As an analogue to Drone Bombardment ships, could Plasma Races construct ships equipped with the facilities to launch a small, unmanned craft (w/warp boosters?) on a tame-boar heading which would, at a given range, fire a stasis Plasma-F at the nearest valid target?

On the SSD, it would be represented by a single box, which could have four boosters. each time the weapon is fired, it would place a stasis Plasma-F, which was charged prior in that box by the ship, into one of the boosters and fire it. This box would be incapable of firing them without the boosters and the boosters would have to travel a specific distance (8 or 16 hexes?) before being able to activate.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 10:53 am: Edit

So these are like disposable Plasma Fighters on Tame Boar control instead of remote control or manned?

By Michael Lui (Michaellui) on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 02:14 pm: Edit

William

Check out "Plasma Torpedo Drones" in the "Other Proposal" section. Just put the "F" in a Type H drone and you're all set.

By William J Gauthier (Emperorvortia) on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 04:01 pm: Edit

M. Grafton - Yes, they are like a disposable warp booster fitted Plasma-F Fighter on tame bore. The idea is that a ship could carry a number of these without the necessary support assets for a Carrier, since the weapon itself would probably be about the size of a two space drone, and it's launcher a little larger than a G-Rack. Whilst they are similar to a Plasma-F Fighter, they cannot be recovered and reloaded, they lack a Phaser-3 for Drone defense, and cannot maneuver to get a shot on a weakened or downed shield on their own.

Michael Lui -

I saw this topic, but from what I read of it it seemed [i]very[/i] restrictive, to the point of being almost useless. The original proposal included a drone with a move speed of one. Ideally I see this weapon system as having a speed of between 12 and 32. Also, an H-Drone is a pretty massive size weapon. Currently, ship cannot launch H-Drones, and I would assume any such system would be very limited in it's ammo capacity, not to mention that players of Drone races would immediately demand to be able to mount H-Racks on their vessels. Likewise, as has been brought up in the Plasma Torp Drones thread, a Plasma Torpedo Drone would be so significantly superior to either Drones or Plasma that everyone would insist on nothing but.

A weapon with the longevity of a drone but which can turn into a Plasma warhead before it runs into the Phaser-3s on the target's ship is nothing short of a nightmare weapon. That is the reason why my weapon system will require that the weapon be launched on a tame boar trajectory so as to significantly limit the advantages of such a set up. Likewise, such a weapon system will have a hefty myopia area where they could not engage enemy vessels at all. a Dual-Stage Plasma Torpedo launcher could not shotgun, Envelop, or launch a PPT, and would probably be replacing Plasma-S or Plasma-R Launchers, not regular Fs.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 04:12 pm: Edit

William,

I am unsure if this would ever be considered seriously.

Unless you limit the warhead to the equivalent of a Plasma D or K

By William J Gauthier (Emperorvortia) on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 04:41 pm: Edit

Well, obviously, balance is a matter of playtesting. If it comes down to it that it needs to be a Plasma-D, then D it is. Or, we could make the booster more vulnerable to enemy fire, or we could extend the myopia distance. The concept, however, is a sound one, I think. The Plasma races really have no answer to a drone races Drone Bombardment ships, which places them at a significant disadvantage. I would think at the very least they would do everything in their power to come up with something to counter it. Even if this led to failed prototypes which used Plasma-Ks, I would think that the discrepency would drive some level of innovation on the subject.

Personally, I don't see a Plasma-F warhead as too unbalancing. It's on a tame boar trajectory, which means that the enemy could easily just get out of the way, or at least get far enough away that the damage would be negligible. The Launcher would still have to charge up a new Plasma-F every three turns, so the firing rate vs. Drones would still be a big handicap. And the fact that the vessel would be very limited in it's ability to engage targets at short range would likewise mean that such a vessel would need to be protected by conventional Plasma Torp ships. It's only advantage is it's ability to perform a Drone bombardment like role, and it's larger warhead is balanced against it's lower firing rate, power requirement, minimum range restrictions, and the ability of the target to outrun the warhead once launched.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 07:56 pm: Edit

I haven't even read this and I like it.

By William J Gauthier (Emperorvortia) on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 10:14 am: Edit

Thank you Steve, I appreciate it. Obviously, some details like the number of hits the booster can take before it is destroyed, the speed of the booster, etc, will have to be worked out, but I think it's definitely not only something which could be made to work in-universe, but would fulfil an important strategic niche without unbalancing the game.

I'll see if I can't write up some rules and playtest it a little. Obviously, you can rework it however you feel necessary.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 01:08 pm: Edit

It would give races like the Gorn *some* answer to the Disruptor/Photon races hanging back at long range and using proxes.

One of the things Jeremy Gray and I looked at was just how badly the Gorn would fare if invaded by the Feds in a campaign. Range-30 prox blasts on their bases... ugh. At least the Roms can cloak.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 02:06 pm: Edit

I really like the concept, but there are a few issues.

1) What is to prevent ships from using these all the time against all kinds of opponents? Ammunition?

2) 4 in a single special box would require new SSDs. How about 4 in a shuttle box? Already have a hatch and deck crew there anyway. 3? This would allow existing ships and SSDs to serve.

3) Who could use these? JUST What the Feds need (note they have "Leader" ships with Pl F), as well as the Isc. Limmit it to the Gorns and Roms? Technobabble why?

4) Cost? Availability? These would be GREAT accompanied by your manned shuttle/ PF strike.

By William J Gauthier (Emperorvortia) on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 10:44 pm: Edit

M. Grafton -

1) Well, having a myopia of 16 hexes to strike with your heavy weapons should be a hefty penalty, I should think. They could also be under the same S8 restrictions as Drone Bombardment ships (1 per 3, maximum 3 per fleet).
The idea is that the launchers configured for Dual Stage Plasma Torps CANNOT fire as a standard Plasma F Torpedo.

2) Well, I am thinking that this would be a Drone Bombardment equivalent weapon system, meaning there would be drone bombardment equivalent designs. a DSP-Bombardment Cruiser, etc would be the next step in the process. Each box would have four shots, before requiring reloading from ship stocks like a Drone launcher.

3) Gorns and Romulans definitely. I can see the ISC shying away from it since they already have an effective range weapon (the PPD), but maybe they could replace PPD vessels in their Echelon with Dual-Stage Plasma Ships on a one for one basis. The Feds should NEVER get this tech. For one, they aren't really major Plasma users, and for another thing, they already have Drone Bombardment vessels. Technobabble isn't really necessary. It's simply a matter of the fact that There really isn't a need to take up space on a production line producing a weapon when something else they already have already fulfills that niche.

4) If you're asking what the BPV cost is, I wouldn't begin to be able to tell you. Availability should be as Drone Bombardment Cruisers.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 11:37 pm: Edit

There's long-range within a conflict and there's drone bombardment and the two are not the same.

You would need dedicated bombardment (Plasma bombardment?) ships with launchers replacing the torpedoes and cargo boxes.

Since plasma is harder to kill, Fewer of these things would be needed for the same degree of bombardment and fewer launch frames would fit in a cargo box.

This is a new capability for the plasma side. I can't see the ISC NOT picking it up.

Since the Feds have DB ships, they don't get this.

Maybe the Roms got Klink help and the gorns got Fed help and the ISC picked it up from the two of them.

By William J Gauthier (Emperorvortia) on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 11:44 pm: Edit

That was my idea: Dedicated vessels with the Torps replaced with Dual-Stage Long-Range Plasma Torpedoes. The firing rate for a Plasma Bombardment vessel will be much slower (needs 3 turns to arm the torpedo) than a Drone Bombardment vessel, so that should bring the strength of the bombardment in line.

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 09:15 am: Edit

Do you have a set of rules written up yet? I would like to see what you have so far.

I do agree that once one race has it all plasma races will eventually get it.

I agree with John V. in that are you talking about a long range plasma weapon or a plasma bombardment weapon?

By William J Gauthier (Emperorvortia) on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 07:56 pm: Edit

Not written yet, but I'm working on it. How about this? Ordinarily, you can launch it with a 10 turn range, but if you pay double the energy on the last turn of arming, it becomes a 50 turn range capable of firing on a wild boar course. What do you think? Suggestions? Comments?

By William J Gauthier (Emperorvortia) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 12:44 pm: Edit

Okay, how are these for rules?

FPXX.0 - DUAL STAGE LONG-RANGE PLASMA TORPEDO LAUNCHER

This type of Plasma Torpedo Launcher was designed by the Plasma races in an attempt to match the long range abilities of the Type III drone. Instead of using the ordinary firing method, the Pl-DS Launcher loads a Plasma-F Torpedo frozen in stasis into a small disposable booster, which is then fired. Once the booster has launched, sensors scan for potential targets, and once one comes in range, it fires the Plasma-F Torpedo seeking that target.

FPXX.1 - Launcher Specifications

FPXX.11 - SSD: Each “Pl-DS” box on the SSD represents one Dual Stage Long-Range Plasma Torpedo Launcher, and can arm and/or fire one torpedo at a time. Each Pl-DS Launcher holds four boosters.

FPXX.2 - Arming Procedure

FPXX.21 - PROCEDURE: Pl-DS Launchers are armed in the same way as Plasma-F Launchers except as described below. Effectively, the Launcher is creating a Plasma-F Torpedo and placing it in stasis upon one of the boosters.

FPXX.22 - HELD WHEN ENTERING A SCENARIO: The stasis boxes on the boosters do not have the same long-term containment fields that a full launcher has. As a result, Pl-DS Launchers load the Plasma-F torpedo into the boosters seconds before launching. Pl-DS Launchers may start any scenario with a single Torpedo in stasis ready to be launched. All Boosters are NOT preloaded with Pl-Fs.

FPXX.3 - Launching

FPXX.31 - PROCEDURE: A Dual Stage Plasma Torpedo may be launched during the Impulse Activity Segment of any impulse during the turn in which arming is completed.
FPXX.311 - If a completely armed torpedo is not launched during the final turn of arming, it may be held over into the next turn or any subsequent turn for no energy cost and launched during any Impulse Activity Segment of any turn thereafter.
FPXX.312 - The torpedo must be launched in accordance with the tracking arcs available to the launcher.
FPXX.313 - Unlike other plasma torpedoes, dual stage plasma torpedoes may NOT be targeted on a specific target but instead must be fired on a ballistic course using ballistic targeting (F4.0)
FPXX.314 - Because of the violent interference stemming from the booster’s launch, the booster will not seek a target until it has traveled 16 hexes. Once the booster has traveled 16 hexes, it will seek a target using the rules below (FPXX.314)
FPXX.314 - Whilst in the course of traveling towards the hex designated using ballistic targeting, if an enemy vessel appears in the FA arc of the booster eligible for lock-on within 8 hexes, it will launch a Plasma-F torpedo at the target, which will immediately begin tracking the target under all normal rules for Plasma-F torpedoes. After firing, the booster will go inert. The owning player may designate an acceptable Size Class of target at the time of launch, using the same rules as (FD7.3). This cannot be changed after launch. If there are two or more targets that meet the boosters targeting requirements, the Plasma-F will be fired at the closer one. If they are equally near to the booster, determine the one to be targeted by the Plasma-F randomly (by die roll).
FPXX.316 - Instead of using the rules in FD7.3 for targeting, a specific tactical intelligence hull type may be directed.
FPXX.317 - A booster will ignore any unit with an active wild weasel as a target. It will accept the wild weasel launched by that unit as the same type of unit as any seeking weapon would. If such a unit voids the weasel, the launched Plasma-F will accept the unit as the target.

FPXX.4 - Movement

FPXX.42 - ENDURANCE: The Dual Stage Plasma Torpedo Booster has an endurance of 10 turns. If, after 10 turns it has not found a valid target and launched the Plasma-F torpedo on board, it will go inert and eject the Plasma-F torpedo harmlessly. The Plasma-F fired has the standard endurance for a Plasma-F torpedo.

FPXX.43 - SPEED: The Booster for the Dual Stage Plasma Torpedo is speed 20. The Plasma-F fired has the standard speed of a Plasma-F torpedo.

FPXX.5 - Firing at a Plasma Torpedo Booster

FPXX.51 - DAMAGE: A Plasma Torpedo Booster may be targeted by anything that could target a drone, including a Plasma Torpedo. It takes 6 damage points to destroy a Plasma Torpedo Booster, at which point it is removed from play and it’s torpedo is lost. If, on the impulse of destruction, there is a valid target within 8 hexes, the Plasma-F torpedo may be launched immediately and immediately begin tracking it.

FPXX.52 - TRACTOR: A Plasma Torpedo Booster may be held in a tractor beam, however, the booster continues to attempt to detect a target in its FA arc and if a valid target is detected it will launch its Plasma-F torpedo at the target.

FPXX.6 - Launcher Specifications

FPXX.61 - NO PPT: There is no PPT available with a Pl-DS Launcher. They are not capable of launching them, nor may a PPT be loaded on a booster.

FPXX.62 - AMMUNITION: Each Launcher only contains four boosters. Once the supply of boosters is exhausted, it may no longer fire or pay arming energy towards Plasma Torpedoes until reloaded. If the Launcher isn’t fired and arming energy is not paid for an entire turn, the Launcher may be reloaded with two boosters from storage. This must be preplotted, taking the launcher out of service for the turn. This must be a specific game turn, not a period of 32 impulses.
FPXX.621 - If a Pl-DS is already charged and held in stasis, it may continue to be held in stasis whilst the Launcher is reloaded, but it may not be fired that turn. This is an exception to FPXX.62.
FPXX.622 - Boosters may be removed from a launcher using the same method as they are loaded, removing two boosters if the launcher is not used for one whole turn.
FPXX.623 - Boosters in a Launcher at the time of it’s destruction are also destroyed. As the Pl-DS uses the boosters to launch all torpedoes, unlike other Plasma Torpedo Launchers, torpedoes may NOT be launched following the destruction of the launcher.
FPXX.624 - A ship with Pl-DS Launchers is assumed to have enough boosters in storage to reload each launcher twice. These boosters are stored throughout the ship and are assumed destroyed along with the last Excess Damage box of the vessel.

FPXX.7 - Electronic Warfare

FPXX.71 - BOOSTER: The Booster is treated as a small target, gaining the same benefits as a drone (2 natural ECM points at range 10+, 4 natural ECM points at range 20+)

FPXX.72 - PLASMA TORPEDO: The Plasma Torpedo launched has the standard 3 points of built-in ECCM

By William J Gauthier (Emperorvortia) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 01:13 pm: Edit

FPXX.8 - Extended Endurance

FPXX.81 - ADDITIONAL ENERGY: On the last turn of arming, 1 to 4 points of energy may be paid in addition to the arming cost. If additional energy is added, the torpedo must be launched that turn, or the additional energy will be lost.
FPXX.811 - This additional energy may be paid for a torpedo already being held. As in (FPXX.81) above, the energy is lost if it is not launched that turn.
FPXX.82 - EFFECT: For every additional point of energy paid on the turn of launch, up to four, add 10 turns to the endurance of the booster, to a maximum of 50 turns.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 05:39 pm: Edit

Logically, the first to develop it would be the Roms, because they're the first to have an opponent (Fed) with DB ships. And it's great with a cloak.

OTOH, the Roms have plenty of toys already, and lousy R&D capability. So maybe the Gorns.

OT3H, the Gorns wouldn't waste money on a DB weapon. So maybe the ISC.

OT4H, the ISC already have the PPD so don't need long-range weapons. And it's really a III (-XX) drone with an F on board. So maybe the Feds.

So in all, we conclude that it was developed in a Gorn lab with Fed help, prompted by Rom spies with ISC funding.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 05:55 pm: Edit

As for the rules:

1) don't call it a plasma-DS, as it's neither a plasma-D nor a plasma-S but an F. Maybe -C for Canister or something. I think there's already a B.

2) Speed upgrades as per drones?

3) Chaff, SWACs, scout sensors, etc?

4) Sabot?

5) Cargo space? I suggest 2 cu as a IIIXX drone.

6) Not sure about the power-for-endurance rule. I'd just use a different booster for extra BPV.

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 06:00 pm: Edit

William,

Thanks for putting the rules up. Please do not take these comments negatively.

It seems as if FPxx.22 and FPxx.31 are at odds with each other. If there is no energy to hold then why wouldn't you be able to come into a scenario with them already prepared.

FPxx.31 - when during the Impulse Activity Segment? During the Launch plasma torpedoes (FP1.3) and/or pseudo-plasma torpedoes (FP6.12) step or during another step?

FPxx.314 is repeated twice.

FPXX.314 - in the course of traveling towards the hex designated using ballistic targeting - how about removing the Whilst and change the using to "by". I am a bit confused by the the lock-on with in 8 hexes, is this once it has travelled 16 hexes or during? So if there is a target 2 hexes from the launching unit will the booster release it's plasma-F?

FPxx.43 - does the speed increase to 32 after drone's increase their speed to 32?

At what stage does the booster release it's plasma?

Could the booster be modified to fit in a Std Plasma Rack? They already use containers for the Type-D's and have space for 4 "drones".

This seems like it could very easily be adapted for use in a plasma rack.

By William J Gauthier (Emperorvortia) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 06:27 pm: Edit

K.Kazinski says "It seems as if FPxx.22 and FPxx.31 are at odds with each other. If there is no energy to hold then why wouldn't you be able to come into a scenario with them already prepared."

If you could come into the scenario with all your Boosters loaded with Plasma-Fs, then you could fire a Plasma-F from each every turn for four turns, which seems to me to be a bit cheesy. Technobabble Solution: The Boosters don't have containment fields strong enough to hold the torpedo for days and weeks at a time. It must be held by the Launcher before being placed in the booster, so you may only start with one shot held in stasis.

"FPXX.314 - in the course of traveling towards the hex designated using ballistic targeting - how about removing the Whilst and change the using to "by". I am a bit confused by the the lock-on with in 8 hexes, is this once it has travelled 16 hexes or during? So if there is a target 2 hexes from the launching unit will the booster release it's plasma-F?"

The Dual Stage Plasma Torpedo will not do anything accept move directly towards the hex designated by ballistic targeting until it has moved sixteen hexes. Once it has moved 16 hexes, it will launch it's Plasma-F Torpedo at any target that meets it's criteria that comes within 8 hexes of it in the FA arc.

"At what stage does the booster release it's plasma?"

"FPxx.31 - when during the Impulse Activity Segment? During the Launch plasma torpedoes (FP1.3) and/or pseudo-plasma torpedoes (FP6.12) step or during another step?"

The answer to both is Seeking Weapons Stage (6B6).

"Could the booster be modified to fit in a Std Plasma Rack? They already use containers for the Type-D's and have space for 4 "drones"."

I doubt it. I suspect that the Booster is larger than a standard Type-I drone, and it would be necessary for the launcher to be able to generate a Plasma-F torpedo to fire it. If you can have a Dual Stage Plasma F on a rack, then there is no reason why you can not have a ordinary Plasma-F in a rack, and I'm pretty sure that SVC & CO. are not interested in seeing massive Pl-F Racks.

J.Davies says "don't call it a plasma-DS, as it's neither a plasma-D nor a plasma-S but an F. Maybe -C for Canister or something. I think there's already a B."

Good advice, but I'm at a bit of a loss for a better name. B was used for the Base-Buster Torpedoes from SSJ. Maybe something else will surface with time.

J. Davies says "2) Speed upgrades as per drones?"

K. Kazinski says "does the speed increase to 32 after drone's increase their speed to 32?"

Good questions, and I think something which could only be solved with playtest. I don't see any reason why it couldn't be an upgrade paid for with BPV.

"Not sure about the power-for-endurance rule. I'd just use a different booster for extra BPV."

You're probably right, but I thought I'd try this angle, as it would give it a more Plasma feel. Extra power augments the energy the booster generates itself for thrust.

By Michael Powers (Mtpowers) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 06:30 pm: Edit

There's already precedent for Plasma-F with holding cost; launchers larger than Plasma-F cannot "freeze" the F-torp.

By William J Gauthier (Emperorvortia) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 07:07 pm: Edit

It's not actually larger than Plasma-F. It's just a Plasma-F that can engage targets at long range, but not at short range. That makes it more of a variation than a truly larger launcher. It basically combines a Plasma-F Stasis Box that you'd find in a shuttle box with a special sort of launch rack.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 08:38 pm: Edit

You might want to consider making the delay between launch of the booster and the booster launching its torpedo 16 impulses rather than 16 hexes. This is much more consistent with the way such delays are handled for other systems and I don't really see the logic in the 16 hex delay.

By William J Gauthier (Emperorvortia) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 10:21 pm: Edit

True and noted.