Subtopic	Posts		Updated
	Archive through December 23, 2008	25		12/23 04:33pm
	Archive through December 23, 2008	25		12/24 12:47am
	Archive through December 24, 2008	25		12/24 10:51pm

One F&E hex every 50 years? I believe the Federation is over 250 F&E hexes, not counting off-map areas. So just conquering the Federation would take about 12,500 years. Since the time span from the end of the "Early Years" to the beginning of X-tech is about 80 years, I think we can be confident that long before the Tholians could complete this conquest, technology would have changed so radically as to be unrecognizable.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 10:17 pm: Edit

Anyway, I have it on good authority that in Y273 the Slobovians annihilate the entire Milky Way galaxy with their deadly Quantumbabble Fugelizer!

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 10:23 pm: Edit

"If the Tholians are able to be more effective what is going to stop them from taking over the Alpha sector?"

The Feds, Klingons, and Romulans who are allmany times as large each. There would be no surprise and once the Tholians go on the offensive all three would notice immediately and respond with overwhelming force.

The Tholians do become more effective over time but they have never come close to building the forces they would need to begin an offensive that wouldn't lead to their demise.

So an ECM gaget won't have any bearing on whether or not they will be able to take over the galaxy.

There is one major question I have, and it would go a long way to defining some parameters; what year would such a device be introduced?

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 10:40 pm: Edit

NOT the deadly Quantumbabble Fugelizer!!!!!!!!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Not HERE Not NOW!

regards
Stacy

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 10:51 pm: Edit

I think the Tholians got fighter tech like everyone else and researched it. Fighters are really more of a concept than a particular technology. It's actually many smaller technologies that are researched and produced.

By Daniel G. Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 11:27 pm: Edit

Suggestion based on the idea of using web generators.

Let the Tholians set their web generators to spray out web energy charging the area around the hull of the target ship over a 16 impulse period with fine filaments of web as a kind of web cloud. This cloud would be inside the warp field of the ship that it is protecting allowing it to move with that ship. One point of energy sprayed out through the web generator produces 2 points of ECM due to the "Cloud" of web energy surrounding the ship. The Tholians can pump no more than 8 points of power through a single web generator through this method creating up to 4 points of ECM per generator.

The range of this ability would be limited to one hex (like a web snare) and could potentially be produced even before the 312th arrives. Web casters could use this ability at a much greater range but would be limited to using no more than 5 points of power (4 really) when lending beyond range 1.

This would cost the Tholians more in power than a drone race but allow them to generate slightly more points in ECM (4 vs. 3 for an ECM drone). Also the Tholians could do this every turn as needed. And finally, this would also count as natural ECM due to the fact that it is a cloud of web filaments surrounding the ship like a mini nebula and not an actual generator like those mounted on an ECM drone.

Does this sound possible?

By Daniel G. Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 11:40 pm: Edit

Oh, and the biggest reason the Tholians don't conquer the galaxy, lack of population. Loyal Tholians have to be on every ship. There are only so many of them. And look what happened the last time. Nearly wiped out.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 11:59 pm: Edit

That would be a factor. Loyalty for Tholians isn't much of a problem, but there can be rare exceptions.

The Tholians could manage to crew a lot of ships, but probably not stickly from the Holdfast. Resources are a major factor not just in building ships and defenses, but in growing a population. The Tholians are in a tight spot and know it.

Right now, and this is on a scale of the entire SFU history, they want to ensure the survival of their species AND way of life.

By Jonathan Jordan (Arcturusv) on Thursday, December 25, 2008 - 06:20 am: Edit

I thought Orions avoided the Holdfast. Or rather the Tholian Defenses were solid enough and well organized enough that no Cartel could get in there. Every Cartel map I've seen has them skirting around the Holdfast. Least that's one scourge they wouldn't have to deal with. One that I think is a lot tougher than the others.

Since hell, even War Torn Feds could kick the Klinks AND the Romulans out of their space, but no one can kick the Orions out.

Other than the Tholians it seems.


I did read over that Web Anchor Shuttle/Drogue thing. I think that could work. I could see it being logical and reasonabl ethat web would make for a "tougher" teather than what other Empires use, so Tholians could tow an ECM drogue faster. Weak enough if it sticks towards the standard sensor drogue in most ways that it shouldn't be overwhelming. But does fit in that logical "Okay, EW is important and we need to develop it however we can" arms race.

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Thursday, December 25, 2008 - 06:32 am: Edit

If Tholians must have an EW thingy, Daniel's idea seems to have the most logical approach.

By Ken Humpherys (Pmthecat) on Thursday, December 25, 2008 - 05:49 pm: Edit

While Web does effect thing like Cloak, ESG's, and Direct Fire it does so by acting like a wall. It is immobile. It says in the description it is an outgrowth of tractor technology.

Besides, ECM drones cost extra BPV, reduce offensive potential(2-3 less attack drones), and can be hit and destroyed. Unless you are a Selt, you cannot destroy any web based tech.

Being able to pull a Sensor Drogue (5 BPV after trade) at High Speeds allows you to counter the ECM Drones (You can generate +2 ECM or ECCM). This high speed ability should be at no extra cost as Tholians understand tractors better than the Galactics.

If you want to make it a specialized ECM Drogue platform. Then it should generate 4 ECM, for unlimited turns, and cost 4-6 BPV after trade in.

By Kevin Humar-Barrett (Cheethorne) on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 09:55 am: Edit

I think the best way to do this is with Web Generators, as it provides a unique solution for the Tholians that couldn't be copied by other races.

An idea along the line of Dan's seems good, but I would limit it to only 2 ECM for one point of energy that lasts for three turns. The trade off for the Tholians is that they get a persistent and cheap way to generate ECM (like other races), with little loss of combat ability (except on Neo-Tholian ships that would rather use their Web Casters every turn), but since it can't be destroyed or hurt by other players (except maybe the Seltorians), it doesn't generate as much ECM as the ECM Plasma or ECM Drone.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 07:14 am: Edit

If it did replace the generator, maybe.

By Kevin Humar-Barrett (Cheethorne) on Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 08:28 am: Edit

Why would it have to replace the Web Generator entirely?

Using the Web Generator to create some kind of sticky ECM web would use up the generator that turn, which wouldn't mean much for the beginning of the General War, but after the introduction of the Snares, it means you can't use the Snares that turn. For Web Caster equipped ship, it creates a very hard choice since they can't use either the Web Fist or the Web Caster that turn.

Seems like a suitable trade-off to me, and certainly comparable to the turn 1 or turn 0 (depending on the weapon status) launch of an ECM drone, although probably less significant than the use of a Pseudo-Plasma.