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	Archive through September 07, 2002	25		09/07 10:24pm

David Kass:

According to GPD 7.1 (p.110-111), transporter ranges are 4 hexes from Y120-Y140, 5 thereafter; tractor ranges are 2 hexes Y120-140, 3 thereafter.

The Middle Years as defined above (Y120-157), technologically covers two distinct phases according to the GPD tech rules. The first, TL 12, is Y120-140, with reduced-range tractors and transporters. The second, TL 12b, is the Y140+ period, where rules are as per standard SFB, but fast, hot, and fighter warp engines have not yet been developed.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 12:12 pm: Edit

In that case, the MY period shouldn't start until Y140. The entire point of the MY period is that it uses all the standard rules, unlike the EY period (but less performant ships). Note that as far as I know, despite what GPD may say, an E3 in Y120 has range 5 transporters (and range 3 tractors).

By Stan Taylor (Stantaylor) on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 12:44 pm: Edit

The tractor and transporter ranges for Y120-140 are originally from Y1. But isn't this a tiny change from the standard rules? The tactical implications are small.

From a game play perspective, why not have rules slightly different from the standard? If not, MY amounts to "standard rules except limited to ships built prior to Y150 with no upgrades, here are a couple of ships to fill in the blanks." Not very exciting.

On another note, could EY ships be upgraded to fire overloads in the MY era? Info here and there suggest that overloads have as much to do with the structure/bracing of the ship as the weapon itself. Perhaps they could be limited in the number of overloads fired per turn, with half overloads the best they can do? The answer to this question might determine whether races bothered to refit EY ships or concentrate solely on new builds.

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 12:51 pm: Edit

The shorter transport and tractor ranges are also mentioned in the Y1 rules. But Y1 has a general statement about its restrictions not being in place after Y120. The key event of Y120 is that the first speed 31 ships start to appear. At least in my opinion it is this increase in speed and the power curve that separates the EY from the MY. (I have yet to read the GPD rules to understand the TL stuff; I am going by SFB rules only.)

By David Kass (Dkass) on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 01:00 pm: Edit

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Quote:

From a game play perspective, why not have rules slightly different from the standard?

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By Stan Taylor (Stantaylor) on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 01:40 pm: Edit

Different tastes, I guess. I see the rule changes as much of the appeal of Y1 (including rules changes that force different ships such as no Ph-1 or overloads). They necessitate new tactics.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 05:19 pm: Edit

A discussion of the failed Klingon cruiser that original used the D5 designation came up in the Y2 thread. It probably fits better here. Here is a swing at failed Klingon ship that might fit the bill. I did this SSD some time ago and put it in the R9 thread. I figured it would be worth mentioning here.

(R3.__) KLINGON D-14 CRUISER (D14): The introduction of modern ships like the Klingon D-6 (in Y125) and the Federation CA (in Y126) represented a revolution in the design of warships. In a period of less than two years, the warships of the "Early Years" period were rendered obsolete. The Klingons, who had enjoyed superiority in cruisers prior to the introduction of the D-6, were now faced with the realization that these new designs represented a challenge to the advantage they had enjoyed for so many years.

In an effort to retain their advantage in cruiser strength, the Klingons briefly experimented with a refit program to bring the newest D-4 cruisers up to the standard of the D-6, beginning in Y127. This refit involved the replacement of the ship's boom and engines, and the addition of an auxiliary power reactor. Even with increased structural bracing to support the added mass, the old D-4 hulls could not withstand the shock of additional disruptors, and none were added. The refitted ships were classified as D-14s.

Very few D-4s received the D-14 upgrade (3-4 perhaps). The new components used for the upgrade were also being used in the D-6s, which always received higher priority, and parts for D-14s were frequently unavailable. In addition, the strain placed on the overloaded hull dramatically shortened their service lives. The D-14 program ceased in Y129 and most D-4s remained in their original configuration until they were decommissioned. Most of the D-14s were lost in Y135 in combat against the Hydrans and those that survived were scrapped a few years later, as the degradation of their structure made them unacceptable for reserve status.

The D-14 is not under any of the "Early Years" restrictions that limit the capabilities of the D-4. It can overload its disruptors.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 10:21 pm: Edit

You know, this would make a sweet opponent for a Fed old light cruiser...

By William F. Hostman (Aramis) on Monday, March 24, 2003 - 03:39 pm: Edit

Re: Overloads on EY ships upgraded to MY....

For EY ships in the MY period, why not simply give then a Shock rating, and treat each overload as a 1 point shock?

Maybe treat it as a 1 point/wpn upgrade...

This would allow it, but limmit it in a manner that is
1) already available in rules
2) requires little more than bookkeeping changes
3) develops new tactical imperatives
4) reflects "Fill/Color Text" issues.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 12:13 am: Edit

There's really three pieces to the transition from EY to MY ships.

Power, weapons, systems.

Upgrade all three, you have a MY ship.
Upgrade none, and you have an EY ship.

Upgrade only one or two, and you have interesting variations.

upgrade	result
Power	MY version of a fast cruiser
Weapons	a challenge to fly
Systems	a testbed ship
Power + Weapons	a MY war cruiser
Power + Systems	a candidtate for a National Guard ship
Weapons + Systems	another National Guard possibility

By Steve Cain (Stevecain) on Sunday, February 22, 2004 - 11:57 pm: Edit

Just catching up on this one...
William- I think "shock points for overloads would be good for a EY to MY combat upgrade. It will have combat limits; but EY ships should. Looking at cold war progression of naval weaponry, there are some clear steps forward in combat design and weapon system capabilities. Very good idea.

Jeff- Thank you have just summarized what I have been trying to knock together since EY hit the shelves. EY to MY won't be pretty, they won't be consistent and WILL be very prototype like in some regards (adding mixes of tech). Thank you, I tip my hat.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 02:20 am: Edit

SVC, SPP:

Is there any chance that there could be an alternate ED rule that allows the vessel to keep any IMPULSE Power placed into movement in movement when the vessel EDs?


This will help in dealing with type II & V drones which tend to hammer any ship that EDs.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 08:26 am: Edit

MJC. How will a point of impulse in movement help in this situation and why could you not do whatever you're doing using Reserve Impulse power?

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 08:37 pm: Edit

Not sure what the last two messages have to do with the topic.

As the person who initiated this topic, I believe the vast majority of the discussion to have been answered by the publication of Module R8. Therefore I consider the topic to be deletable.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 09:06 pm: Edit

A.P.:

You don't think moving speed 11 the turn after you ED will be more helpful in dealing with speed 12 drones than speed 10!?!


It also helps the other way ith Y ships upgraded to MY drones. If you ( the attacker ) slap a tracor on a speed 25 vessel and then ED in order to protect yourself from the likely enemy burst ( of heavies ), the vessel will still be moving at speed 13 which makes it very hard to hit with speed 12 drones.
If you get to keep your impulse power in movement then the impulse power of both vessels nuetralise each other and the enemy ship will still be moving merely at speed 12 which will be somewhat easier to hit with your drones.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 09:52 pm: Edit

MJC.

By definition, ED reduces the ship's speed to 0, making their max speed 10 for the next 32 impulses. Having a point of impulse applied to movement doesn't change the ship's speed after ED. Also, speed 11 vs speed 10 just isn't that big of a deal except after imp 22 and then only vs speed 12 drones.

Your tractor scenario is extremely situational based and not really a help anyway considering that your opponent will be controlling that speed 13 movement (plus if your opponent has seeking weapons, the last thing you want to do after you tractor them is ED ...unless you're planning to weasel after your strike)

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 04:27 am: Edit

Seems to me that E-STOP and E-Decel' can be two different things.

By Ken Humpherys (Pmthecat) on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 10:09 am: Edit

MJC,
This is just quibbling over semantics. They are the same thing. In fact the rules always reffer to it as Emergency Deceleration or E-Decel. E-Stop is just a term used by some people to mean the same thing.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 09:52 pm: Edit

I think it's more than that.
I think it's quibbling of a point of movement.
It just seems odd to me that in ED you can't seperate Impulse movment from the action.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 01:40 am: Edit

MJC: Except that the ship spent most of that point of impulse already moving the ship. The energy is distributed out with the other movement during every impulse, not held back until the end of the turn.

Plus you could see some very strange results like sublight units doing ED and therefore getting to both move and TAC on impulse 32. Or even possibly moving faster thanks to the oddball effects of slamming on the brakes.

Don't forget a major tactical disadvantage: it becomes that much harder to shift into reverse.

SFB has enough strange occurrences thanks to rounding effects caused by working with whole hexes that one should not deliberately add more.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 07:55 am: Edit

Maybe you're right, the impulse power could be spread over so many hexes as to only yeild a fraction of a point of power left over ( particularly in the latter part of the turn ) sucking up the power to shunt shields might not be able to handle a faction of a point too well. A rule with odd speeds with ED between impulse 1 and 16 of the turn getting to retain the single hex under impulse and all other situations not getting it, would kinda suck.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, February 21, 2007 - 10:26 pm: Edit

Hi!


I posted this in a new thread - having missed this one, d'oh... - so here we go:

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First of all, I'm guessing we would need to establish exactly what time period we are going to refer to!

It has been noted in PD that one could refer to the Middle Years as ranging from Y120 to Y160 (with an overlap from the Early Years) but if one considers Y135 (the year of the first Hydran Liberation) as the end of the Y-era, and the end of the Four Powers' War as the end of the Middle Years, it would cover Y135 to Y162 instead.


Personally, I would see the relevant era as going from Y120 (the dawn of TL12) to Y162 (the end of the Four Powers' War) - which would lead to another set of areas which would need to be covered by MY modules.


It seems the biggest issue that would need to be outlined is how the Y-era and TL12 ships were operated in combined fleets.

Did the various Powers treat the first TL12 ships in the manner that they did the first TL13 ships decades later - using CAs instead of YDNs at the core of combined fleets, and/or as part of dedicated squadrons (the predecessors to X-aquadrons?)

How many of the Y-era ships were kept in service unmodified (D4s and Lyran YCAs in Hydran space pre-Y135), decommissioned, or upgraded (Fed YCA to CA?), or turned into local defence ships (Fed YCA to LCA)? Which races actually can upgrade their Y-era CAs into TL12 CAs? Were there equivalents of partial X-refits in the Y120s and Y130s?

And were these ships involved in the wars of the time - such as the Second Fed-Kzinti War or the Hydran Liberation?


Another relevant issue is the matter of building CR10 ships with TL12.

Is it just the case that the Alpha powers simply couldn't build a TL12 DN prior to Y148 (due to similar engineering limitations that prevent X-tech DNs prior to the X2 era) and either kept the old DNs around if needed - or simply accepted that a fleet of 9 TL12 ships could wax a fleet of 11 Y-series ships (and outpace it strategically), and didn't see the need to start thinking about CR10 ships until after the first starbases were built in Y140?

Or if the YDNs were really needed, were the races able to use partial TL12 upgrades on these ships - or would it have been too much hassle?


I'm sure I'm only scratching the surface, but anyway...


It just occurred to me that an ideal candidate for inclusion in a MY module would be SSDs for the Peladine fleet that fought the Lyran Far Stars Ducal ships in Y130, as described at Jessica Orsini's website!


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Gary