having no handy drone-size units to convert to EW-widget use, the Hydrans and Tholians independently hit on a way of using a probe round for the purpose.

A probe is armed normally (1+1, IIRC) and then fired at a unit within standard proble range (5 hexes), standard probe firing arc (FA). a firing usit can target itself. The probe lodges in a ship's warp field, moving with the ship. An ECPrb cannot be used on a unit without warp drive. (Exception: bases with active positional stabilizers may accept an ECPrb). If a unit can't accept an ECPrb the probe round is removed from the game.

The probe provides 96 impulses of +3 ECM to the target.

The ECPrb is considered to be an unarmnored, non ATP type I drone for most purposes.

The ECPrb can be turned off or attracted as a drone. Te effect of either is to remove the ECPrb from play. If the ECPrb becomes unguided, it is removed from play. If the ECPrb is tractored, or the target ship E-Decels, the ECPrb is removed from play.

the ECPrb may be targeted and deatroyed as a type I drone.

naturally, the ECPrb ECM does not stack with other ECM widgets.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 11:17 pm: Edit

John, I can't remember if this was on the auto reject list... Wild Weasle Probes were... but I don't recall anything on the list against ECM probes.

The only other point I wonder about is the "probe lodges in a ship's warp field, moving with the ship. An ECPrb cannot be used on a unit without warp drive."

I don't recall anything ever having been said that a ships warp field is a tangible force that could accept something the size of a probe... might I suggest a modification?

1. the ECM Probe can be lodged in one of the ships shields (causes 1 point of damage, probe effectively replaces 1 shield box for a period of up to (but not exceeding) 96 impulses.

2. Radical manuvers (Erratic Manuvers, High Energy Turns, will cause the Probe drone to cease functioning, just as Emergency Decelleration does. (and possibly side slips will cause the ECM probe to become dislodged from the ships shield as well?!?)

3. dropping the shield will cause the ECM probe to cease functioning.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 12:50 am: Edit

In the Tholian ECM thingie thread I proposed this (and I'm probably not the first), but had the recieving ship putting it in a tractor to keep it stationed.

By Jonathan Jordan (Arcturusv) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 04:21 am: Edit

Dunno about having to tractor it. If only because it seems a bit more clunky. Already got two turns of energy involved in firing it up. And have to have a third unit with a point at least in Tractor, and a working tractor beam. Makes it a lot less useful than the other ECM devices in that mission of "Help give that damaged ship a chance at escaping". Already seems somewhat difficult to use and involving a good deal of planning ahead, making sure the target is in arc, the probe is armed properly, etc.

I kinda like the imagery though of, "I shoot it at you and it sticks in your shields/hull!"

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 10:37 am: Edit

Probes are 360°. The target does have to be within six but it gets there a lot faster than a drone does.

The probe is a probe and asking it to generate 3ECM is already a big deal. Asking it to keep flying and keep station at whatever speed is more than any probe ever does. Just asking that it keep operating after the impulse it is launched is more than any probe.

So it seems to me that having the targets ship help out some is pretty reasonable. I don't believe a probe can keep station itself. It's not a drone and more a direct fir weapon thingie.

How does something stick to shields? I'd sooner believe it could attach itself to the hull but then it would be protected by ships shields. IF that were the case it would be vastly more popular than the ECM drone.

Yes, having to use a tractor to keep it on station if you are moving make it more difficult to receive it and arming it does require planning. Planning is a part of SFB that is slowly getting lost. It is a trend I'd like to counter and let FC go with that "less planning" trend. SFB requires hard though and solid planning to outwit your opponant, so having to plan to use this isn't a downside to me.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 01:15 pm: Edit

A tractor or a trator-teather is not unreasonable.

The idea is the probe round is samll enough to be carried along in the starship's warp bubble, not that it moves itself and matches speed with the target.

That's why an E-decel kills your ECPrb. It's also why attracting an ECPrb kills it. It can't move to its new "target".

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 01:45 pm: Edit

As probes have a range of 6 hexes it seems you are going to need something a lot larger than a probe to increase its endurance.

Probes are instantanous they do not "move" as a drone or shuttle.

Probes have a 360 degree firing arc when used to gain information (G5.14). If used as a weapon they may only fire directly ahead (G5.33), bases are an exception (G5.331) along with directed turn modes (G5.332).

Probes fired as weapons can pass through an ESG (G5.37). This makes this a very powerful tool for the Lyrans.

By Ken Humpherys (Pmthecat) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 03:33 pm: Edit

Lets not make this better than an ECM Drone or why would drone using empire use them.

My proposed modifications (with liberal uses of ideas from others):
Provides 2 ECM to ship from a special probe (Commanders option cost: 1 BPV each, Max: 2 per ship)
Arming: Turn one= 2 deck crew actions to load ECM probe into launcher.
Turn 2+= 1+1 to activate and arm.
At WS-II can be pre-loaded in launcher, WS-III is on last turn of arming.
Targeting: Can only protect launching ship.
Holding: Special housing provides a tractor beam that holds the probe near the ship. Cost for this beam is included in the arming cost of the probe.
Probe launcher is unavailable for use until housing is removed from launcher(1 Deck Crew action)
Duration: Lasts 96 impulses (3 turns).

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 04:02 pm: Edit

Ken,

That works but it's a little complex.

2 ECM won't cut it. it has to be 3 ECM for many in-and out-game reasons. I'd rather the thing last 64 impulses, forcing the ship to continually cycles 1 point of power into the probe launcher to keep its ECM widget prepped.

I figure the 1+1 arming cycle is a huge drawback as compared to ECM drones and ECPs. Having to constantly scrape that 1 point of power up is not always going to be fun or easy.

The opportunity cost of an ECM drone is trivial. One drone out of three turns' worth of launches. The cost of an ECP is higher: a pseudo-torp you don't get to launch at your enemy. A constant or near-constant 1 point of power is by itself higher still.

Personally, I'd do away with trying to involve deck crews in this. Deck crews are for shuttle bays and the probe launcher is not in the shuttle bay.

I'm game for target ship only but would wonder if bases have probe launchers. If they do, sure.

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 08:53 pm: Edit

Ken,

Don't forget you will have to move the deck crew to the launcher from the shuttle bay. One turn for the move (each way) needs to be factored.

SB, SBX have 2 Probes with 10 rounds.
BATS, BS, BSC, BTX, 1 Probe with 5 rounds.
CPL, Mobile Bases, Operational Base, SAM - None.

Also remember survey cruisers have a probe launcher with 10 rounds.

By Ken Humpherys (Pmthecat) on Thursday, December 25, 2008 - 06:25 pm: Edit

I could see this giving 3 ECM and/or lasting longer than 3 turns. Let's say that it gives 3 ECM per turn as long as 1 point per turn is allocated to the probe launcher. Cost is 4 BPV.

DC are used in many other ways than just the shuttle bay. To load a reload drone into an off line Drone rack requires 1 DC action. Spare Probes require 1 DC action to reload.

I just figured that this would not be loaded into the probe launcher by default as it would prevent it being used for information or Tac-intel (the default uses).

Why would this Ever be in the shuttle bay? Reload drones are not, reload probes are not.

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 01:07 pm: Edit

While you are using the probe launcher for ECM would you be able to launch a probe for information?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 04:38 pm: Edit

What we want is a simple fire-and-forget system. The more bells and whistles, requirements and conditions we add to it, the more unworkable or pointless it becomes.

Neither ECM drones or ECM Plasma carry a BPV cost. In the case of ECM Plasma, adding a BPV cost would require updating a coupole of hundred SSDs.

Is there some reason ECM cannot be a third function of a standard probe round? What fun is gained or important play balance achieved by making ECM probe rounds something else, with the record-keeping that goes along with that?

By Jonathan Jordan (Arcturusv) on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 04:59 pm: Edit

Dunno, there's a lot of strange things that can happen with a probe. Everything from killing monsters by some miracle, to Partical Probes firing heavy weapons. But I've never seen anything a proble can do that's more than instantaneous in nature. And nothing to suggest a probe is large enough to have the energy storage to be so. ECM drones and ECM Plasma such as they are have little Warp Engines or Plasma furnaces to provide them with the energy for their effect.

Not to say it couldn't be interesting. But it either starts to sound too complex or too silly depending on how it goes. From shooting a ship and sticking a probe in their hull, or having deck cew actions, special modifiations and tractor links.


Not exactly what people were working on but it made me think of it. ECM Probe type that when launched doesn't give you ECM drone effects, but gives you the effect of a Chaff Pack, just one powerful burst of ECM type effect to try and break seeking weapon lock ons.

That I could see fitting the nature of the probe perhaps. Maybe even giving them some temporary ECM, like the cloak fade in, 5 ECM, next impulse 4 ECM, next impulse 3 ECM, etc.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 06:22 pm: Edit

I think it should simply be an attachement to an probe, OR a special version you can replace a probe in your stock with. You can buy extra probes so just make an ECM Probe the same cost, just that no ship comes equipped with them. ! BPV, wooptidoo.

BTW, an ECM Drone does have a cost, just not an upfront cost. If you have a speed upgrade to buy you have to pay that to make it useful and it takes up a drone space in your drone rack, which matters. Your drone you replaced had a value that is traded for the ECM module so there is a basic cast.

Probes, OTOH, are almost never used in combat except after you are crippled (unless you are a legendary captain), so using an ECM Probe will have no impact on your weapons availability. That right there is worth the 1 BPV. With the ECM probe, a probe is now more than a free hit.

I think the ECM probe will need to be able to cover either the launching ship or another target. Having it held in the targets tractor beam means it cannot escort units without a tractor beam (making it automatically less usefull than the ECM drone).

Still, races with ECM drones will still want these as they remain an added capability. That is, why not have ECM drones AND ECM probes?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 06:23 pm: Edit

This is why I think maybe what the Tholians need is just a counter to the ECM drone and not a copy.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 11:41 pm: Edit

There's another way in which an ECM drone might have an additional cost, bit it's the player's choice. The ECM generator has an endurance of 6 turns but a Type-I drone only has 3 turns of endurance. So to get the full value from the ECM you have to buy extended endurance for the drone frame (unless it's a Type-III). Of course, the enemy may shoot the drone down long before that so the player may decide not to buy extended endurance for the drone because he believes there is too small a likelyhood of it lasting that long anyway.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Saturday, December 27, 2008 - 03:44 pm: Edit

See this New Rules - Something Else for the Probe to Do.

As Loren suggests more **** ECM is not what we need. SFB goes slowly enough as it is.

call me picky, but IMHO a probe is not a ship and doesn't belong here