Hi.


Thanks to the suggestion made by Jeremy Gray (in reply to a question I had raised here) I wanted to set up a thread looking at a conjectural (or not-quite-conjectural in FC?) 4-engine derivation of the Lyran CL.


As you know, the regular Cave Lion BB has the catamaran hull sections of the Tiger CA conjoined to an especially-large centre hull, with two engines (as opposed to the one engine on the Lion DN).

Also, we have the HDW as an example of a 4-engine derivation of the FF, and the NCA as one for the DD - but none, as yet, for the CL.


So, perhaps a unique ship design could be cooked up for a 4-engined CL-derivation - and create a Lyran equivalent of the Klingon B9?


In background terms, one could see it as having the same background explanation that the DNL has - in other words, it would be designed to suit the needs of the Far Stars Duchy, where the increased speed of the ship would be at a premium, and the reduced level of firepower (compared to a non-fast equivalent) less of an issue.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 04:56 pm: Edit

Remider: the Cave Lion is conjectural.

Is there a "Fast CL" to turn into this DNL?

It'd be funny to design and build one...last...CL (a fast one) to be converted into the DNL.

A "fast CL" would have 24 warp, doubled to 48, which would go a way toward compensating for a lack of power pack.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 05:05 pm: Edit

Well, the DNL has the same engines as the DN, but a reduced centre hull to allow the ship to have its increased top speeds.

So, could something similar not be done here - build a centre hull big enough to mount two more engines, but small enough to let the ship have the same dash speeds as the DNL?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 05:58 pm: Edit

I think so, but you're not going to use only off-the-shelf components to do it.

"Fast" is a combination of engines geared to go "fast" attached to a hull also built to go "fast".

If it was just a ratio of move cost to engine size, all war cruisers would be fast. Not to mention DWs and FFs. And the Tholian D

That's why I wondered if there's a fast-CL to turn into a NDNL (NDL?)

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 06:49 pm: Edit

I started playing around with an SSD, and then something occured to me. Should the Lyrans have the ability to upgrade a CL to a ship more powerful than a Lion DN? I'm not an F&E player, but do we want to create an option where the Lyrans might have been able to build/convert hordes of CAs->DNs and CLs->BBLs? I know there is plenty of precedent (some of "big butt" Gorns), and that the ship would be conjectural...just something to think about.

That said, if I was to continue work on this SSD, I think I'd be looking at a 50 warp, movecost 1+2/3 move cost "Light" BB, and by "Light", I don't really mean "Fast". Probably something with a center section similar, or perhaps a tad smaller, than the existing BB, with the same center engines as the BB, and with the side hulls of a CL. Firepower would be roughly equivalent to a DNH.

Dare we go there?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 06:49 pm: Edit

John:

For other class ships, I agree - but what is it about the DNL that allowed it to have the same 15-box engines as the DN?

Are they really the same engines, or perhaps smaller, yet 'fast' engines, which end up with the same number of boxes? And why does the DNL not use the 'fast' engines of the CF?


I am not too sure if there already is a fast CL, though.


Jeremy:

I see where you are coming from - for example, the Seltorian DNL is classed as such, but is not a fast ship the way other DNLs are - but if the main customer for this ship were to be the Duke of the Far Stars, we have already seen how having a fast command ship is desirable (such as Heartseeker, which Far Stars has instead of a regular DN) the main reason why he wouldn't just say 'I would like a Cave Lion, Your Majesty' would be because for the wide-ranging Far Stars Duchy, that extra speed is worth the sacrifice in firepower and durability that comes with not simply plumping for a BB.

Perhaps in Fed and Empire terms, a Lioness would be expensive enough to build that one would be as well just building another Cave Lion anyway, were it not for the unique circumstance that Far Stars is in that would warrant having a BBF/BBL.

(So, just as Heartseeker turned out to be a DNL, a conjectural Far Stars Avenger - listed in Distant Kingdoms as a Cave Lion - could actually have been intended to be a Lioness, 'upon further analysis of the data tapes'.)

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 07:03 pm: Edit

The Lyrans can already upgrade the DD-hull to a DNW, which was historical, that design is in the same league as the DNM/DNH.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 07:26 pm: Edit

Gary, maybe so. But I think for the ship to be a fast BB, and use CL hulls, your talking about hanging bigger warp engines on the CL outer hulls. I'm not sure that can be done. To get there, you might need to use CA hulls (which defeats your original intent in a 4-engine upgrade of the CL). I think what I'm suggesting is something more akin to the B8 than the B9. Move cost would just be different.

Scott, no disagreement there. It may be a non-issue, but I think it is something to consider. There are all kinds of ways to limit DN and BB production in campaigns, etc. Might be nothing to it.

Just a note: the name "Lioness" is already in use (see R9 - R11.90). Beat you to it Gary.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 07:29 pm: Edit

Maybe call it a Queen Lioness, then?

Perhaps the chance could be taken to give the Far Stars a Running Panther CLF anyway, and then use that ship as the basis for the BBF (or even a three-engine Fastcat BCL)?


(I remember the ISC got a fast CL in R11 - did the Lyrans not get a similar ship, or was it based on the war cruiser?)

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 07:37 pm: Edit

Gary,

I don't know the official rationale for the DNL class.

I would argue because they're 15-box engines doesn't make them off-the-shelf 15-box engines.

I suspect you'll find DNLs are a fudge. I suspect playtest showed a full-sized DN(Fast) with 3x 18-box engines proved too horrible to cometemplate or too difficult to balance. Result was DNL.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 07:39 pm: Edit

If game balance is an issue, would it also be an issue for a BCL or BBF - in that neither ship could be given the kind of fast engines that one could presumably give to a CLF?


Or, perhaps, could the outer engines be the same as on a CLF, but with the inner engine(s) the same as on a regular BC?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 09:53 pm: Edit

Gary,

Perhaps the die had already been cast by DNLs and the BBFs and BCLs simply followed established precedent.

When I think about what a big ship can do with lots of spare warp, I can see a rationale for dialing the fast SC2 ships back to avoid them becoming "superships" as compared to the standard versions.

I think SC2 "fast" ships were given fast engines, just not the CF's 18-box fast engines. Remember I'm guessing as to why this is the case.

Getting back to your Lyran, A standard CL would need to be stripped down, hull re-formed and possibly re-braced, its engines changed out for "fast" engines all before we talk about a conversion to a DNL. It would probably be easier to build a "fast" CL from the ground up. A special CLF always designed to be converted to a DNL when the center-part is ready.

You could have some fun with inverse "golden cub" missions where the CL is ready and the center-section is suffering through an extended development cycle and the CLF is pressed into service.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, July 23, 2008 - 10:13 am: Edit

I like the special CLF always designed to be converted to a DNL when the center-part is ready.

By Richard Sherman (Rich) on Wednesday, July 23, 2008 - 11:48 am: Edit

A different (or additional option) would to not think of a Lyran CL-based 4-engine ship as a fast ship at all, but merely another unique one. Perhaps a Lyran attempt to maintain battlecruiser superiority? A Super-heavy cruiser? Could have 40 warp, but still with a MC of 1 1/4 (same as a DNL, but definitely not fast...)

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, July 23, 2008 - 04:08 pm: Edit

Okay - so if we start with the CLF, then work out a BCF, then work out the BBL, what kind of progression should we have?


Firstly, aside from new engines, what needs to be altered on the CL to make it a CLF?


Background-wise, I think having all three ships intended for use in the Far Stars Duchy seems to be a good way to go.


(And Richard, I can see the use of a non-fast 4-enginer for the other duchies, but for Far Stars, i really want to see a fast BBL.)

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, July 23, 2008 - 05:22 pm: Edit

There are a lot of changes that don't show up in a SSD. There are two things commonly seen on Fast Ship SSDs.

2 heavy weapons are replaced with P-1s. Since the CL only has two disruptors, I'd expect this step would be skipped.

Replace engines with "fast" engines, usually warp-rich enough to allow the ship to move "speed 36" if it were possible to break the game-imposed speed-30 warp speed limit. That translates to 12-box engines.

That would probably do it. The CLF would look like a standard CL, with larger 12-box engines.

When it converts to a DNL, you'll probably find that the center section would use 10-box engines for a grand total of 44 warp on a 1 1/4 move cost.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, July 23, 2008 - 06:14 pm: Edit

Okay.


Would the thinning out of the centre hull on the DNL compared to the DN be a good basis for what a BCF centre hull would look like (compared to a BC or BCH)?


Also, I was thinking that Sprinting Cat or something might sound better than Fastcat, as far as actually naming the BCF hull type...

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, July 23, 2008 - 08:04 pm: Edit

The BCH is the Hellcat.

Firecat?

We may have to fall back on Hellcat-F.

Pity Cheetah has long been taken...

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, July 23, 2008 - 08:27 pm: Edit

Well, the spec might be closer to a Wildcat than a Hellcat - Firecat isn't bad, though!


(And Inferno Cat for the BBL?)

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, July 23, 2008 - 09:11 pm: Edit

Would the BCF have 4 disr or 3? 4 ESG or 3?

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Wednesday, July 23, 2008 - 10:01 pm: Edit

The Battle Control Ship is the Firecat already.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, July 23, 2008 - 11:27 pm: Edit

The BBL should be the Cheshire Cat.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 09:30 am: Edit

Sprinting Cat, then? Or Running Cat? Or Plains Cat?

Hmm...


Anyway, about the BCF.

The Desert Lion DNL keeps the ESGs of the DN, but has one less disruptor - which slightly reduces the offensive firepower, but retains the drone/hellbore defence of the Lion.

Thus, let the BCF keep the ESGs, but have only three disruptors.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 10:02 am: Edit

I've got an SSD in QA for the BCF with 3 Disr and 3 ESG. Probably won't be able to post it until tonight, unless someone volunteers to host it temporarily for purpose of discussion.

By Peter David Boddy (Pdboddy) on Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 11:00 am: Edit

I can slap it up on a googlepage if you wish?