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I need to find a phrase to identify such material that is still in a state of proposal. I don't want anyone to think that I think I'm the Tholian authority. I don't know if I should just stay out of these conversations and just do my work in isolation or what. There have been many ideas that have found their genisis on these threads though. The Tholian article coming in CL38 is an example of that.

By Jonathan Jordan (Arcturusv) on Monday, August 04, 2008 - 01:21 pm: Edit

Could just put a big "PENDING APPROVAL" warning stamp before any such information. No need to throw away a potentially good resource because of a few misunderstandings about what is pending approval and what is published fact.

But scouring the forums I've found your posting to be quite helpful myself. So I do have an ulterior motive there.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, August 04, 2008 - 03:33 pm: Edit

Given that SFB ships are moified bussard ramjets (I assume this includes the tholians) one can track a ship or fleet by the "wake" they would leave behind them. That wake would contain reduced hydrogen which would be collected and used by their fusion-driven APRs and impulse drives, as well as waste helium vented by those same drives.

This trail will blur over time, though I'm not exactly sure what that time frame would be. I can see Tholians passing through natural phenomina such as gas clouds in an attempt to hide or blur their wake faster as well as running on stored hydrogen for a time. (sort of like running through a river to throw the hounds off your scent)

The wake left by a dyson sphere has got to be massive. The Tholians that moved such a sphere to our galaxy must have been very good at the game of hiding/obscuring their wake simply because neither the 312th nor the Seltorans came directly to tholain space and knocked on the door.

As an aside, wake-tracking might not work for Andro ships using their RTN. If Andro ships in the RTN do not cross physical space between nodes, there would be no wake line linking nodes together.

Andro ships desiring to get on the RTN at a given node would likely turn off their bussard collectors (once again I am assuming they use this technolopgy), switch to stored reserves within X range of their node. If they also held, rather than vented, the helium from their fusion reactors, their trail would simply...end...at the switch-over point with no clue where the andro(s) went.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, August 04, 2008 - 04:44 pm: Edit

I'm pretty sure that SFB ships, as well as Trek ship, do not rely strictly on the ram scoop to operate. It is, rather, an auxilliary fuel production system. The ram scoops simply extends operational range or lessens the fuel storage load.

So, a ship would not always leave a hydrogen tunnel behind it. While only a warp ship would make such a wake they wouldn't alway do so.

If SFB ships relied completly on free hydrogen then warp travel between galaxies would not be possible. However, I'm sure the lack of free hydrogen is a serious logistical issue for intergalactic travel. Not to mention the problems it would make for cloaked ships.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, August 04, 2008 - 04:56 pm: Edit

I would also think that spotting a hole in free hydrogen would be something you'd have to be pretty close to.

Tracking a Sphere should be pretty hard if you don't have at least a general idea of where to look. The Klingon colonies in the Holdfast never saw a sphere come park in their hex and it was practically glowing with damage and radiation. Also, anything at warp speed is not observable except through sensors. It's not like you can see a sphere cruising by if it's a warp speed.
"Hey, did you see that?!"
"Um, no."
"Exactly!"

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, August 04, 2008 - 05:09 pm: Edit

I seriously doubt that most starships carry enough stored fuel to make it between two galaxies either, so how do they get across?

By George Duffy (Sentinal) on Monday, August 04, 2008 - 05:48 pm: Edit

John

Just taking a shot at it.

For the Andromedans, it is their RTN system and Displacement devices that helped them travel the distances (probaly 'highways' between the galaxies with RTN bases along the ways used as rest stops)

(The rest is speculative and can easily be dismissed based on information not yet presented by Loren's "pending approved" Tholian background, or the PTB)

For the Tholians, their "Dyson Sphere" has the power of a sun to draw upon. They would have had to use some kind of single-point regularity technology or something to that effect to move the size of a small solar system.

For the Seltorians, their Nest ships could have had a unique kind of drive that was developed from Tholian technology similar to that of the "Dyson Spheres"

In the case of the 312 Battle Squadron (again, totally speculative here), perhaps they had a Tug/Transport ship (ark?) similiar to that of a Seltorian Nest ship, which didn't survive re-entry into the MWG. Which means that if they hadn't of found the Dyson sphere then they would have been stranded and on their own in this galaxy.

B^)

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, August 04, 2008 - 06:02 pm: Edit

Tholian Dyson Spheres are not really technically dyson spheres (AFAIK). They are only 25Kkm in diameter. About the size of a small gas giant.

This is from the technical data that SVC sent me that was developed long before I started on this project.

So, I think any hydrogen tunnel left by a Tholian Sphere would be, at most, 100,000 km in diameter. Finding that from even a parsec away would be pretty incredible. Finding an inert debris trail would also be pretty difficult (I presume those trying to escape in secret would render debis inert whenever possible) from any further. The subspace signature is the only thing I can think of that could be tracked from any real stratigic distance and I can't see that being anything significantly further than any good sized warship. A sub-space signature is a sub-space signature. It isn't harder to track a Free Trader than it is a B-10 Battleship. Maybe a shuttle is small enough to make a difference and a B-10 is probably a shuttle to a Tholian Sphere so maybey two F&E hexes?

Once a sphere is outside the galaxy and then makes several course changes (albeit very slow and long ones) you wouldn't be able to track them unless you already knew where to look.

I think it would be a mistake to have spheres be too easilly traced. Otherwise the Seltorians would have been on top of the Holdfast MANY year earlier with a much bigger fleet and the rest of the hunt would be over before they even got to the Milky Way Galaxy.

By Joseph Riggs (Junior) on Monday, August 04, 2008 - 06:37 pm: Edit

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Quote:

Andro ships desiring to get on the RTN at a given node would likely turn off their bussard collectors (once again I am assuming they use this technolopgy), switch to stored reserves within X range of their node. If they also held, rather than vented, the helium from their fusion reactors, their trail would simply...end...at the switch-over point with no clue where the andro(s) went.

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Quote:

When it comes to the Milky Way group, a significant 'wild card' for the Tholians and Seltorians would be the ongoing Andromedan invasions.

For example, if a fleeing Tholian force passed through a given globular cluster or satellite galaxy, the Andromedans might have moved in between the time the Tholians move on and a Tribunal force shows up.

Nest Ship, meet Dominator.

Indeed, the Tholians themselves could have been annihilated by Andromedan garrisons in such satellite galaxies - and the fleeting Seltorians may have either 'lost the scent' and been forced to explore other clusters or satellite galaxies, or ended up crunched in turn by the Andros.

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Quote:

Or, another possibility - that the Tholians were killed by Andromedans, but that the Andro presence was cleared out by some other action (be it a Souldra infestation, or Iridani Crusade, or Juggernaut or Death Probe attack, or some other, unknown alien force) and the Selts were left with a new pocket galaxy to set up shop in.

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By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, August 04, 2008 - 07:18 pm: Edit

Loren,

The Selts would have an approximate exit point figured by collating data from Seltoaran base sensors in the area. (RE SPP's post)

From that you can get an approximate point of departure, then search the area for an outward bound track of swept-clear space. With an approximate departure point pegged, ships can search the area in detail and find the wake. If finding the wake at a parec's distabce is hard (ut possible), at what distance does it become easy?

A 100,000km diameter wake is likely to remain visible for years, if not hundreds of years. If the Selts have patience, they can pick up the trail unless the Tholians found a way to mask it.

By Jonathan Jordan (Arcturusv) on Monday, August 04, 2008 - 07:23 pm: Edit

Seems likely to me that at the very least, the Tholians believed that the Seltorians would track them down. Based off the F&E map and their SBs being pointed toward the Rim, rather than any galactic power. First line defense against the obvious Seltorian point of entry rather than from the Klingon side entry they faced in actuality? Or was the paranoia and fear such that even though they thought "No way they could track us through that" they still hedged their bets against that above the more immediate and provable threats from the Galactic Powers?

By Joseph Riggs (Junior) on Monday, August 04, 2008 - 08:19 pm: Edit

iirc, the Captains Log article on the Tholian arrival in the Milky Way pretty much stated that the Holdfast Tholians ended up where they did because their sphere couldn't travel any further. It was in pretty bad shape when they arrived, and they were simply unable to travel any further coreward.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, August 04, 2008 - 08:39 pm: Edit

In the history I've worked up, with all the issues in SPP post in mind (I've thought of this stuff long ago), I worked out a way that clearly allows the Holdfast sphere to have generally escaped the M81 local group unobserved. As I've proposed they did NOT head straight for the MWG. Indeed, they were supposed to go somewhere else.
That's all I should say on it.


Joseph: That is correct. The journey through the energy barrier was devestating. To hide from a potential enemy it is best to bury yourself as deep in the hay stack as possible. As it happens, their location (and considering their attitude) was really the best possible one. Sure they get harrassed by the Klingons a lot (and this provides as much training for them as it does for Klingons), one can only imagine the hassel had they settled in the middle of the Federation. Heh, they might have ended up as Klingon allies! The barrier killed a whole lot of Tholians but might have saved their race in the long run.

Jonathan: All races put Starbases to the rear and Battlestations on the front. That is the same patern for the Tholians. The Holdfast design is largely built to defend against known and current threats. However, I have little doubt that they keep a sharp eye on the barrier.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 02:23 pm: Edit

Stewart W Frazier said on Sunday, August 03, 2008: "Not quite, while the base sensors can detect the fleeing Tholians, it would be the ships's sensors to track between galaxies (no scouts) plus the 312th would have leaving fresher tracks than the sphere (assuming the sphere tracks are the same or lighter than the fleet)."

This is, of course, wrong (sorry Stewart). The reason it is wrong is that it assumes just Seltorian warships (DNs, BCHs, CAs, CLs, DDs, and FFs) in the pursuing forces, and is correct that there are no "scout" variants of any of these in the Tholian Home Galaxy.

Every Seltorian pursuit force is, however, by definition built around the largest mobile scout platform ever to see service in any known galaxy to this point. That is one or more Hive Ships and/or Nest Ships, both of which have special sensors.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar1) on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 09:38 pm: Edit

Hmmm, well SPP, that would be a yes and no. If the Nest/Hive were immediately available to follow the initial pursuer, I'd be very wrong. As is, with the time to construct those ships, the trail is 'weaker', unless you're implying that the Thlians were in 'bail' mode and just did a straight line out.

Of course, the Seltorians may not have 'tracked' the Tholians but sent forces to the most probable locations (clusters, galaxies) in the general direction of the fleeing units...

Hmm, would the Seltorians have better luck tracking the Andromedan RTN network due to their experience tracking the Tholians?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 10:22 pm: Edit

I'd have to guess that tracking Tholians is nothing like tracking Andros; very apples to oranges, and more like apples to hamburgers.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Friday, May 08, 2009 - 07:51 pm: Edit

X1R is now out and leaves open the unlikely possibility the CAX and DDX escaped to the Seltorians just outside the Galaxy. The X-ship(s) arrive and all the new technology data is delivered to the Hive/Nest ship. So what would they build?

It would be interesting if the Hive/Nest ships could be converted to X-technology (like Jindarian Rock ships can).

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Saturday, July 24, 2010 - 04:00 pm: Edit

Module R-12 had the Seltorian Battlewagon. After the Burning Torch of Vengeance was destroyed many Seltorian commanders choose to seek a final suicidal assault (Gotterdammerung) into the Holdfast. It appears not all did. Some many for reason not fully known choose to escape. I mention last year perhaps one or more the unaccounted X-ships escaped. One hypothesis is the Gotterdammerung assault into the Holdfast was also a diversion (cover) for escape of the X-ship or ships. The CAX Swift Wind of Fire escaped outside the galaxy but close to the Alpha sector.

At the base were a damaged hive ship and a nest ship. The Seltorians installed the engines from the hive ship on the nest ship. X-technology versions of the web breaker and particle cannons were installed in the side bays and PF modules were installed in the two rear-most bays. The ship was named the Damnation of Ragnarok and was a fast battlewagon. The proposal that the X-technology weapons modules could be installed in the construction bays is an exception to (XR4.1). Since these bays can build X-ships perhaps they could also hold X-technology weapons modules. The Damnation of Ragnarok was accompanied by a CAX and two DDXs. Rumors of attacks by a powerful Seltorian squadron started in Y189.