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The masters don't put crews to sleep. Deth O'kay *happened* to be asleep when his ship was abducted. His fellow pirate makes a comment that Deth should be happy he slept through it, though he doesn't elaborate what "it" is.

This does imply that prepping a ship for transport takes some amount of time. Perhaps "transport nodes" or something similar need to be attached?

What we're talking about is some kind of EMP-like phenomena that incpacitates a ship. It's either easy to repair a ship that's been EMPed or systems are only temporarily down.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, April 24, 2009 - 06:00 pm: Edit

AH, yes, I did forget that aspect...for some reason I was thinking that the ships were "frozen" or prevented from using any systems in their defense... sorry about the mix up.

but if there is a need for "transport nodes" or something similar it just makes the Masters job more complicated... and aparently they are able to "snatch" starships when they want to...

Now if this "God Machine" has a "weapon fucntion" that can incapacitate a single starship with some kind of EMP like phenomena... maybe liken to the WYN systems radiation belt? the one that limits starships for a period of time after transiting the rediation barrier?!?

one advantage would be the rules already exist and have been playtested... just say that the masters device functions as if the targeted star ship had just transited the WYN radiation belt?!?

that way we can establish the god machines abilites (or a portion of it) as a "known factor"...

granted, that isnt enough... but its a start.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, April 24, 2009 - 07:01 pm: Edit

The masters are able to snatch ships when the opportunity arise, not necessarily when they want. The difference is important.

The masters' weapon has to shut a ship down completely, something the Wyn radiation zone doesn't quite do.

However, we can use the radiation zone rules to govern how a ship comes back to life.

The ship has n turns under emergency life support, then begins to power up.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, April 24, 2009 - 10:54 pm: Edit

IIRC there are rules for reactivating dormant systems... It may have been the "first of its kind" scenario (have to look up the number) for the original DN...

lets say the masters "God Machine" does shut down a ship systems and all... the ship would have to take time to reactivate under some kind of sequence... and the Wyn Radiation Zone rules govern how to reactivate the ship... and perhaps the masters have boarding parties in place to stun or capture the ships crews before the ship in question can "go active" and start loading heavy weapons, charging phasers and what all.

IF I were on "the Masters" side, I think I'd want to have enough combat power available that if something "went wrong" I could still destroy the ship before it got away and started shooting up the bases and resources or (gasp!!!) the God Machine.

I think you might have hit on a reasonable idea here!

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 12:10 am: Edit

Just messing around with some data...

Lets say the Masters tm decided to use their "God Machine"tm to snatch a Fed CA...43 crew units, 10 boarding parties, 6 command systems boxes (bridge, AUX CON, EM Bridge).

Just to "plug" some numbers, lets assume for the moment that the GodMachinetm stuns the crew somewhat, and paralyzes the ship for 10 "turns" (some 320 impulses say...) I wonder if that means that the minions of the masters must be able to transport 22+ offensive boarding parties in to the target ship...

That gives the Masters "minions" (boarding parties recruited for doing the drudgery of hand to hand combat), seizing enemy vessels and generally handling the captive prisoner populations that they have seized...

Now, we can assess some specific goals that the masters must have inplace... for instance:

1. they must have sufficient boarding parties to capture the ship before it can self destruct.

2. must have the ability to capture the ship before it can load and fire its weapons (generaly phasers, drones or heavy weapons such as photon torpedos...)

3. capture ship before shuttles can be configured and launched for any missions.

I'll have to review the rules on boarding combat, but I vaguely recall that the rules call for a formula to determine control, IIRC it was along the lines of BP's plus control systems plus a die 6 result for both players to determin the "losses" and (if all of a players defensive systems/BPs reach zero, the ship is lost as a result of the boarding combat.

I guess that means that the Masters minions would have to either outnumber the CA defenders by a significant margin or they must be able to incapacitate the defenders in some way.

It must be a very reliable method... as it appears not one of the 12+ ships taken by masters up to the point where Captains Log#3 was published managed to defeat the Mastes and their assorted minions.

pretty good system, that.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 01:43 am: Edit

Jeff.

If the masters have stunned all the crew and stopped the machinery, ANYONE could capture them.

Besides, IIRC, the crew has something like "agonizer" collars, so any friskyness can be zapped...

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 08:40 am: Edit

Mike,

How long does the stun affect last?

and the agonizer collar would seem to indicate to me that the Masters control is not as perfect as some might like to beleive.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 10:44 am: Edit

Stunning last as long as needed.

I'll have to reread the story, but I have a hazy memory of someone saying something like "so everyone has one?"

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 03:25 pm: Edit

That's after the fact.

One has no idea how the collars are distributed.

OTOH the Orion captain that Deth O'kay talks to seemed to imply that some time was involved in executing an abduction and that he was conscious at the time. I don;t think anybody gets stunned.

Remember Deth was asleep at the time of his ship's abduction. This is important since the ship would have to be powered completely down or someone could simply open his cabin intercom and wake him. He either is a heavy sleeper and did not wake to poundings on his door or something else happened that kept his crew from having the opportunity to wake him.

Now If I had god-tech that allowed me transporter tricks, the easiest way to take a shieldless ship is to simply beam its crew off. Theoretically they could appear on the other side wearing collars they were't wearing when they left.

If you think about it, something like this has to happen since the story portrays people with a passionate hatred of their captivity wearing collars. Some people you can ring with phaser rifles and say "put the collar on or they shoot" and they'll still rush the guys with rifles.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, May 16, 2009 - 11:57 pm: Edit

Even with "Agonizer Collars" fitted to all captured crew members, the story gave an example of the Klingon Executive officer being able to attack Deth O'kay successfully before her agonizer collar could immobilize her... leads me to conclude that there is some one (more than one?!?) observing the bridge area (and perhaps selected locations on the ships) and there is a time delay before they can activate the agonizer Collar...

I wonder if it is a case where the "drones" of the masters are like "trustees" in the old prison movies who work and live with the prison populations (the old robert redford movie "Brubaker" is an example of such a movie)... the "Masters" themselves are isolated and safe from the inmates... but the Trustee/drones are exposed and at risk from the more agressive prisoners...

It also leads to the posibility that whatever media the masters are using to monitor activities on the captured ships might be detectable by the priosoners... given enough time they might be able to rebel against the masters...

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, May 18, 2009 - 02:16 pm: Edit

It's possible.

But once one attempts to jam the collars one has a very narrow span of time to try fine-tune the task before one is taken down...probably for good.

That's agreat risk for someone else to take.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, May 18, 2009 - 02:58 pm: Edit

John,

It also depends somewhat on the nature of the collars. Perhaps they are controlled through some sort of commuications channel from a control station in/near the God Machine.

Heck, for all I know it might be a function of the original god machine!

Think about it.

the same people that controlled the Klingons and other subject races (the old kings?!?) way back when, had some sort of control mechanism to keep the Klingons in hand... perhaps the old Kings used the same collars?!?

Now what if the small group of people that we earlier suggested might have "found" the God Machine also found a collection of these "collars" and the computer that controls them?

That might be another limit on these "Masters".

lets say they found a base with a ***God Machine*** and maybe 5,000 collars.

with 10 ships and (on average) 400 crew members per ship, that means they have 4,000 collars in use... and just 1,000 or so left for any additional "recruit/prisoners"... and every time a ship is destroyed they lose both the crews, and they lose the collars as well.

could put a limit on how many ships they can capture and use at anygiven time.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, May 18, 2009 - 04:40 pm: Edit

Or ...

Maybe you are all *way* overanalyzing it. It would seem to me that the "Masters" are just the Triskelions (or however you are supposed to spell that) amped up a bit to be relevant to a board game that features ship-to-ship combat. Except for the power scale (which, considering the episode in question, is not *that* much higher), it is a direct correlation.

The Masters do not need a "God Machine" because they *are* the "god machines". Just like the Triskelions.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, May 18, 2009 - 07:06 pm: Edit

Mike West:

One mans floor is another mans ceiling...

You might be correct, but the point of the discussion is to (hopefully} provide useful data that might be usable in Star Fleet Battles.

If your POV is correct, there is no purpose in participating in the discussion... if the "Masters" are a type of "paper giant" (ie one that looks big mean and dangerous) but really isnt, then perhaps all of this discussion might result in one or more interesting scenarios playable in both SFB and FC.

Or not.

I'm sure the Steves can be trusted to decide whats worth publishing and what isnt.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 - 04:38 pm: Edit

Mike,

What viewpoint generates the most playable scenarios?

If the Masters are organian-powerful, there's nothing the empires could do to get their people back and nothing the gladiators can do to get away.

Heck, the Organians left. for all we know the masters could BE the Organians.

OTOH, if they only appear omnipotent, we can make some potentially interesting stuff out of that.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 - 06:00 pm: Edit

Sorry, not trying to rain on anyone's parade.

However, even if they are omnipotent (or close enough), that doesn't mean they are omniscient. In that case, it should be more than possible for players to *outsmart* the Masters. (Again, cf. the Triskelions.)

Besides, we already know they are not Organian powerful, since O'Kay did escape. Somehow. So, it is possible.

Even so, I imagine that the "Masters as direct adversary" is probably more appropriate for Prime Directive, than for SFB or FC.

But, again, pardon me. Sorry for being a little black rain cloud ...

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 - 11:34 pm: Edit

Mike West:

I imagine with the use of special scenario rules, a lot could be accomplished in making a Masters scenario "playable"... the challenge is to first define the problem, then devise solutions for those problems.

So far, we are still trying to define the issues!

So far, I think the combination of a ***God Machine*** that a few (as in limited to 30+ individuals, designated as "The Masterstm") with a specified list of "hard ware" that allows the masters to accomplish their "transporter parlor tricks", (the so called "transporter stunner" and the handy agonizer collars to instill obedience).

We still havent figured out how the stunning thing works, but we are on a line of investigation to "reverse engineer" how such a thing might function.

Somebody (possibly John Trauger?!?) suggestetd that the Masters have "talent scout/recruiters" that they have in various places in the alpha quadrant scoping out likely recruits/future prisoner/gladiators... so there are some mundane explanations for how the masters handle their various tricks.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, June 01, 2009 - 12:13 am: Edit

Lets turn this around, and see how it fits together...

lets say (as was postulated earlier) a skiff load of certified Orion Pirate Hating sentient beings some how (transporter accident, vortex act of Gods ect.ect.ect...) arrives at the center of the Galaxy, discovers the "God Machine", and fairly quickly, learns how to use said device.

they set up a slave owning kingdom, using an "under class" of drones/trustees/thralls etc to guard the prisoners/gladiators for their games.

20+ percent of the gladiators are Orion Pirates (could be an accident, but given the way captains log #3 story and the various published scenarios that involve the Masters, it is unlikely to be accidental that 1 in every 5 gladiators recruited by the masters is an Orion Pirate.)

the "Masters" seem to have unlimited access to the whiole of the Alpha Quadrant, and some form of regular access to the teleportion device for both ships and personnel.

the Masters seem to want for nothing, and are using the powers of the "God Machine" for entertainment rather than for ammassing wealth, power or resources.

While the major races might consider this a nuisance, the 20% figure indicates that the Masters could (given the number of hulls the Masters could capture over the course of a year or two) do serious damage to the Orion Pirates Fleet. Heck, 12 ships a year could just about kill off an entire cartel... the Masters could start building their own Orion Fleet, and within 5 years or so, could be a formidable naval power in their own right....

Something to think about, atleast!

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, June 01, 2009 - 12:35 pm: Edit

Maybe the hyped engines just make them easier to grab??

As for grabbing only Alpha ships, could that have been just chance? I mean besides the fact that the Omegans and such were not yet invented...

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, June 01, 2009 - 01:30 pm: Edit

Or if (as was supposed earlier in the thread) the "Masters" are a group of disgruntled Orion haters from the ALpha Quadrant, they are concentrating on those races that they are familiar with.

On the same vein as your comment about the Hyped engines... may be the answer is just as simple as "the God Machine" uses part of the intended victims energy power for the process... and Orion pirate ships are simply the cheapest buy around (atleast in terms of energy cost...)

Its also possible that the choices are limited to the proximity of said ships to the center of the galaxy where the Masters are located... that might explain the Kzinti, Fed, Wyn and Gorns being taken by the masters... and given the General war was going on at the time, both the Lyrans and Klingons would have been operating ships in Kzinti Territory.

I suppose its possible that the Hydrans ship might have been one of the ships assigned to the Expedition fleet... that just leaves the Tholian PC... and if it was one of those "homeless" ships trying to find refuge in the same Galaxy as the Holdfast... (just a thought).

dunno. could be other explainations as well.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 10:21 am: Edit

Ok, its been a while, but I finally found my copy of SFB Campaign Designers Handbook,(ADB stock #5715, written by Bruce Graw, ISBN#0-922335-74-5. copy write, 1996.

Page 24 discusses Warp Gates, and Warp Gate technology, and includes the following:

Quote: "Warp gates might be used by the Masters."

also, in the Description section it includes:

(R1.C4) WARP GATE: This is a unit which can operate as a mobile ship arrival point (as described above). Unlike construction docks, it is very well armed, as it is designed to operate in frontline areas and expects to see combat. Since it has warp drive, it is capable of strategic movement, although this should be limited to very slow speeds (no more than half of that allowed for normal ships in a campaign.)

The Warp gate is a conjectural unit; nothing like it exists in Star Fleet Battles. It is provided for campaign use only. It is assumed that the Warp Gate provided for players is identical regardless of race, as the Masters (or who ever makes the Warp Gate available) uses a single generic design (except for Klingon warp gates, which have secuirity stations).


Other data from Master Ship Chart: Spare shuttles, 0. Year in Service CJ; Docking points NA (can not dock internally to anything; explosin strength 17; command rating 3."}

One other bit of information, ships travelng through a warp gate require 3 star fleet battles turns to do so, if the Warp gate at either end is destroyed while ships are transiting through the warp gate, the ships are destroyed.

Also, ships that travel through a warp gate are subject to the same effects as if they had passed through the Wyn Radiation zone (see rule P7.0) and the ships are at weapons status 0.

This would match with some of our earlier conjecture about the Masters technology... except that the Masters God Machine must be an advanced model as there doesnt appear to be a requirement for a second warp gate at both ends of the conduit... just the masters machine at the core of the Galaxy... and a need that the targeted starship must be at speed 0 or sublight (speed 1)...

Perhaps the act of "taking" a starship reduces the ships weapon status to 0 during the passage...

I guess, In my mind, I'm looking at the Masters God Machine as a kind of advanced Warp Gate with "special features" not available on the "vanilla" warp gate in rule (R1.C4).

Even that Warp gate (the Vanilla style) has 12 phaser 1s and 12 phaser 3s, 60 crew units and copious tractors... any cruiser that it snags can be pummeled into a crippled hulk using the phasers, and (assuming that they stop just short of destroying the last excess damage box on the target cruisers SSD), leaving very few command boxes and a relatively few boarding parties ready for resistance...

Not sure how the Masters got into business (perhaps the 30 or 40 sentient beings/scavengers we talked about earlier in the archives), but with a functioning advanced Warp Gate, they could literally take what they want and deal witht he survivors at their leisure.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, August 07, 2009 - 03:17 pm: Edit

Found another Scenario that has implications for the Masters topic:

Scenario (SL192.0) THE ORB

Author was Marc Michalik, Colorado. Year (???).

The description reads as follows:

" Have you ever wondered how the Masters (SL50.0) abduct whole star ships from Space? Picture this, while on patrol along an enemy border the automatic sensors of your cruiser put the ship on red alert. You turn to your first officer to inquire the nature of the problem and are informed, to your astonishment that your ship has been surrounded by an impenetrable barrier in all directions. To make matters worse, there is a glowing orb off your port bow transmitting the following message: "welcome organic creatures. Your ship and crew have been selected for competition in the games... PREPARE TO DEFEND YORSELVES!!!" The captain, crew and ship will never be seen again, they are now playthings for the enjoyment of the masters."