I don't know that the IT is a short range weapon.

The medium torp has more effective range than a plasma G in that any plasma that gets to the end of it's range is being run out.

With a range 1 detonation, ships typically have 4 or so less hexes of run time.

Having said that, people seem to be treating it like a solitary F or G torp. Most people will just eat an F or a G. They don't think that they are that dangerous.

The danger of the Trobrin, is that he is very good at taking down shields a little at a time. He is also very good at hitting the same shield repeatedly. Those little taps add up quickly.

In almost all of my games, the Trobrin seems to end up with badly damage #3, 4, and 5 shields, while the opponent ends up with no #6, 1, and 2 shields.

What i've been finding is that i'm firing a volley every turn, which is kinda bizzare for a 3 turn arming ship. Each individual volley is not that dangerous, but they do add up.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 09:25 pm: Edit

The Trobrin are a race which is VERY different than any other Alpha race. It (well normally) mounts about 50% of there weapons on the LS, and 50% on the RS. (unless it has an FP-torp).

Hence the Trobrin can safely fight out any of it's 6 shields, because it can always shoot 50%, and then next turn, bring the other side to bear and shoot the other 50%.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 11:32 pm: Edit

The IT is shorter range than you'd think. At first blush, it might appear that an ITL matches up with a plasma-F. But a plasma-F will still do 15 at range ten, whereas the ITL is down to 6 at that range. Put a couple p3s into it, and you can reinforce the rest with batteries.

While a ITM matches up a little better with a G-torp, it's still weaker in the crucial 11-15 bracket. And a ship with a G-torp is not going to be launching G-torps, it's going to be launching EPT-Gs, or perhaps a standard and a pseudo. The ITM doesn't compare well to that.

Unless of course, you change through it.

My point is that you can run out the ITs without surrendering too much position. Then it's just a matter of doing enough damage to counter the two uber-photons, er, IBs.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 01:31 am: Edit

I think the two IB/ITM CL is probably balanced enough that it doesn't need nerfing; it will require someone flying the same ship against it twice to run out the "Oh, I didn't know it could do *that* aspect."

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 01:50 am: Edit

I would agree with Ken, it doesn't look strong to me. I would go further and say that a heavy seeker opponent would kill it easily because the phaser suite is so weak.

One thing if you going to weaken it a bit: I would start by knocking down the shields a tad - say 27/24. This reflects the fact that Trobrin ships have weaker shielding than their opponents, but make up for it with the armor belt. I would make this change before reducing the weapon suite.

However, I'm not sold that it needs any reduction.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 01:40 pm: Edit

One other thing which should be considered, for the Omegan races, MANY shall fly like the Trobrin, in the sense that they can feed many torpedoes/heavy weapons backwards.

The Probr CA has 4xHEAT. 2LS/2RS (yeah the TA is FA). So it could still feed 2 torpedoes rear every turn.
The Phon CA has LS/RS SCs/EHs
The Alunda's HS's BBs have about 240-degree arcs usually (4 arcs).

So what might have to be considered is just lowering their shields all around to compensate for them being able to fire in so many directions.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 02:01 pm: Edit

I wouldn't say it's necessary, in general, to reduce shielding to make up for wide weapon arcs. Other factors make up for it. The Probr CA is vulnerable to the overrun, and will struggle to keep its speed up if it is firing fastloads every turn. The Phon CA is pretty wonky, but it does suffer from the fact that half its weapons are on each side of the ship. Like the Probr, it is vulnerable to the knife fight on the fixed tourney map. Also note that it has a battleship turn mode.

The Alunda has very wide weapon arcs, but its weapons are doing double duty as phasers and heavy weapons. It has a lot of different weapon systems, but struggles to power them.

I'm not saying these ships aren't strong, but that they already have weakness that compensate for their arcs. I would not recommend changing the shields from the tourney standard as that would make balancing them more difficult; the Trobrin is a possible exception only because it has armor.

By "Izzy" Gambliel (Izzboticus) on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 03:49 pm: Edit

I'd have to say that the single IB Trobrin would not scare me at all. I even think some of the non-seeker races would do well against it, especially the Lyran and DW ships.

I actually thought the 1-move Trobrin with 2xIB, 1xH and 2xL ITs, and 4 armor was fine.


Also, when will we see the Loriyill TC? I think that one is a bit weak, but would be easy to playtest.

By "Izzy" Gambliel (Izzboticus) on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 03:59 pm: Edit

Also, I've got to agree with the above. I think people just need to get used to Anti-Trobrin tactics. ITs are more scary than effective if you know how to use your speed, and the IBs are just Photons on steroids. Treat it accordingly and mizia it to death.

By Barry Kirk (Barrykirk) on Wednesday, October 01, 2008 - 12:02 am: Edit

That Heavy torp is a real monster. The 1 move trobrin with 1 Heavy, 2 lights, and 2 IB is probably unbeatable.

A 2IB ship can really dish out the damage, adding the heavy on the dish out turn can really cause problems.

The lights provide padding and also an overrun deterrent on the off turns.

As for the 1 IB ship. It's having trouble.

By Barry Kirk (Barrykirk) on Wednesday, October 01, 2008 - 12:05 am: Edit

I'll stay off SFB Online and work on SSDs.

The new Kol is almost ready.

I'll see if I can get the Kol finished and then start on the Loriyill.

I'd like to do the Ryn but I don't think the TEM are functional.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Wednesday, October 01, 2008 - 01:58 am: Edit

Barry, I'd love to see the Baduvai and Eneen.

By David Jannke (Bigslowtarget) on Wednesday, October 01, 2008 - 09:10 am: Edit

So I've been playing against the 24 warp 2/3 cost 1 IB 2 heavy and 1 light trobin. I chose a GBS with one drone and one phaser to see if a very average ship could take it. Haven't made any major mistakes, (though one watcher thinks I overcommitted turn four or so)

General conclusions as of turn 5: 1) Boy is that thing fast. 2) the arcs make it like fighting an ISC in a retrograde. The IB is less a photon on steroids (unlike a photon it hits) and more like a PPD on speed as it delivers all 14 points in one impulse.

I think the combination of weapon arcs, speed (especially on the first pass both into combat and out) and the IB make it more than a match for a GBS. I think the same would be true for a Klingon or Lyran. The Kzinti might balance the scales with fast drones.

To balance the ship against these alpha races I'd recommend changing the arc of the IB to FA from FH. This would reduce the level to which the Trobrin could run away while still being able to shoot, put a premium on skillful manuvering (to commit for a shot and still be able to get out without getting caught at range 8) yet not impact damage taking abilities, third turn arming power, etc.

By "Izzy" Gambliel (Izzboticus) on Wednesday, October 01, 2008 - 02:29 pm: Edit

"I'd like to do the Ryn but I don't think the TEM are functional."


I'd like the Ryn as well, but they're so unique and different that they should be put off until almost all the rest of the races are done.

By Barry Kirk (Barrykirk) on Wednesday, October 01, 2008 - 08:59 pm: Edit

Report of battle so far BigslowTarget (GBS 1PH1 and 1 Drone B in options) vs BaldnForty Trobrin CL Rev 2 ( 1 IB, 2 IT-Medium, and 1 IT-Light)

Turn 1, Trobrin goes high speed at beginning of turn to try to get position, turns in at range 14 so that by the time range 9 is acheived, it will be turn enabled to turn off. Dave is right that the FH arcs on the Light Torp and Implosion Bolt mean that the Trob can cross in front of it's opponent and go a few more hexes before getting out of arc.

Fired the RS Medium torp first, then an impulse later fired the FH Light torp and the IB at range 9 and veered off.

The IB hit and boinked against the brick. The GBS weaseled off the 2 Implosion torps. Using a preplotted decel curve. So he didn't need to emer decel.

On impulse 32, I fired the other side Medium Torp since I was going to be effectively disarmed for the next 2 turns. That was probably a mistake. He phasered it down on a turn when he had the power to spare since he was accel limited.

Note: I've discovered that Implosion torps really are only effective at range 10 or so, if your opponent is nice enough to run through them at high speed. Against anyone going slow or running them out, they are all but wasted at that range.

Any case, Dave's return disruptor and phaser fire on Turn 1 was below average damage and barely scratched a shield.

Turn 2, I started recharging my weapons and running.

Turn 3, Continued recharging weapons and running for my life. Note that I used a HET and Dave responded with a HET to keep with me. When he fired disruptors and phasers at me and did really poorly on the die rolls, I slipped in and fired 4 radiation phasers at range 4.

Turn 4, My weapons were finally charged, but Dave was on my tail about 13 hexes away. I started the turn with batteries, and phasers empty, and my heavy weapons sure do take a lot of power, for a 31 power ship anyway, on the last turn of arming. So, I started with TACing and weaseling the 6 drones headed my way. Impulse 13, I accelerated up to speed 10 and pursued Dave.

Turn 5, Caught Dave at about range 6 or so and fired 4 rad phasers and the bolt. That actually did some shield damage, but didn't get through. Also fired a Medium and the light torps. Dave returned fire punching a shield and armor and did about 6 internals. 1 hull, 2 warp, the light torp, and the 2 phaser 3s.

Than he weaseled off the 2 torps with weasel #2 of the game. After the explosion was over, I fired the last torp drawing off weasel #3.

At this point, the GBS is almost out of #1,2, and 6 shields. The Trob is out of armor and the #2, and #6 shields are gone and almost gone. #1 isn't too healthy either.

I'd say that the GBS has shown superior tactics but substandard dice rolling. The Trob is in a world of hurt and probably won't survive.

By Barry Kirk (Barrykirk) on Wednesday, October 01, 2008 - 09:00 pm: Edit

Ken,

Let me know when the mass driver missiles are functional and I'll do the Bad.

When the Plasma E is functional I'll do the Eneen.

By David Jannke (Bigslowtarget) on Wednesday, October 01, 2008 - 10:52 pm: Edit

The summary sounds about right, but I don't know about if the die rolls would have mattered that much and I think the tactics are just from looking into the ship and the discussions from before then applying what works against similar ships.

One note that Barry might not have noticed is that I'm getting low on drones, but he has rarely had to use those rad phasers against them. This is in part because of the high speed and in part because of not having to turn in to achieve FA. I think I did lose 3-4 or so to weaseling, but I only have 2 per rack left and it was quite frustrating watching one stack chase him around for almost its entire three turn endurance before he weaseled them.

By Barry Kirk (Barrykirk) on Friday, October 03, 2008 - 07:40 pm: Edit

Dave is correct about the drone defense of the Trob being speed. Actually, I think I took down 6 drones with one weasel. Took the collat though.

The Trobrin can't phaser down drones with P3. Only the P1 can do it. So drone defense on the Trob is relatively expensive. Especially for a ship with only 31 power.

Therefore, it needs to outrun the drones.

Not having to turn into the FA arc to get weapons bearing helps a lot.
On the frustrating side is the low damage output of the light torp. Even at really close range, it can't do as much damage as a Plasma F at range 10.
Since the main reason for the torps is pursuit deterence during run away recharge turns. It's not much good if you have to fire it at point blank range, at least point blank for plasma.

It might be a good tradeoff to improve the light torp to a medium, but narrow the bolt arc to FA.

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Saturday, October 04, 2008 - 01:27 pm: Edit

Link to Spreadsheet added to top of Topic.

By Barry Kirk (Barrykirk) on Sunday, October 05, 2008 - 07:40 pm: Edit

Koligahr 30 warp SSD is finished and submitted to Paul. Next up is the Eneen.

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Sunday, October 05, 2008 - 10:39 pm: Edit

Available in the library.

By Barry Kirk (Barrykirk) on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 08:04 pm: Edit

Paul,

The 30 warp Trobrin that is posted in the library is officially "broken" in that it can't be beat in skilled or even semi-skilled hands. So that one probably needs to be removed.

Can you put the two CL verisions of the Trobrin in the library. They are both in active playtest?

They are marked as Rev 1 and Rev 2.

By "Izzy" Gambliel (Izzboticus) on Tuesday, October 07, 2008 - 05:41 pm: Edit

"On the frustrating side is the low damage output of the light torp. Even at really close range, it can't do as much damage as a Plasma F at range 10.
Since the main reason for the torps is pursuit deterence during run away recharge turns. It's not much good if you have to fire it at point blank range, at least point blank for plasma."

It's either good for really slow short range passes, or used when the opponent is directly pursuing you. With it being in the FH arc, it makes it very hard to use as deterrent on reload turns when you have to be facing the opponent to use it.

By Barry Kirk (Barrykirk) on Tuesday, October 07, 2008 - 07:40 pm: Edit

If the Trob is moving slowly... It's dead, so that rules out that use of the light torp too.

Basically it's biggest use is as a damage soak.

By Barry Kirk (Barrykirk) on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 07:01 pm: Edit

E-mailed the following 30 speed cruisers to Paul.

1) Chlorophon
2) Drex
3) Probr
4) Maesron

Next up is the Baduvai.

Google Spreadsheet has been updated.