Appropriating this thread for current Andro playtest reports.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 03:46 pm: Edit

Game 1
Peter Bakija (Andro +2APR) vs Andy Koch (Fed)

T1: Andro goes 16/30. Fed goes 17 all turn. Fed cuts wide right, Andro flies straight and turns in, trying to hook around the Fed. Ships end turn at about R9, facing each other. Andro breaks even on battery power.

T2: Andro goes 31/16 spending a bit of battery power in EA. Fed goes 12. Andro comes in, and at R5, sends out the T-bomb such that the Fed is compelled to hit it with his #5 shield when he moves (as he is slow, and just turned then slipped), which will give the Andro a R3 shot on the same damage shield. To avoid this, the Fed HETs into the T-bomb, taking it on his lightly reinforced #1. The Andro has the choice of:

A) Turn into R2 off centerline with the Fed, where they will exchange fire, the Andro will be crushed by 4xOL photons, 6xP1, and 2xP3.

B) Slip out to R4, giving the Fed a range 4 shot on the rear panels. Hopefully, the Fed will hold fire, and the Andro will get to HET into R3 for a shot the next impulse, which is better than R2.

The Andro chooses (B), slips out to R4, and hopes the Fed holds fire. The Fed doesn't hold fire. All 4 overloads hit. The Andro takes about 50 internals and dies.

The 2 extra APR meant a bit more speed while maintaining battery parity. But didn't save it from being hit on the rear panels by 4 overloaded photons.

Conclusion: +2 APR certainly doesn't help the Andro vs the Fed. But doesn't hurt either.

(will also e-mail these to Petrick)

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 04:07 pm: Edit

Game 2:
Peter Bakija (Andro +2 APR) vs Andy Koch (LYR)

T1: Andro goes 16/30. Lyran goes 20 all turn. Ships close, with the Lyran dithering a bit. Near the end of the turn, he raises 2xESGs at radius 3. The Andro keeps the range open (about 8) and turns to get behind the Lyran. Nothing is fired. Andro breaks even on batteries.

T2: Andro goes 31/21. Lyran goes 20 with a bit of 31 at the end of the turn. Andro stays behind the Lyran most of the turn, waiting for the ESGs to go down. Lyran eventually gets Andro near his FA, and then the ESGs go down. The Andro turns in. Ships end the turn at about R8. Andro breaks even on batteries.

T3: Andro goes 31/21/16. Lyran goes 20 most of the turn, with a bit of 31 near the end of the turn. Andro gets in behind the Lyran, and HETs in to take a shot. The Andro gets R3 on the Lyran's #3, and fires without displacing, hitting with 2xTRL and 6xP2 for 49 damage. Lyran has 12 reinforcement (14 in general and 5 batteries) and takes 3 internals, including 1 warp engine. Andro turns and runs off, Lyran turns in to pursue.

T4: Andro moves 31/21/16. Lyran moves 20 most of the turn. Early in the turn, the Andro gets to R3 on the Lyran's #6 shield, fires 6xP2, knocking most of it down, and displaces away. Lyran HETs to pursue. Andro runs away, Lyran pursues, announcing ESGs late in the turn.

T5: Andro goes 21/31/16 and is at about half battery capacity. Lyran goes 14/27/14. Andro turns in to attack the Lyran, who puts up ESGs at Radius 3. When the Lyran turns in, the Andro does a second HET to move off his down #3, and sends a T-bomb out that the Lyran can't avoid hitting. Lyran accelerates to 27 and fires a full alpha strike into the Andro's forward panels for exactly 60 damage, 'causing 1 leak point. The Andro cruises by, only gets to fire 2xP2 into the down shield (3 internals--another warp but nothing else important) and opens range, avoiding the ESGs. The Lyran eats 10 t-bomb damage on his #5. The Andro then empties his batteries with a mid turn speed change, drops the forward panels, fills the rear panels and absorbs 7 power into batteries, immediately using most of that to refill the phaser capacitors. Next impulse, Andro drops panels to standard, absorbing 16 power into the batteries, filling them up to about 19 power. The Lyran fires a couple more P1s at long range doing 2 internals (warp engine and TRL...). Andro flies away, puts up its panels, and ends the turn at about R15, radiating some power into space, absorbing another point (ending the turn with 19.8 battery power).

We called the game at this point on account of needing to stop. T6, the Andro (with now 48 capacity in forward panels but half full rear panels) would come in to attack the ESGless, slow Lyran, either wrecking its #1 or hitting a weak shield for significant internals, displace away, and not take much damage in return.

Seemed like a much more even game, but still the Andromedan was fighting up hill the whole time. And needed to make a second HET to avoid getting killed outright (by ESG ram followed by alpha strike) on T5. Although if the Lyran doesn't kill a TRL with 2 internals at R15 on T5, the Andro's T6 attack is much more damaging.

Conclusion: 2 extra APR helps the Andro move faster for longer in a fight where it needs to be fast and maneuverable. Seems reasonable in this fight.

By Barry Kirk (Barrykirk) on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 04:39 am: Edit

Game in progress report

BaldnForty (Andy) vs Bane (ISC)

T1: Andy goes 16/30 ISC goes 14. ISC started coming up from bottom of board. Andy Turned to Direction C. At a certain point ISC turned to Direction F and Andy Turned back to D. ISC launched a EPT G on impulse 19. By sideslipping Andy was able to stay away from the EPT. On impulse 30 range was 5 with the ISC off the FH of the Andy. Since Andy was unable to keep the ISC in FH without eating the plasma on Impulse 31, I displaced to the other side of the ISC on impulse 30. Impulse 31 the ISC launched a rear plasma F.

T2: Andy plotted a speed of 28/15. ISC plotted speed 0/10. Impulse 1 the plasma F hit the front PA for 20 points of damage. Impulse 2 Andy reached the magical range 3 with the ISC in FH arc. The alpha strike scored a single internal on the ISC. Andy turned and ran to outrun the EPT. Impulse 3 or 4, I made a critical blunder and dropped my front PA panels dumping 20 points of power into the rear panels. The ISC reminded me of that error by unloading his PPD on me. When combined with a really lame Phaser volley at range 8. Andy took 2 volleys of 6 and then 5 internals. This took out a TRL and the 2 RS P2.

T3: Battle is on hold until next weekend...

So far, the extra power is nice, and that blunder probably cost me any possibility of winning the game...

I will wait and see when it's over.

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 10:02 am: Edit

It still annoys me to no end that the Andromedan is the only race to lose half of its heavy weapons on a single torp hit.

By Stephen McCann (Moose) on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 10:11 pm: Edit

The Andro is also the only race that has to take at least 61 damage (assuming front panels) to even threaten that first torp hit. It is also the only race that can take 60 damage and a turn or two later have practically pristine defenses again. There are tradeoffs for everything Glenn.

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 12:16 am: Edit

But that turn or two later, this ship really is ineffective, and for an andro turns (as is speed) is life (especially in a closed map).
And yes, 61 internals (assuming front panels) is required, but after that, short of smart toggling, no FH protection.

By Kerry E Mullan (Nomad17) on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 01:23 am: Edit

so glenn you're sayin inept plyersw die while good players work the angles properly?

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 08:40 am: Edit

Glenn wrote:
>>And yes, 61 internals (assuming front panels) is required, but after that, short of smart toggling, no FH protection.>>

So you smart toggle.

-Peter

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 10:27 am: Edit

Kerry, in no way did I ever imply that. My original point is that losing half your heavies on a single internal is a game breaker for me. Sure, I can still maintain a good defense, but that'll get whittled down by any player while I try to survive with my remaining TR and ph-2s.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 11:13 am: Edit

Glenn wrote:
>>Sure, I can still maintain a good defense, but that'll get whittled down by any player while I try to survive with my remaining TR and ph-2s.>>

My experience playing the ship indicates that in all likelihood, by the time you take internals and lose a TRL, your opponent has either reasonable internals or a few down shields, such that the follow up strike with the 1xTRL and P2s as he is shooting into your mostly regenerated defenses will pay off. Well, that or you are already outright dead due to a bad match up, in which case, losing the 1xTRL on a stray internal is mostly irrelevant (see: Andro vs Fed above...)

And repairing a TRL isn't really that difficult--it only costs 5 points; you can fix a TRL and a P2 as a P3 in two turns.

-Peter

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 01:44 pm: Edit

Peter, agreed. But it'll take another 2 turns to arm the TRL. That's three turns of having only 1 decisively offensive weapon.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 02:00 pm: Edit

Glenn wrote:
>>But it'll take another 2 turns to arm the TRL. That's three turns of having only 1 decisively offensive weapon.>>

The TRLs aren't really any more decisively offensive than the P2s. The TRLs only do significant damage at R3 or closer (just like P2s). And if you are firing at R5, you should be firing on an already down shield. In which case, the 7 or 8 internals (plus whatever you can milk out of the P2s) are likely to be unanswered internals.

Yeah, losing a TRL on a stray internal is a pain, but to get that stray internal, the Galactic ship has to have done really significant damage to you. Meaning that you have probably done significant damage back (2xTRL/6xP2 off centerline does, like, 40 damage, which will take down a shield and maybe done some in). And unless you are fighting the Fed (which is just going to crush you), the game is unlikely a forgone conclusion when you take that stray internal.

-Peter

By Kerry E Mullan (Nomad17) on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 02:01 pm: Edit

Well actually after the first tr hit repairing p2's would most likely be a quicker solution to damage then the TR as they repair in a turn and are usable the next.

As an andro taking 61 ints I hope you get at least 20 ints in return for that investment. In 2 or 3 turns though you will return with a foward shield of 40 ish(10 deg and probably 10 or so power in it) unless you were able to arrange a big dump to clear it all. So you return with a 40 point capacity while the galactic has a shield at 2 and is keeping that side protected. If you attack on the third turn your fronts should be at the 52 capacity range.

The 40 capacity still allows for an attack as your damage should have taking 4-12 points from his alpha.

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 02:31 pm: Edit

Actually, Glenn it is 4 turns. It takes 2 turns to repair a TRL, because it requires 5 points of repair.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 02:47 pm: Edit

The bottom line for me is that the Andro is inherently broken for tourney play because it has such lopsided RPS issues due to the odd technology interactions. I'm not convinced that *any* fix will make the Andro a good tourney ship. (Andros can be lots of fun in a regular SFB campaign).

+2 power seems to be still took weak of a fix - but if you make the Andro effective against DF ships, then you've created a problem against BP.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 04:07 pm: Edit

Ted wrote:
>>The bottom line for me is that the Andro is inherently broken for tourney play because it has such lopsided RPS issues due to the odd technology interactions. I'm not convinced that *any* fix will make the Andro a good tourney ship.>>

I think this is a given. Yes. The technology issues mean that the ship is always going to have preposterous RPS issues, and in all likelihood, *any* Andro TC is either going to be too weak or too powerful.

Let's just accept that this is the case, and go from there. The current Andro plan (current +2 APR) is certainly going to be better than the now legal Andro. And it is unlikely that it will be too powerful. But might be almost competitive. As this is what SPP has oked for trying to make work, let's just try and make it work.

-Peter

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 04:52 pm: Edit

Paul, correct, except on the 4th turn, it can fire. That's why I said 3 turns without the weapon.
As to all other points mentioned, I cannot disagree.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 04:52 pm: Edit

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Quote:

Let's just accept that this is the case, and go from there. The current Andro plan (current +2 APR) is certainly going to be better than the now legal Andro. And it is unlikely that it will be too powerful. But might be almost competitive. As this is what SPP has oked for trying to make work, let's just try and make it work.

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By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 06:05 pm: Edit

Heh--see, if we do a good job with the Andro playtest, maybe SPP will let us try something else :-)

-Peter

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 12:12 am: Edit

Game 3
Peter Bakija (AND +2 APR) vs Kerry Mullan (WBS bb)

T1: Andro goes 16/30 (maintaining battery levels at even). GBS goes 16/31 at end of turn. Shark launches a 4 drones in 2 pairs and drifts wide right, launching all 4 shuttles over the turn. Andro aggressively engages the drones, killing all 4 by the end of the turn. The Shark fires 4 std disruptors at the Andro's front panels, hitting with 3, doing some degradation. Andro dumps some battery power into filling the capacitors, making some space. Ships end the turn at about 10 hexes, and the Andro absorbs 1 power and dissipates the rest into space, leaving the front panels empty with 2 degradation.

T2: Andro goes 16/30/16 (actually adding 1 power to the batteries in the long run). Shark goes 14/25/19. Andro turns in and Shark launches 4 more drones in pairs. Due to a favorable speed chart (i.e. the drones didn't move on an important impulse), the Andro gets to HET into R3 off the Shark's #1 shield, off centerline. The Andro announces displacement and fires 2xTRL and 6xP2. Shark holds fire. Andro does maximum damage (44), doing 13 internals after 1 reinforcement. Shark loses 2 warp, a P3, and fluff. Andro displaces away from the Shark and its drones. Shark HETs to pursue, and as the Andro is about to leave R8, it fires 6xP1 and 3xOL disruptors at the Andro's rear panels. All the overloads hit, the phasers roll low. Panels need to be reinforced, but only barely. 1 leak point kills a hull. The Sharks shuttles fire P3s for 1 extra damage as well. The Andro moves out to R9 and starts doing excessive complicated math to empty batteries and dump the panels. The Andro has to turn off his forward panels, drop the rears to standard (absorbing 2 power in a mini dump), fire his last two phasers into space, refill the capacitors, make a second HET, speed change the last quarter of the turn, and operate a transporter to make room in the batteries for the 19 point dump (meaning the Andro absorbed 21 total power over the turn). All in time to get the panels up on impulse 1 of the next turn. All the whamdiggery works, emptying the panels, filling the batteries up to 19 and a fraction. While the rear panels are down, the Shark fires 2xP3 and a standard disruptor, but they all miss. Ships end the turn at about R12, Shark near the middle of the map, Andro against the wall.

T3: Andro goes 15/30 and reloads. Shark moves 14 all turn. Andro puts his panels back up and runs along the wall, being pursued by 6 drones. Shark tries to pursue, but has no #1 shield, making it difficult, but does launch 2 drones to get 6 on the map. Late in the turn, the Shark speeds up to 15, threatening R8, but the Andro turns out to keep the range at 9+ The Andro manages to line up all 6 drones to get killed with the t-bomb, so the Andro transports the bomb and kills all the drones. Late in the turn, the Shark fires 4 standard disruptors at the Andro's rear panels, hitting with 2 for 6 damage. The Andro fires 2xP2 at an up shield at long range (mostly to open battery capacity) for a few points of damage, and then 2 more P2s at long range at the Shark's down #1 after he turns in (scoring 1 internals--a P3). The shark launches 2 new drones after the old ones die, and the ships end the turn at about 12 hexes. The Andro absorbs 1 power and radiates the rest into space (at this point, Andro panels are free of any energy but have some minor degradation).

T4: Andro goes 15/30/21. Shark goes 14 most of the turn. Andro turns around to attack. The Shark launches 4 more drones as the Andro comes in. The Andro gets to R4 on the Shark in his FA facing the Andro's front panels, but the Shark declines to fire. The next impulse the drones don't move (making the Andro's life, again, much easier), the Shark has to either turn to face the Andro with his down #1 or let the Andro fire at R3 unanswered. Not wanting to take 30 internals, the Shark goes forward and the Andro slips into R3 from the Shark's #2 shield. The Andro (now R1 from at least 4 drones) announces displacement and fires 2xTRL and 6xP2. Andro rolls ok for 41 damage, taking down the Shark's #2 and doing another 9 internals (hitting 2 more warp, a disruptor, and a couple P3s). The displacement is successful, and the Shark resigns--he is down both his #1 and #2 shield and has about 22 internals (including 4 warp). The Andro is virtually untouched (empty panels, minimal degradation, mostly full batteries) and has escaped death by drone.

Conclusion: The 2 extra power again certainly helped (although almost made the T2 dump not work...), and the Andro won. But only by virtue of not rolling a 6 three times over the course of the game (2x displacements and a second HET, any of which would have certainly killed the Andro if it failed), basically making the game a coin toss. If the Andro had to play this game twice more, it would (by virtue of probability) certainly lose one of them, and possibly lose the other. In any case, the 2xAPR addition certainly isn't making the ship too powerful so far.

-Peter

By Tom Carroll (Sandman) on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 09:05 am: Edit

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Quote:

But only by virtue of not rolling a 6 three times over the course of the game (2x displacements and a second HET, any of which would have certainly killed the Andro if it failed), basically making the game a coin toss.

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By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 10:52 am: Edit

Tom wrote:
>>This has always been a weakness with the Andro, even in it's most powerful incarnation.>>

Indeed. This is a game where the Andro killed his opponent and never took internals (which was what all the old, completely demoralizing games against the Andro looked like). On the up side, along with the "having to not roll a 6 three or four times during the game" issue, the ship is hard to hurt folks with, so maybe it is partially viable? The +2 APR, I suspect, certainly are helpful--the ship can run at 27 hexes a turn (without using impulse) and hold everything (2xTRL, disdev, panels at standard) indefinitely at this point. When the panels need to go reinforced and the phasers need reloading is when the batteries start going dry, but if the panels are reinforced and the phasers are empty, the ship probably has energy to absorb one way or the other.

This last game really did emphasize another huge problem with the Andro on a meta scale--the power accounting. When I figured out how to do my panel dump on turn 2, it took me 15 minutes of figuring, including openly discussing my plans with Kerry so he could help me figure it out. And in the end, the game winning panel dump was only possible by virtue of a fraction of a point of power (if I had 1 power or less in my batteries, I dump and win the game; if I had 1.1+ power in the batteries, I can't dump and the outcome is unclear, but boy, would I have no energy in my batteries). And even with a computer and my opponent helping me figure out my energy plans, I'm *still* not sure that I did everything right. And it is highly unlikely that anyone could figure it out by looking at my EA, even though I tried as hard as I could to keep everything as neatly noted and organized as possible. So I can't even imagine the trouble this sort of thing causes in real competitive play, where you aren't sharing information with your opponent and the game comes down to a small fraction of a point of power causing you to win or lose, and it being virtually impossible to account for after the game. Even if someone is being as honest as possible and trying really really hard *not* to cheat, just complicated fractional math errors can fall into the system and result in virtually untraceable problems.

-Peter

By Paul Scott (The_Rock) on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 11:18 am: Edit

Use a second sheet of paper - not the Andro EA form - to record battery in/out. The problem is not one of complication, it is one of recording space. On any given turn, you may need to make as many as six to ten line entries, with short notes for explanation to keep everything clear (e.g. - 3.2 3 phasers is Turn 3, Impulse 2, 3 power from batteries to recharge phasers).

After that it is just a matter of whether you have a fast adding brain or a slow one (like mine - although it was faster when I played the Andro). Online, I'd suggest using a spreadsheet to speed things up.

By Timothy Mervyn Linden (Timlinden) on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 03:59 pm: Edit

Note that failing a disdev is hardly an auto lose. Although I suppose sometimes it will be, moreso with the current version. Paul Scott had a less than 50% success rate with his disdev against me at origins I believe. (One game it was only the fourth and last try that worked), and still won all those games. And I think only in one of those games did the failures really give me a solid chance to win. Failing a HET is still likely a dead Andro, though.

For the accounting, that is what Lee Larsen started doing in his games. One separate sheet to track all the panel changes, and he quickly did it openly and explaining to his opponent, so they knew the status without asking and that he was doing things properly. But mostly to help save his sanity.

Tim.