Unblanced is still unbalanced, even if you can't build a fleet out of the ships.

We also need to be wary of eclipsing long range S and R torps.

I'd like to see the long range plasmas rendered useless in regular combat except being able to launch unboosted F-torps.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 11:24 pm: Edit

I'm beginning to think the only feasible method of 'long-range plasma bombardment' is plasma-armed fighters/PF's......

By William J Gauthier (Emperorvortia) on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 11:30 pm: Edit

J. Trauger says "I'd like to see the long range plasmas rendered useless in regular combat except being able to launch unboosted F-torps."

The way I wrote it, they're already extremely limited. I don't think they need to be any more limited than they are now, but perhaps some playtesting can clarify the issue. I'll have to make a point of doing so and reporting back.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 02:05 pm: Edit

There's little I can say to that except point out that many engagements start at such ranges as 30 and 40 where a weapon like this is very effective.

That makes this weapon a prime FLEET weapon.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 02:12 pm: Edit

There's little I can say to that except point out that many engagements start at such ranges as 30 and 40 where a weapon like this is very effective.

That makes this weapon a prime FLEET weapon.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 04:53 pm: Edit

Drone Bombardment ships are effective fleet support ships in regular combat as well. I'd love to see a way for the plasma races to give the C7/D5 munchkin fleet a good fight on an open map.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 07:18 pm: Edit

Well, they can, once they get plasma PF's...

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 03:11 pm: Edit

Frankly, it does seem as if it would, as proposed, quickly become completely overpowering.

The problem remains that a plasma-F torpedo at full strength requires a minimum of 40 points of phaser damage to stop it from doing any damage. Four of them would require 160 points of phaser damage to stop 80 points of damage to the ship. Four type-IV drones would score 96 points of damage, but GENERALLY take only 24 points of phaser damage to stop. (External armor would make them harder to kill, but also slower. Internal armor while not slowing them would reduce the damage they would do, thus if you gave each a half space of internal armor they would do only 72 points of damage, and require 32 points of phaser damage to destroy.)

Further, four type-IV drones can be stopped by (at least temporarily) four tractor beams, plasmas cannot be stopped by that means.

Four type-IV drones can be stopped by a well placed T-bomb, plasmas cannot be stopped by that means.

Four type-IV drones can at least probably be attrited by an ADD system, plasmas do not understand what ADDs are.

Even if you assume that at best the four plasma-Fs will (after release) have to move 12 hexes before impact, you still have a warhead yield of 40 points (downing a shield and some internals on most cruiser hulls and seriously damaging most destroyer and frigate hulls), requiring a minimum of 80 points of phaser damage to stop (compared to that 24 to stop the four type-IV drones plus all the other possible defenses against drones).

As an additional note, someone commented about type-III drones being limited to being launched at targets that are no more than 35 hexes away under Tame Boar. This is an error. Tame Boar can be used against targets not otherwise forbidden [currently things like cloaked targets, hidden targets (including Jindarian ships in an asteroid field that have not been revealed), phased targets, and small/medium ground bases outside four hexes range]. It IS PERFECTLY LEGAL (emphasis, not shouting) to launch a type-III drone on Tame Boar Targeting at a valid target that is 36 or more hexes away from the launching unit. Rule (FD5.25) and its subsections are specific to type-III drones and their advanced ATG systems and form exceptions to (F3.42) which covers plasma torpedoes, normal ATG, and type-VI drones. Type-III drones operate within (F3.42) except as modified by (FD5.25), and tame boar is part of (FD5.25). Type-IIIs are not restricted by the 35 hex range limit in (F3.42) if launched under Tame Boar or Wild Boar targeting.

To be clear, you cannot launch a type-I, type-II, type-IV, or type-V drone (or currently, any plasma torpedo) at a target that is 36 hexes away, even if it has ATG. This also applies to type-VI drones. You CAN launch a type-III drone at such a target under tame boar targeting, but note that it will not seek the target until it gets within eight hexes of it.

As an additional note about type-IIIXX drones, while they are two space drones, they still only require four points to destroy, not six.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 07:14 pm: Edit

Well, from a strictly game-balance perspective, what is a plasma player supposed to do on an open map against a direct fire opponent unwilling to close the range, but with plenty of drones for you to swim through should you attempt to do so?

For example, Feds vs. Gorns. Feds never close to a better range than 30, fire proxes all day (in narrow salvos, natch), hammering away at your shields. They use drones to keep a massive wall between you and their ships. How do you respond?

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 07:43 pm: Edit

Run away. It's the same thing as charging uphill vs dug-in infantry.....you might win, but its going to HURT.

Plasma players should avoid open-space floating maps like the plague....they want small fixed maps...which is why Big Plasma always tends to do well in tourney play.....

By William J Gauthier (Emperorvortia) on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 07:46 pm: Edit

S. Petrick says "Frankly, it does seem as if it would, as proposed, quickly become completely overpowering."

Well, Steve, you've got infinitely more experience than I, but since your main complaint seems to be my suggestion of the volume fired, then we could always slow down the rate of fire or lower the number of launchers per ship, as stated above.

If eight on a CA hull is too many, it could easily be four to six instead.

By Jon Berry (Laz_Longsmith) on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 12:00 pm: Edit

What about developing something like the Trobrin from Omega, and instead of firing off a seeker, it fires off a Bolt instead?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 03:13 pm: Edit

How would that fit into a plasma version of drone bombardment?

4 on a CA hull would match my suggestions.

Clearly a plasma ship can't have any kind of bombardment ability and have normal plasmas too, so replacing normal plasmas with bombardment plasmas gives us about the results we're looking for.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 04:53 pm: Edit

Dale McKee:

Exactly what does that have to do with the post? Are you taking the point that the only thing one is allowed to discuss is the positive points? There are two sides to every equation, and if you ignore the simple fact that plasma is very hard to kill relative to the damage it can inflict, then your discussion if biased.

NOTHING in my post said "this idea is dead" or "you cannot do this". Read it. I raised points of discussion, and I pointed out at least one existing "rules error" (Tame Boar range limit) that someone posted, and felt that one rule needed clarification (type-IIIXX are indeed double space drones that only do 12 points of damage, but further they still only take four points of damage to kill).

I had read the entire topic to that point, and since I noticed not one of you were considering the effect of being able to unleash hard to kill plasmas at close range in "bombardment drone" numbers that they would be very likely to overwhelm any possible defense. I considered those valid points of discussion rather than the general "rah rah lets do this and darn the consequences" that most of the posters in this topic have taken.

As to how I fight with plasma at long range, I am NOT going to repeat what I have said in answer to that question several times before because it is IRRELEVANT to what I posted.

William J Gauthier:

Last time I looked, I still had the privilege of looking at proposals and tossing out thoughts just as any other poster on this board. All, I say again ALL, I was doing was pointing out the issues that most of the other posters in this topic had seemed willing to address, or even to consider.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 05:43 pm: Edit

SPP: Did I SAY you were only allowed to discuss positive aspects only? As if I had the authority to say such a thing.

My only concern is that the idea not be shot down with extreme prejudice simply because others may read your words and take them as a rejection. I did not see you write REJECTED in big bold letters, so I did not assume you had rejected the matter.

By William J Gauthier (Emperorvortia) on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 06:00 pm: Edit

S. Petrick says "Last time I looked, I still had the privilege of looking at proposals and tossing out thoughts just as any other poster on this board. All, I say again ALL, I was doing was pointing out the issues that most of the other posters in this topic had seemed willing to address, or even to consider. "

Oh no Steve, please do not interpret anything I was saying as dismissive or confrontational. I am completely assuaging to your statement, and was saying that if you, who have infinitely more experience than I, feel like eight is to many, then it could easily be downgraded to six or four.

My feeling on the matter was that because there would be such a significant delay in the firing of the weapons again because of the energy necessary to charge the torpedoes, then the low, every three turns firing rate would make up for the sudden big burst of Plasma, especially when an appropriate response would be to phaser down the boosters using Phaser-1s or intercept them with drones. If you let the booster get inside range 15, you really deserve whatever you get.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 06:29 pm: Edit

How about making this a drogue only device. That is they can only launch from a drogue.

Heavy bombardment would be done with light carriers with lots of drogues.

The unit would also have to cost on the order of 4 BPV and might have a speed of 15 (max shuttle speed). That keeps it from being a plasma on a drone. This ends up being a UCAV like unit. Perhaps two per drogue?

Damage would be small to and you have to reach R8 but maybe should do it at R10 or less to fit plasma ranges.

Just some thoughts. I didn't read everything so maybe these ideas have been thought of.


Maybe if the vehicle isn't destroyed it returns to the launch point. If not recovered it self destructs.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 07:17 pm: Edit

William, Loren and anyone else interested,

Make it a variant of the heavy weapons plasma F drogue; instead of three PL-Fs it carries two boosted Fs. Presuming the booster is based on plasma technology then it could follow the same arming requirements of a PL-F (three turns +1+1+3). Placing the canister F torp onto the drogue could be the same as loading it on a fighter rail (see (J4.86)); The drogue cradle would include a stasis chamber to load canister PL-F torps (see (J4.88)).

The number in flight can be limited. Reloading takes six plus turns. The drogue comes with two booster as part of the purchase; extra booster, up four for each drogue, can be purchased separately. A scout can use this type drogue and not blind it's sensor channels. Also no changes to an SSD are needed. The number of drogues can be limited by scenario rules, BPV, or CO points.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 09:25 pm: Edit

It's useful to remind that first and foremost we're talking about a plasma version of a DB weapon.

What we're doing right now is hashing out its use in combat, but you can't forget what its primary use is.

A slow-arming or limited (on a drogue) deployment weapon would be fine for direct combat but would tend to negate the bombardment mission.

For all the reasons SPP laid out, a PB ship doesn't need the ROF of 6 drone racks, which with III-XX drones boils down to 6 drones every 2 turns or 3 drones a turn once you expend the supplies in the rack.

What ROF would work and how it balances for both bombardment and normal combat is the big issue.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 12:16 am: Edit

Hmmm.

Bombardment plasma.

Here's my wild swing.

Bombardment Plasma Launcher (Type-B).
Twice (1.5?) as big as a Type-R launcher.

6-turn arming cycle, 4-6-8-10-12-14, can't be held, no rolling delay.

Warhead strength chart:
0-10 : 5
11-20 : 10
21-40 : 20
41-60 : 30
61-80 : 40
81-100: 50

At range 101 it blows up in the hex, doing no damage...(as opposed to fading out).

BPV cost....umm...lots?

And yeah, they'd be really rare. Or hard/expensive to build. As far as S8 goes, it's considered a DB ship.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 02:17 pm: Edit

Mike,

DB ships typically work at ranges measured in thousands of hexes.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 03:45 pm: Edit

So? Adjust the chart accordingly, then.

Or say the plasma is launched in an inactive state, and 'wakes up' once it gets to its target area....

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 10:53 pm: Edit

John T,

How can you build a plasma that can go speed 32 for 100 turns, which is what a post Y180 type-IIIxx drone does? Non-DB ships can carry only a small number of type-III drones and type-IIIxx which are limited availability (10%). A standard drone with extended range is general availability and has an endurance of six turns (6x32= 192 hexes).

Long Lance plasma has been proposed before; see CL# 16. "This was rejected because plasma torpedoes lose power with range and burn out completely at 32 hexes." The proposed item was a type D that could go 100s of hexes for bombardment missions.

If the booster is limited to maximum endurance of six turns, that would seem to be more in line with a plasma bombardment mission.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 11:18 am: Edit

Loren Knight:

Before proposing something, a perusal of the relevant rule that you are deciding to use would be helpful to avoid going down a dead-end path.

Drogues CANNOT replace fighters (G34.11), so making it a drogue and then replacing the fighters on any carrier is a dead issue.

Second, the deployment of Drogues is limited to ONE PER BAY, not "one per shuttle box", i.e., a ship with a dozen shuttles and one bay might replace all 12 shuttles with drogues, but could have only one drogue deployed at any given time (G34.211).

Third is the speed restriction of a ship with a trailed drogue (limited to speed 12), (G34.251), which makes it difficult to mass the plasmas for the bombardment effect short of restricting their various "bus vehicles" to that speed or less.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 12:38 pm: Edit

Bombardment Drones, type, range, damage to destroy (all drones presented here have a warhead yeild of 12 points, obviously internal armor added to the unarmored versions would halve the yeild and other types of warheads are possible, e.g., spearfish or swordfish or other):

Type-III Drone, Speed Two (Full Space of External Armor on Speed Eight Drone Body): Max range 50 hexes, damage to destroy is eight points.

Type-III Drone, Speed Four (Half Space of External Armor on Speed Eight Drone Body): Max Range of 100 hexes, damage to destroy is six points.

Type-III Drone, Speed Eight (No External Armor): Max Range 200 hexes, damage to destroy is four points.

Type-III Drone, Speed Four (Full Space of External Armor on Speed Twelve Drone Body): Max Range 100 hexes, damage to destroy is eight points.

Type-III Drone, Speed Eight (Half Space of External Armor on Speed Twelve Drone Body): Max Range 200 hexes, damage to destroy is six points.

Type-III Drone, Speed Twelve (No External Armor): Max Range 300 hexes, damage to destroy is four points.

Type-III Drone, Speed Eight (Full Space of External Armor on Speed Twenty Drone Body): Max Range 200 hexes, damage to destroy is eight points.

Type-III Drone, Speed Twelve (Half Space of External Armor on Speed Twenty Drone Body): Max Range 300 hexes, damage to destroy is six points.

Type-III Drone, Speed Twenty (No External Armor): Max Range 500 hexes, damage to destroy is four points.

Type-III Drone, Speed Twelve (Full Space of External Armor on Speed Thirty-Two Drone Body): Max Range 300 hexes, damage to destroy is eight points.

Type-III Drone, Speed Twenty (Half Space of External Armor on Speed Thirty-Two Drone Body): Max Range 500 hexes, damage to destroy is six points.

Type-III Drone, Speed Thirty-Two (No External Armor): Max Range 800 hexes, damage to destroy is four points.

Type-IIIXX Drone, Speed Two (Full Space of External Armor on Speed Eight Drone Body): Max Range 200 hexes, damage to destroy is eight points.

Type-IIIXX Drone, Speed Four (Half Space of External Armor on Speed Eight Drone Body): Max Range 400 hexes, damage to destroy is six points.

Type-IIIXX Drone, Speed Eight (No External Armor): Max Range 800 hexes, damage to destroy is four points.

Type-IIIXX Drone, Speed Four (Full Space of External Armor on Speed Twelve Drone Body): Max Range 400 hexes, damage to destroy is eight points.

Type-IIIXX Drone, Speed Eight (Half Space of External Armor on Speed Twelve Drone Body): Max Range 800 hexes, damage to destroy is six points.

Type-IIIXX Drone, Speed Twelve (No External Armor): Max Range 1,200 hexes, damage to destroy is four points.

Type-IIIXX Drone, Speed Eight (Full Space of External Armor on Speed Twenty Drone Body): Max Range 800 hexes, damage to destroy is eight points.

Type-IIIXX Drone, Speed Twelve (Half Space of External Armor on Speed Twenty Drone Body): Max Range 1,200 hexes, damage to destroy is six points.

Type-IIIXX Drone, Speed Twenty (No External Armor): Max Range 2,000 hexes, damage to destroy is four points.

Type-IIIXX Drone, Speed Twelve (Full Space of External Armor on Speed Thirty-Two Drone Body): Max Range 1,200 hexes, damage to destroy is eight points.

Type-IIIXX Drone, Speed Twenty (Half Space of External Armor on Speed Thirty-Two Drone Body): Max Range 2,000 hexes, damage to destroy is six points.

Type-IIIXX Drone, Speed Thirty-two (No External Armor): Max Range 3,200 hexes, damage to destroy is four points.