The Lyrans had (per the last CL) only 4 cruiser SR vessels (2 of each type). All 4 were based in the Far Stars region and were "owned" by the various dukes.

The should have a LOT more SR capability. They have a huge "far stars" frontier wilderness with additional issues with the Hydran lost colonies off map areas.

Besides the Feds have just as many SRs (the 4+ GSCs) PLUS all the CL based light survey vessels... Even the Klinks have 2 and they don't even have their own wilderness frontier! What can be the reasoning for the Lyrans to only have 4?

F&E might actually account for even more Fed survey vessels...

This proposal is for the Lyrans to have ALSO a light SR, based on the CL for the use of Counts and such.

1) The lyrans have a heck of a EW gap, despite R section commentary that they found EW to be a huge part of their combat requirements.

2) an early LTT based on the CL would provide a way to move and use all the pallets the scarce Tugs couldn't.

So, basically the proposal is to build a CL based LTT with the SR stuff instead of the CA stuff. (basically lose the disruptors and some such for more labs and such)

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 09:20 pm: Edit

I like.

By Michael Lui (Michaellui) on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 09:32 pm: Edit

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Quote:

What can be the reasoning for the Lyrans to only have 4?

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By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 10:03 pm: Edit

Mike:

I understand that, but that leaves the Lyrans with a lot of "wilderness frontier" with only a few SRs to look around.

I mean the Feds have what, 6 hexes (???) of unexplored north border?

The Lyrans have something like 20 or more (a lot more IIRC)??? Plus their wilderness runs across the ENTIRE delta sector!

Besides, the Counts would want to get in on the action. And buying a CL based SR would be a way to buy your scout/ ltt while making some $...

Heck, the Emperor might want a few of these just to check up on what the Dukes had found. NOT that he didn't trust them...

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 01:51 pm: Edit

I like the idea, but note that the Lyrans have a very nasty scout pallet that can be put on any tug (presumably a TP) that essentially turns it into a heavy scout or SR (given the cargo on the base hull). The scout pallet is also available early at the Four Powers War.

Further, survey cruisers are CA hulls. If you want a light SR (or "light survey ship" rather than "light survey cruiser")then it would probably be based on a DD hull (specifically the SC) but reduce the number of special sensors from four to two and add cargo.

Finally, you say that there were only 4 SR built (2 of each type) but there were never any NSR built (the design was proposed but not accepted). What types are you referring to and what hulls? I think they must all be SR (old CA) hulls.

By Christopher Scott Evans (Csevans) on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 03:19 pm: Edit

In F&E the Lyrans have 3 CA based SRs. These count as full-tugs and as such taking one off survey duty to bring it on the map for non-survey functions counts against the one/year tug build limit.

I like the idea of a CL based light SR because it gives the Lyrans something else to do with CL hulls other than just converting them to BCs (although that's not a bad thing by any means) and gives them the opportunity for more off-map exploration die-rolls without committing valuable CA hulls to SR conversion to do it. I suppose this would be counted under the LTT build limits.

I like the flexibility this proposal gives to the Lyran fleet.

The scout pallet, btw, can only be used by CA-based tugs, only one is allowed in service, and is a waste in combination with the SR because you lose the indigenous 2 EW points of the SR (SR=2EW, SCP+=4EW, SR+SCP+=4EW)

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 03:31 pm: Edit

Christopher: That may be the case in F&E, but in SFB, putting a scout pallet on an SR is hardly a waste.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 06:17 pm: Edit

Marc,

1) the DD is AWFULLY small to do this. The Lyran DD and CL have "few boxes" for their nominal size class.

2) I looked and a CL based SRL would be a nice intermediate between the FF based scout and the CA based SR.

3) I reviewed the lasst captains log again and the Lyrans are more limited than I first thought insofar as the SR fleet. The darn things are owned by the DUKES! SO anytime there is a bit of nervousness on the border/ internal strife, they probably are recalled from the Far Stars region. So the income production goes right down the tubes.

What this ship would have is 2 special sensors replacing the disruptors.

4 bow P1 replaced with 2 Phaser 2 (for less maintence)

remove a couple fwd and aft hull, add 4 or 6 cargo

Add another probe. Both are now 10 round jobbies.

Add a couple tractors (on the center section)

Add the capability to tug

Worsen tm by one class

Lose a few crew units and BPs.

shields and engines stay the same...

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 06:53 pm: Edit

The Lyran SC is based on the DD, not the FF.

Also, if you give a CL the ability to tug a pallet, you will have set a precedent that people will scream for and its a big shift. I will start flying around CLs with pallets every chance I get.

And in SFB an SR with a scout pallet is devestating - arguably the best scout in SFB (and by far the best in the Four Powers War, as it was intended to be). More than 40 power and six scout channels is better than any heavy scout, including the FED GSC.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 07:03 pm: Edit

Don't get me started on tug scouts. They are basically DN scouts, and despite the fluff that says they were "failed experiments", they are uber-scouts in fleet combat.

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 07:34 pm: Edit

Same could be said of PFT tugs......

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 07:40 pm: Edit

Not really. Most of those have 2 channels if I recall correctly. That means they can't loan 6 EW to 4 units and carry on smartly, the way a scout tug can. ;)

By Christopher Scott Evans (Csevans) on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 08:45 pm: Edit

Marc wrote: Also, if you give a CL the ability to tug a pallet, you will have set a precedent that people will scream for and its a big shift. I will start flying around CLs with pallets every chance I get.

Then limit it to a single K-Pod and disallow L-pallet use, just as the Lyran LTTs are in F&E.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar1) on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 09:47 pm: Edit

One other thing, the Lyran pallets fit rather snuggly between the engines of the CA/Tug, the CL does not have the width that the CA does so Lyran pallets won't fit on the CL unless turned sideways and carried inactive...

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 09:54 pm: Edit

The intent is for this to be a LTT equivalent. And LTTs can't use active pallets.

So it would be using a single pod (active).

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 10:44 pm: Edit

If not a CL, how about converting an LTT?

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 10:59 pm: Edit

TOS,

the issue is YIS.

This is supposed to be pre 4 powers war.

So a YIS of 140?

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 12:21 am: Edit

OK, how about converting an obsolete YTG? Its not like its needs tactical speed 31.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 07:49 pm: Edit

That would be cool, and I'd bet that is where the "early Lyran SR" came from.

But the idea here is a smaller ship than the existing SR with 2 special sensors and adequite power/ hull/ cargo to do the mission.

It kills a couple birds at the same time.
1) Too few SRs and they are half of the tug fleet until the LTT arrives.
2) The Lyran outback is too vast for words.

If you look at the "Fed COmmander" sector map you'll see the Lyran outback goes on and on and on...

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 07:54 pm: Edit

One thing which might be worth noting is that the Delta Sector is still mostly undefined.

There's a lot of room in there between the edge of Gamma and the Void leading to Sargasso, and simply writing the whole thing off as 'nothing but the Old Colonies and the Far Stars Duchy' might limit what kind of future options there could be in that chunk of space.

So, in terms of logistical operations, I'd want the Lyrans (and Hydrans) to have enough to handle the provinces listed in Federation and Empire - but not so much so as to choke off too much of the yet-to-be-explored part of the Sector from... whatever might end up in there.


I do like the idea of a CL-hull SR, by the way. Echoes of the ISC SR, which I like, but with the added tug options.