replacing photons, it will make what were good multi-role ships fairly one-dimensional. This weapon doesn't sound too hot as an anti-ship weapon.

If we are talking new ships designed to sport both this and photon, with the power to do both simultaneously, what will stop the Fed player from ignoring any extra power added to allow the use of both weapons and just use photons exclusively (with gobs of extra power for speed and EW).

I really do appreciate the attempt to create a new Fed weapon, but I'm not sure they need this (any more than they need true maulers). They already have more weapon options than just about any other race.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 06:20 pm: Edit

Jeremy. Nah

Drive in and hit them with a full spread of OL Photons at the end of the turn.

THEN hit them with the Photon Beam after the turn break...

WAY too powerful if this doesn't take out the Photons.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 06:38 pm: Edit

Observation:

Given a choice between taking this to add to my small three to five ship squadron attacking a base, and taking a standard NCL, why would I have taken the time to build this thing at all? I am better off with the standard NCL. It does not suffer shock and is far more tactically flexible, and will do more damage on an overrun than this thing will, and has a superior power to speed ratio holding its photons than this thing has holding its photon capacitors.

I like Maulers when attacking bases simply because more than anything else all that battery power helps them force a hasty breach in the base's minefield defenses so I can get my other ships close enough to pound the base to chutney.

This thing cannot even do that.

It is more of a tactical liability than an asset (at least in regards to how I have fought, which may be considerably different from some of you other veteran commanders).

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 06:41 pm: Edit

Uh...so this thing can't go fast when it's firing, so probably can't get closer than R3 before getting slapped by 4xP4 for about 70 damage. It then fires doing 27, barely eating half the shield.

Alternatively, it dips into R8, doing 13. That's for a total consumption of 9x3.5 = 31.5 power. That's about half the return on a fusion beam, with shorter range, and far worse than phaser-1s.

What's wrong with photons?

The only advantage this has is a certain amount of resilience: it can take a thunderous volley before the capacitors all get destroyed. It'll be a one-shot suicide ship that's very subject to tractor, of course.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 06:54 pm: Edit

It occures to me that developing new weapons for an existing empire is virually impossible.

On one hand if you make a superior weapon it gets blasted as unbalancing and the question come as to why would the Feds not use this everywhere and/or why wouldn't everyone copy it?

On the other hand if you try to be conservative and make it the equal of other weapons or less powerful it get dismissed with things like, why bother if it's the same or why wouldn't you just use what we already have since it's better.

Over the years of watching this board and the developement of a fair bit of the SFU I have to say that for the most part weapons proposals really only have a chance if they are new X-Tech (small odds but not impossible), new X2 tech (better odds but a long way off), or as a weapon for a new race (good odds if your new race is approved... which is hard to do but not impossible.)
I could be wrong but it seems to me that proposals for existing empires have the longest odds of all. On one hand, that's kind of a bummer as something new might freshen up some races. On the other hand, and I htink this probably more important, it's likely a good thing because it has take so much time and effort to get to the balance that SFB Alpha Octant currently has.

As a little side note. I think that threads like this really do indicate that the time for X1R and Y2 has come for the veteran players of SFB.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 07:58 pm: Edit

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Quote:

On the other hand if you try to be conservative and make it the equal of other weapons or less powerful it get dismissed with things like, why bother if it's the same or why wouldn't you just use what we already have since it's better.

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By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 10:56 pm: Edit

I appreciate the comments however I would to clear up some misunderstandings on the proposed weapon and ship.

There are two items interacting; a new weapon and a new ship. The ship has 36 points of engine-warp. It can operate, using 30 points of engine-warp, and not incur SEPs. So the ship would be similar tactically to an NCA. For each point of engine-warp used above 30 the ship incurs 1 SEP. The ship doesn’t have to power the photon beam. This ship is just as tactically flexible as a NCL. Using the extra six warp has a price.

The photon beam causes the ship to incur SEPs each time it is fired just like a mauler. The SEP level and the number of SEPs incurred from firing hasn’t been set. The SEPS incurred are increased by 50% if the photon beam is fired at a speed above 10. Further the ship will incur additional SEPS if the photons are fired with eight impulse of firing the photon beam; one for each photon fired. The SEPS are additive depending on speed, how much engine warp is used, and if the photons are fired within eight impulses of firing the photon beam.

Damage from 4 overloaded photon torpedoes is 64 points; the to hit percentage decreases with range. The overloaded photon beam is 54 points, but the damage decreases with range, like a mauler; the to hit is a dice role of 2-12. The NCL only has the four photons. The NBC has the photon beam and four photons; has the same percentage hit probability as the NCL for the photons (the average damage at each range bracket is equal for each ship). The photon beam range 5-8 will cause 15 points of damage; range 2-4 will cause 27 points of damage; range 0-1 will cause 54 points of damage. So the NBC has the possibility of causing more damage in an overrun attack than an NCL/NCA.

At WS III multi-turn arming weapons may be assumed to be fully armed (S4.13). Both weapons could be fully armed with overloads. The combination of weapons, to me, allows greater tactically flexibility. The ship allows a number of tactical options, which are limited by SEP level of the ship. Don’t use more than 30 points of engine-warp and don’t arm the photon beam the NBC flies like a regular cruiser. If the players uses the photon beam the player would have plan how to set up the shot so as not run out of warp or suffer a shock breakdown.

I hope this helps to better explain how the ship and weapon work

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 01:16 pm: Edit

How many shock points do you expect the resulting design to have? If the NBC can run full blast for several turns, all the shock numbers won't matter. I would suggest dropping the excess warp shock concept; it is non-standard enough that players will often forget that rule.

The major advantage of the photon beam is the amount of torpedo hits. Loading only some of the capacitor leaves the ship heavily padded. The effects in later turns are something I have not figured out.

Overall, I would prefer a stock photon design. Longer range fire and simple commonality of tactics more than compensates for a slightly improved ability to compensate for a ECM shift.