This is an idea that just popped into my head and I wanted to record it for possible use for a new race to use.

Warp shields: The idea is that this new race would not use standard shields but use their warp field in a new way to act as a shield. The device would be spread through out the control spaces so if the ship was uncontroled it would have no Warp Shield. It is powered by warp directly. Any warp not used for movement could be used for the Warp Shield. There is a single shield that deflects 5 points of damage per unit of warp in early years and six in later years. This one shield has a 360' coverage. It is regenerated each turn, it's level depending on the warp energy spent.

Now at first this seems way powerful but think about it. Though it covers all directions it takes damage from all directions. Yes, you can raise quite a big shield but you'll be going slow or not at all to do it. It can be raised each turn but it takes quite some power to use. On your ship if you know how your damage is going to be comming in then you could tailor it well. But watch out, if you loose your shield then you loose it all, 360'.

It would be interesting to see how it plays.

To sum up:

Warp Shield is operated from control spaces.

Is powered only by warp.

Deflects 5 points of damage per warp point. Six in later years.

Is reraised each turn.

(Note: enveloping torps would be scarry things to a ship protected by this form of shield)

Is incompatable with standard shields. I would imagine these ships might have an equivelent to minimum shields (as such would be not reinforcable) for use wile cruising and non-combat situations. Cannot use both at the same time.

Stops Trasporters a such the same way a standard shield does.

Can raise and lower the same way a standard shield does but does so with the whole shield. For boarding actions the tactic then would be (in a combat situation) to lower the Warp shield and raise the minimum shild with one facing down. Then drop the minimum shields when the warp shield comes up eight impulses later.

Shield strength is announced at the beginning of the turn after EA.


Just a thought to make some new race have a very different dynamic.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 08:09 pm: Edit

Of course if the Orions ever got hold of this there would be hell to pay!

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 11:57 am: Edit

MAYBE 1 or 2 points per warp point.

Whne needs general, even specific reinfrocement when we have a race that gets it for a 5-to-1 ratio?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 12:12 pm: Edit

Run the numbers. A cruiser has #1-30 #2-26 and #6-26. Thats 88 shields for two points of any energy (and that's only half). It takes 17.6 warp to raise that on a Warp Shield. One shield for all directions. That is both strong and weak depending on the tactics used against it.

General and specific re-enforcement should not be compaired with Warp Shields as WSs are the primary defencive shield.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 12:32 pm: Edit

My fear is this will be too size class dependent. For SC3 cruisers, it may work out well, but SC4 ships will be popcorn (even more so than now) and DNs will be bricks (even more so than now).

Take a 1/2 MC ships with 16 warp and 4 other power. 1.5 for active fire control & life support. Ship wants to move speed 14 (slow, but not TOO slow) - so 7 warp. That leaves 9 warp & 2.5 other for weapons & shields. Assume 2 disruptorish weapons & 1 point for phaser recharging (pretty minimal requirements) for 5 more power. Down to 6.5 warp power.
With no EW, minimal weapons energy, and a slow speed, you have a total of 32 shield energy. A typical DD would have 20ish #1 shield, so only 12 to cover everything else.

For the DN, 1.5 MC, 45 warp, 12 other energy. With speed 14 (21) & housekeeping (2.5) - that's 24 warp & 9.5 other. Say 8 disruptors, 4 points in phasers - 20 points. That's 13.5 power for shields. This ship now has a 67 point 360 degree shield. Compare to 45ish #1 on a DN. In a duel type scenario, the only way to get internals will be to close to close range & alpha. At long ranges, it'll just recharge all day.

This just seems really hard to balance.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 12:36 pm: Edit

Hey, imagine this...

Take a defensive system that is pretty much immune to long range sniping (because it recharges every turn). Pair it with short range, single turn, massive damage weapons.

What do you have, Hydrans from Hell!

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 12:59 pm: Edit

Hmm, this would be great on 1-on-1 battles, but squadron and bigger, a ship would get toasted every turn by a normal fleet.

Imagine a 3D6+F5L+2F5B firing at a different ship each turn, with drones included.

This would also effectively make the Gorn Anchor meaningless wouldn't it? Oh I got tractored by the Romulan FH at the end of Turn 2 of his reloads. Go speed 0, and I have 150 points of shields. That regenerate.

If you could somehow take warp damage (feedback) each time you take 20+ damage, take 2 warp damage, it might balance out the auto-regenerating.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 02:43 pm: Edit

Well, it is radicly different and would require new tactics. I would assume that the New Race that this might be used for would have unique weapons and other things that make them more balanced. I thouhgt of the small ship thing and considered making the shield efficiancy better due to the compact nature of the smaller ships but then that just didn't make real sense. Perhaps this new race would employ either large ships (CA and DN size) or small nimble ships with a hot warp type engine.

Sixteen point warp engines might be the standard design for this race.

In any case, you would have some thing as different as the Andromidans.

Maybe some sort of reserve warp device??

Well, I mostly wanted to preserve the idea for future consideration.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 03:36 pm: Edit

I think it's a cool idea, but one that would require lots of tweaking to get it balanced just right. Too much power, and you've got a Borg; not enough, and you have toast in space. I do like this idea for a new race, though. I may play with this, and test it out. Gotta find a pick up game, though.

By Dave Steele (Blackknight) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 04:24 pm: Edit

(Warp Shields)
Actually, a conversion factor based on ship size class would probably work. So a small ship might be more efficient in the conversion of energy to warp-shield than a large one for instance. There should probably be an upward limit of how much warp could be applied by a given size class, or you run into the invincible rock problem.

Another thought is that these ships should probably use the Leaky Shields rule as the norm, otherwise you have the afore-mentioned Rock problem. Or... how about up to “X” energy is standard level (and no leak) but “Z” and above is Reinforced level, and the Leaky Shields rule (D3.6) automatically applies. Maybe make the Leak equal to the conversion ratio of the ship. So, if a cruiser converts at 4:1, then they also leak every fourth point. If a frigate converts at 6:1, then they only leak every sixth point, which is good since most frigates can't take a lot of internal damage in the first place. I think with a little fiddling, you could make this race different, yet better balanced than, say, the Andro’s… ; )

This race vs. plasma-chucker would be an interesting match up. A couple of enveloping plasmas would ruin their day. On the other hand, the low-crunch races like the Klingons might groan when they see one.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 04:32 pm: Edit

If it's one big shield, how would you handle EPT's? Loren, any idea? I'd hate to think what the current EPT rules would mean for a ship like this.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 05:09 pm: Edit

I don't know what if anything EPT interaction should be. I'll have to think about it later.

Dave Steele: I like the leaky shields tied with conversion rate. What comes to mind is....I just went blank.

Guys, I got some major stuff on me today and I can't think well. I'll be out of town for four or five days. We'll talk later.

Thanks.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 08:27 pm: Edit

As this thing stands, it's going to penalise snipers enormously and benefit the crunch merchants. The shield is 360 and regenerates so it doesn't matter in the least where you hit it; so HBs and Klinks suffer.

Having no shield facing to protect would take out much of the reason for maneuver.

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 09:18 pm: Edit

Warp Shields:
First of all, I like the premise (though an auto-regen shield may be on the auto-reject list, but I don't know)
The Scon race (for Omega) that I've developed has a shield system that I'm not very wild with but I think is okay. However, if this idea works, I wouldn't mind having this system replace the one I came up with.
If we base it on MC, you could use the MC as a factor in determining strength. Example: A MC 1/3 unit would have to use 10 points of warp power to generate a 30 point shield. (10 / .333 = 30) While a dreadnought would have to use 45 points of warp power to generate a 30 pt shield.
Now, in addition to that, the warp shield power is NOT allocated. It is in fact a byproduct of it's current speed. In other words, if a CA is producing 25 pts of power for movement (actual speed, not total plotted movement cost), then he has 25 pts of shields protecting him on that turn.
This has several affects.
1) A slow ship cannot create a brick
2) A fast ship will be well protected but has less power for other essentials
3) The shield is not so overwhelming against even the snipiest races
4) The ship with the warp shield would have to play very carefully to take advantage of its regeneratability while at the same time avoid its one big weakness that once the shields are down, they are all down.
5) Promotes fast speeds (and in Omega, that really isn't terribly fast)
6) This method doesn't require additional math. Your speed is the same as the Shield's strength.

Any warp power applied to any kind of movement will strengthen the shield. Changes in speed (mid-turn speed) would result in changes in shield strength.

The race's AWR's could provide reinforcement if its applied to batteries as reserve warp. You could say they have interesting batteries that do this. I don't know.

The Scon (which are slated for Omega 6 or 7) which are very unique in themselves could very well have developed this (in lieu of my own idea).
I only offer this (provided its not shot down in all of its versions) because Loren doesn't have a race in mind, yet.

This is just off the top of my head based entirely on Loren's work.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 09:25 pm: Edit

I'm confused by your math. If based on size class and a size class 3 ship generates 30 point shields with 10 warp, shouldn't a size class 2 dreadnough generate 30 point shields with 15 warp (not the 45 warp listed).

I see this as being a very difficult technology to balance. The 360 aspect seems to reduce the need for maneuver. I suspect it is going to require the ship to have very narrow firing arcs (say 2 LF heavy weapons and 2 RF ones).

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 10:34 pm: Edit

MC (movement cost), not SC (size class)
If I inadvertantly inserted SC anywhere, replace that with MC.

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 11:15 pm: Edit

additional note:

Quote: The 360 aspect seems to reduce the need for maneuver. I suspect it is going to require the ship to have very narrow firing arcs (say 2 LF heavy weapons and 2 RF ones).

On the contrary, the premise is that it will work if arming weapons is NOT cheap.
If a ship starts out at WS3, then that becomes less of an issue, but rearming will (a) slow the ship or (b) the ship will have fewer weapons to fire or (c) combination of the both.
The Fed DD is a good example of the need for balance. Try re-arming all 4 phots and you wind up with an extremely slow ship.

I've given some thought on this and realize that probably many of you don't like the idea of FFs and DNs having the same level of shields. It almost seems unnatural.
We could say that whatever race utilizes this technology simply has that unique characteristic. Incidently, the Scon do not have units larger than MC1 (or at least that's how I submitted them anyway).

Another possibility to add to all of this (for those of you who have issues of the all around shield) is that each ship will have 6 additional boxes on the SSD (one for each shield facing).
Lets call them "warp shield stabilizers" (WSS).
These are destroyed either by H&R raids or a DAC hit on the drone (or other unused item).
If the #5 WSS is destroyed, then that shield facing loses its integrity (not affecting the others) and is effectively down until the WSS is repaired. Much like the Andro PA panels, the drone hit is reasonably high enough that even one internal hit could knock down the shield facing.

I'm still thinking on this.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 11:36 pm: Edit

My suggestion was trying to solve a different probblem. Part of what makes SFB work is the need to maneuver. Without the need for maneuvering, a game basically reduces itself to whomever rolls better. One of the keys to creating maneuver are the fact that ships have 6 60 degree shields (especially when combined with weapon arcs). The idea of narrow (split) weapon arcs was to give the ship a reason to want to maneuver since a single 360 degree shield doesn't require doing so.

I suppose another way would be a weapon with very variable (and narrow) range brackets, forcing it to maneuver to control range. I'm thinking something like (use a disruptor damage table, including overloads):

range:	0	1-2	3-4	5-6	7-10	11-15	16-22	23-30
hit:	6	5	2	4	3	2	3	1

I realize this is wierd (its off the top of my head and probably has all kinds of flaws), but would force both ships into maneuvering.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 12:59 pm: Edit

Loren Knight,

If I can plow any amount of energy (the warp-only restriction isn't that big a deal as Warp is the majority of power on most starships), you are giving a race the same thing as generar reinforcement, but at a 5-for-1 ratio rather than a 1-for-2 ratio.

Combined with a full normal set of shields, this is excessively powerful as ships will be nearly invulnerable.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 01:19 pm: Edit

John,

As I understand it, there isn't any normal, full set of shields. The warp shield would be all they get.

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Quote:

The idea is that this new race would not use standard shields but use their warp field in a new way to act as a shield. The device would be spread through out the control spaces so if the ship was uncontroled it would have no Warp Shield. It is powered by warp directly. Any warp not used for movement could be used for the Warp Shield. There is a single shield that deflects 5 points of damage per unit of warp in early years and six in later years. This one shield has a 360' coverage. It is regenerated each turn, it's level depending on the warp energy spent.

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By Henry Meyer (Henry2) on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 03:01 pm: Edit

Extremely interesting... I don't have time to read the thread but this idea of yours ranks right up there with the Borak from Jeremy Gray as something I'd like to see ADB do something with.

By Jay Paulson (Etjake) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 03:26 am: Edit

The problem is they punish a ship for moving. In a duel it is already an advantage to sit and be able to reinforce at one for one on a single shield. Being able to tac and put 20 points of power into 5 for 1 reinforcement is nuts.

By Tim rodgers (Mericon) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 12:21 pm: Edit

I have an Idea. Have sheild generator boxes say destroyed on Drone hits. This limmits how many shild points it could generate and limit it after it takes some damage. It would not be able to generate as many shields. It would also be a prime Hit and Run target.

Another Idea off the damage side is to limit how long thay can keep them up at full strength. say over heat or less efective as more power is put into them thay leak at higher levels.

One asapect I thought of is say tackintell a ship protected in such a maner would be more difficult to gain Info on the ship becase of the warp feild's generated. as for EW I could see it working agenst the generating ship becase of the strong signal it would create.

I realy like the Idea however.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 08:29 pm: Edit

Hi all, I have returned from my trip.

A couple of notes: Running a Warp Shield ship would require TOTALLY new tactics. Yes, you could move very slow and put up a fairly big shield but you wouldn't be doing much else. A big shield requires a LOT of energy. Energy needed for weapons and movement. Sitting and bricking would also give the enemy to freedom to choose where and when things would happen. While the shield would cover a 360' field you weapons would not.

If you float a 150 point shield you must spend thirty warp to get it. You opponant gets that for two points of any power and a little maneuvering. You don't have to maneuver a lot to cover yourself but you would in order to bring your weapons into arch. Also note, the power curve of any race who gets this technology should be simular to the Alpha Sector standard. They should also have a equally unique weapon though perhaps with a limited arch. Something high in crunch but very tight arch. Hmmm, like two weapons, one LF and one RF.

Well, I've been away and my little son who I haven't seen for six days just got home so I'm off for now.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 10:10 pm: Edit

Even with limited firing arc weapons, the warp shield equipped ships (WSES_ could still inflict heavy damage because the opponent will have to get close in order to have any chance of penetrating the shield which the WSES could meet by tactical manuevers. This is a variant on some of the problems of the Jindarians.

Now, there are counter measures in the design, mostly involving making the WSES unable to shoot down large numbers of seeking weapons but you will still have a race built around a knife-edge balance that would often break down against opponents.