Subtopic	Posts		Updated
	Archive through March 29, 2008	25		03/29 01:55pm

SPP has asked me to clarify to him what I was talking about when I wrote S8.34. Of course, I don't remember, so I'm down to reading the rule (and a lot of supporting data including spending the last hour reading this topic) and trying to puzzle out what I meant. The rule could be argued as being slightly unclear, and this could be argued as meaning that in my traditionally sloppy rules writing, the rule didn't portray what I thought I meant. Or maybe it did. Certainly, if the rule said "as heavy ships, their PFs (if any) count as ...." we'd know it meant that the Lyran DN and BCH don't have to have PFs. But it doesn't say that (pity, I'd be off the hook and could have spent the last hour at hotbabes.com instead of this topic). Reading the hard letter of the rules, I can see where Petrick feels obliged to rule as he did (and I'm not sure he is wrong). Anyway, I will discuss it with him when he gets here this morning (or maybe after lunch since Leanna will walk in the door in 10 minutes and say "I am hungry") and we'll give you a FINAL ANSWER after which I want no more argument (either way) on this tempest in a teapot.

As for now, I want NO FURTHER POSTS BY ANYONE OTHER THAN ME AND/OR PETRICK on the Lyran BCH PFT crisis. And as I said, after we give you a final answer, I want no further posts. So, that means, you guys are DONE and we'll let you know.

Capiche?

(Capiche is Italian for "Do you understand me or am I going to have to slap you around a little?")

By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Saturday, March 29, 2008 - 11:54 am: Edit

[Deleted. J. Sexton]

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Saturday, March 29, 2008 - 12:34 pm: Edit

No further posts means no further posts. The G.O.D. has ordered this and I'm in S.W.O.R.D. mode.

Don't make me hurt you.



Jean
(Supervising Web Operations Research Director of the Game's Overworked Designer.)

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, March 29, 2008 - 01:39 pm: Edit

SPP, thank you for your prompt reply.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, March 29, 2008 - 01:55 pm: Edit

Jean, I think Gary's post was a cross post. Gary wouldn't have knowingly posted after being told not to.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, March 29, 2008 - 05:26 pm: Edit

Tos: We know this to be the case, and we have considered Gary's information in formulating our ruling. Jean deleted it to avoid confusing people.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, March 29, 2008 - 06:09 pm: Edit

RULING
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Regarding the Lyran BCH (and DN) and their status as a rather bizarre kind of "PFT without special sensors".
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S8.34 accurately reflects how the Lyrans used these ships. Since this is the purpose of S8, the rule is correct.
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The third paragraph of the introduction to S8 allows players to relax any of the S8 restrictions by mutual consent. It would be reasonable to conclude that any player who has never raised any objection to the Lyrans operating DNs or BCHs without PFs has given irrevocable agreement to this practice, allowing it to continue where it has been used.
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No rule can force players to purchase a product. So if you (AND your opponent) do not have Module K, you have a defacto agreement to a modified universe without PFs and can use a Lyran DN or BCH or a Romulan ROC without PFs.
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A further question has been raised, in as much as a strict reading of S8.34 and S8.33 would prohibit a Lyran force from including a DN and a BCH, as such a force can only have one PFT (and neither would count as "the second PFT using the scout slot" since neither has special sensors). This creates a double problem. One is that the Lyrans did use DNs and BCHs together just as often as any other empire did (so a rules interpretation prohibiting this is contrary to historical fact and thereby wrong), and the other is that it would put the Lyrans at a tactical disadvantage to impose a unique restriction on their empire. So, we must then impute a specific exemption to the Lyrans, allowing them to have both a DN and BCH (both functioning as PFTs) along with a scout (one which is NOT a PFT) as well as a few "casual PFs" stuck on various ships.
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Historical data indicates that at least one Lyran DN (later refitted as a DNH) was never given the PFT refit, and Lyran BCHs (all of which had PFT fittings) sometimes ran out of PFs, either ship could operate with less than the required four PFs or with no PFs at all. Indeed, the only way you can include a Lyran PFT, a Lyran DN (with a PFT refit) and a Lyran BCH in a single battle force under S8.0 is if either the DN or the BCH has no PFs (but it could still land and service the PFs from the other or the PFT, but could not benefit from a PFS as it did not have one of its own). It should be noted that you could replace the Lyran PFT with a PFT from an allied empire, or you could replace the BCH with a BCS from an allied empire (in which case the Lyran DN could not have PFs or the PFT could not be in the scout slot), or you could replace the Lyran DN (without PFs) with a DN (without PFs) from an allied empire, or you could replace the Lyran DN with an SCS from an allied empire (but only if you had no PFs on the Lyran BCH or if you replace the PFT with a scout that is not a PFT).
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One technical point, since all Lyran BCHs were built with mech links and repair boxes (it’s not a refit), you cannot "ignore this refit" and reduce the BPV by six points. Even without PFs, you have the "baggage" that was built into the ship. Hence, a new SSD showing the BCH without PFT facilities is not possible.
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Exhaustive research has raised the question of the scenario "Titan and the Unicorn", which has an SCS and a second PFT (in the scout slot) which is consistent with current rules.
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It should be noted that F&E rules (302.333) and (502.4) allow three PFTs in a battle force, but this does not contradict SFB rule S8 because S8 reflects "one battle out of many", where YOU do not get to assume that some other admiral gave up HIS ships so you can have more than the number allowed in S8. In F&E, you have the entire fleet, and the entire war, and if you want to reinforce Peter by robbing Paul, you are taking the responsibility for taking that risk.
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We trust that this resolves the issues. If there are further questions, EMAIL them to Steve Petrick. Do not post them anywhere on this BBS or any other.
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END OF RULING