The Orion Enclave is part of the Federation, but is more an associate member due to the arcane wording of its amalgation.

During the General War, it became a neutral zone and interned ships from the Roms, Klinks and Feds that entered its territory.

What kind of ships did they have?

Standard Fed ships would probably have been crewed and owned by starfleet. And Pirate ships are NOT owned by the Orion government.

Did they operate "Wyn style" Orion pirate hulls without doubling and without the Wyn overloading?

I propose that they built some ships that followed much of the Orion Pirate design ethos, but were distinct. CL, CW, DD, DW and FF style. Heavier than the corresponding Orion pirate ships and without the stealth or cargo...

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 11:14 pm: Edit

In Module R8 there are some Warp Refited/National Guard DDs, R8.47, and NG DDVs that operate in the "Police Ship" role.

The NG DD can land on planets, like Orion-Pirate ships, so they are constructed similarly (possibly in the original Orion yards).

Module Y2 shall have some additional ships that could be held over for future NG-Orion ships during the time where the Orions left the Federation.

I think the Orion government would stay away from Pirate ship designs w/ a 10' pole. Could you imagine them showing up with a "White" Government BRH while Pirate BRHs have been looting Federation shipping during the interveening years?

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, November 07, 2008 - 07:31 pm: Edit

What?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, November 07, 2008 - 07:39 pm: Edit

Indeed, Y2 does have more Orion Enclave ships - the YCA being the most prominent new addition (which may or may not have been given an upgrade to GCA/LCA standards by the time of the secession).


So, I'd say that looking for an Orion GCA would be high on the list.


It does note how the Andromedans killed all of the remaining ones between Y189 and Y193, however...

...which is unfortunate, given that the Andros' general assault on the UFP proper didn't hit until Y192.


(Maybe the Invaders were hoping to do to the Orions what they later did to the LDR?)

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, November 07, 2008 - 08:04 pm: Edit

Gary Carney:

Do not read into published history what is not there. You are choosing to interpret the comment about the Federation agreeing to a truce if the Andromedans only occupied Romulan space was in force from the Beginning of the Invasion in Y188. That is not necessarily the case. The truce might have only been that one year (Y192), and maybe only part of that year. The Orion Enclave could have sustained losses between Y188 and Y191, and taken more when the big assault hit in Y193.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, November 07, 2008 - 08:13 pm: Edit

But the line in C2 specifically refers to the Andromedans attacking the Federation in Y192 - but yes, it might have been the case that the UFP was more heavily engaged in Y188-Y191.

However, even if the UFP was not assaulted to the extent that, say, the ISC was until Y192, one could still picture the Enclave's National Guard as suffering repeated raids, and being relatively more vulnerable to these than the rest of the Federation (ironically, due to the stipulations the Orions themselves were sticking to.)

Indeed, if the Andros were not shown to be attempting to conquer and occupy major Federation worlds at this time, it might have made it less pressing for Star Fleet to not simply override the agreement and send their own forces - or rather, send them at the expense of patrolling other provinces - at least until the Orions were forced to admit that their own fleet was on the ropes.


(And since it's highly unlikely that Star Fleet would agree to let Orion have their own X-ships, a post-Y192 paradigm would by necessity see a greater Star Fleet presence in the Enclave - with a yet-to-be-detailed set of consequences for all parties involved.)

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, November 08, 2008 - 11:17 am: Edit

Be careful what you read into things, Gary.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, November 08, 2008 - 11:38 am: Edit

Gary Carney:

See for example (SH208.0) "One Man Band" set in Y189 in which the Federation is attacking an Andromedan base with supporting units in Federation territory.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 05:15 pm: Edit

Over in the War Corvette proposal thread, SPP noted that, for various political reasons, the prospect of the Dragon Cartel building "export" ships for use in the Orion Enclave National Guard (in the same vein as how the Cluster Cartel built the first fish ships for the WYN Navy) was not acceptable.


With the absence of that avenue taken into consideration, juat what kind of scope does the Enclave have in terms of designing and fielding new starships for its own later use?

Could its yards be able to come up with a new generation of hulls intended for Enclave use; or would it be more likely that they would import hulls from other parts of the Federation, re-commission them for their own use, and re-tool their yards and support facilities in order to maintain them?


My thought was that, perhaps the Enclave might have looked into having a set of blueprints drawn up for some newer ships by the time of the General War; but, due to the Coalition agreeing to respect Orion neutrality prior to its return to the Federation after Operation Wedge, the plans were deemed unnecessary, and left dormant until the Andromedan War.

(This would be somewhat akin to the ISC plans for their war cruiser design. While the first plans were drawn up as a contingency effort prior to the Pacification, only a single prototype was actually built prior to Y189; when the sheer scale of losses inflicted by the Andromedans forced the Concordium to rush the class into full-scale production.)

But the inclination, or even ability, of the Enclave to design and field such units would depend on how its relations with the rest of the Federation would have rested by the time of the Andromedan War; something which may need to be addressed by the time the Andros are formally introduced to Federation and Empire.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 11:50 pm: Edit

I don't think the Orion Government ever stopped being able to build ships.

Even if they had converted their yards to building "Fed Standard" designs, there is just too many jobs at stake.

And too much potential to waste... Where do you think the guys that built the "pirate" shipyards came from? For that matter, what is the chance there even are mobile shipyards for the Orions?

I had alwasy thought that the "Orion Pirate" ships are actually the "Orion National Guard" ships that the Orion Merchants sell no questions asked if cash is presented. And then the Pirates make their modifications to install "nonstandard" weapons and such...

Otherwise, everyone would blast "Orion Pirate Type" hull forms on sight. But if they were actually fairly common in their legal usage...

Another SPP question.

By George Duffy (Sentinal) on Thursday, August 16, 2012 - 06:00 am: Edit

I think you have drawn a misconception as to what forces the "Orion government" has and is allowed to build.

First off, it is a member world just like Tellar, Cygnus and Arturus. I don't believe it has the same equal status of say Earth, Vulcan or Rigel (but I could be wrong there). The total forces it have would be; a few "Federation" national guard ships, a few "auxillary" cruisers (as to their size I don't really know), the three "Orion" old style destroyers and ground based defenses on it's homeworld and nearby colonies including fighters and gunboats).

The Federation would never allow one of it's member worlds to build it's own separate home fleet. If the member world wanted to upgrade their own national guard, it would have to rely on whatever hulls Starfleet would be willing to part with and only on the basis of replacing older worn out hulls within the National Guard.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Thursday, August 16, 2012 - 08:13 am: Edit

George; unless I am mistaken Gary is referring to the period of the General War when the Orions withdrew from the Federation, and declared themselves a neutral power.

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Thursday, August 16, 2012 - 01:01 pm: Edit

I always wondered about that. How is it that the Orion Enclave PHYSICALLY could inter ships violating their seceded territory? Surely it would have to involve a fleet, right?
Or is it partially a diplomatic thing?

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Thursday, August 16, 2012 - 07:45 pm: Edit

Orion is not "just another member world" - it joined the Federation with special conditions and privileges.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, August 17, 2012 - 01:45 pm: Edit

According to GURPS Federation, Orion is noted as being a full member (when it wasn't neutral) in its planetary profile, but isn't explicitly noted as one in the Planets of the Federation section on page 29. (It is noted that the political machinations surrounding the controversy would be pucblished in the upcoming Orion Pirates sourcebook.)

But the emergency clause the Enclave called upon in Y171 is but one of many exemptions and benefits that Orion had negotiated for tisself back in the Y45 treaty; it's explicitly stated that the Federation agreed to what was essentially a bad deal on their part out of the sheer need to involve the Orion Military Authority (and the powerful Orion economy) in the Romulan war effort.


Actually, it would not be the only case of an SFU power making specific allowances for a prospective new member realm; when the Mæsron Alliance offered full membership to the Federal Republic of Aurora in Y209, the Aurorans only signed on after a counter-proposal guaranteeing them complete autonomy in their own space, and the right to continue constructing their own ships, was accepted by the Alliance Council. There was even a narrowly-defeated vote to dissolve the alliance in the Auroran Senate in Y218, when the Mæsrons failed to support the FRA against a long-range Trobrin strike earlier that year. Although, that strike was in response to the FRA entering a war that the Trobrin was fighting against the Probr at the time; the non-FRA Mæsrons had decalred thsmelves to be neutral in that conflict, showing just how "autonomous" the Aurorans remained even as members of the Alliance.


The article on capital defences published in CL41 has an entry for the Orion system; it's noted as having a squadron of four "destroyers" (presumably the Orion-hull ships from Module R8, which the Enclave was noted as using instead of the G-series hulls in the rest of the Federation) as well as a pair of auxiliary cruisers.

Interestingly, it does note that:

---

Quote:

There are normally no "pirate" ships in-system, although there were as many as six of these during the brief period of Orion neutrality during the General War.

---

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, August 18, 2012 - 08:27 am: Edit

Note that the Orion Space SPECIFICALLY does their own policing. IIRC from PD.

So they COULD have heavy Orion Police Ships of whatever capacity they wanted/ could afford to build