Archive through March 25, 2009
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
New Rules:
(E) Weapons:
Dash Drones:
Archive through March 25, 2009
The Kzinti noted that often drones were used in very short ranged combat and much of their endurance was wasted.
So they created Dash Drones (I don't care about the name).
These have a range of 8! (at any speed, just like a dogfight drone)
This was achieved by (basically) scabbing together a pair of dogfight drone engines to a normal warhead.
The advantage is that by dispensing with most of the fuel, the drone could have a full sized warhead with a half space of internal armor. this was prized mostly to 1) soak up ESGs and 2) make kills with phasers less easy.
BALANCE NOTE: perhaps these drones have a unique signature and as such are always indentified as short range?
The usual array of optional alternate payloads...
Available like armored drones (ie not the most rare, but not freely available).
Wait a second... what exactly are your proposing...I'm just not following your thought process on this one.
Is it still a single space drone? I assume that since a dog fight (type VI) drone is a 1/2 space drone, two of them add up to a single space...the warhead being too small to count?!?
if you are suggesting a "two stage" drone, does it still fit in the type VI drone rails?
I thought dog fight drones had range 12?!? (see rule FD2.55)
Now if you simply retained a type VI drone drive section and mounted a full sized warhead on it, you still wouldnt gain much, because of the limits on how many drones could be launched by a rack...unless you are claiming that more of these dash drones could be launched in a single 32 impules game turn by existing types of drone racks?
I guess what I'm requesting is a little more clarification of what these drones are and how they differ from the existing drones.
Single space, 1 payload sapce, built in 1/2 space of armor.
And OK, the range is whatever...
The point is they trade range for the free internal space of armor.
Basically drone users gets +2 hit points on selected drones for free provided they're saved for a knife fight. Seems a good deal for the drone boys, less good for anyone already struggling to cope with drones. Is there a two-space version?
Dunno.
And there has to be a limitation. the fact you can ID them without labs is one. Perhaps they can only carry standard warheads? Range 8 max?
perhaps they cost some CO points?
Might make sense to keep the last drone in the rack one of these kinds of drones for very close range knife fighting...
If they do cost CO points, I'd have to guess it will be more than +2... the free armor option is worth some just by itself... and keeping the normal sized warhead is a nice feature.
Would these "Dash Drones" (or whatever you decide to call them) be able to be fitted to scatter packs?
Is this something a ships deck crew could fashion out of the spare parts bins? (grin) I mean, take two type VI drone engines, 1 Type 1 armor module, the avionics package from a type I and a type 1 warhead...unless you want to keep the seeking capacity of the type VI... really nice feature if your hunting cloaked ships (that Warp seeker is worth a lot more, in that case!)
Dunno. I think the limitations have to be balanced vs the advantages.
Major disadantage in that you KNOW this one can be juked/ run out fairly easily. Especially before fast drones.
And NO, I wouldn't think you could kit bash one of these things.
Nor the warp seeker.
Considering that the usual lifespan of a slow drone is a single impulse, I doubt that the range reduction is much of a drawback.
I'm *all about* Dash Drones.
Then again, I'm a Kzinti player (points to nick). >8)
So just make them have an appropriate YIS.
Do you plan on making this things gneral availability, limited or restricted?
makes a difference as different races have different availability percentages, let alone the effect of carriers drone stockpiles.
also, what about limits on fighters? generally, fighters are limited to a 15 hex range on energy weapons fire (phasers disrupters photons IIRC).
a 8 hex restriction is well within the combat range of the existing fighters in the game, so wouldnt be a major problem for most fighter operations.
Infact, the armor provision would make fighter squadrons stronger in absolute BPV terms, not weaker IMO.
Dunno
8 hexes is most certainly not within the combat range of fighters. Any sensible drone fighter will launch from R16+ so he doesn't get shot at.
Jim, does that include dogfighting?
Off hand, I'd have to conclude you are in error in that case at least. 
What about fighters that have multiple drone rails? such as the F-14D?
With the existing limits on how many drones a fighter can launch in a given 32 impulse game turn(typically 1xtype I drone and 1xtype VI drone, provided both are targeted on the same thing), it is not only possible to still have drones on the rails at closer ranges, it is exceedingly likely if the enemy is intent on closing on your fighters with the intent of destroying them.
What about the case where fighters have been targeted outside of range 15 by enemy units equipped with seeking weapons such as drones? these "dash drones" as proposed by Michael are certainly capable of the Anti drone vs drone missions... so on atleast a third case, your post is not accurate...
8 hexes is most certainly within combat range of fighters... it just depends on the tactical situation and has many more variables than you have considered.
I think the problem is the supposition that the "fuel" for the drone takes up volume. Which it may. Or may not.
In TOS, dilithium crystals seemed to power the ships and were quite small in size.
Extended Range for drones does not make them larger, but doubles the range.
While Type-IIIXX drones are twice the size, it also adds a warp navigation unit with sophisticated waypoint and target acquisition capability which could be responsible for the size increase.
I'd like toknow how you can tell the difference between this and a type-I or type-VI (without the lab) as one can't tell the diff between a type I and type VI or type I-D and type II (until one does something the other can't)...
Stewart,
Just a guess, but I think Michael was making the ability to differentiate dash drones from all other drones for game balance issues... not to match the existing rules set.
Honestly, I think you have raised a very good point in that there shouldn't be any way to tell the difference short of using a lab.
Dash capability would have to be a frame moification that never became general use, not unlike a type III drone frame. That limits the number you can get right there.
If they were only explosive, they would be like type VI drones. Package deals that you can't "mod" the way you want.
The reason you can tell these apart is the "paired" drives. Just a balance thing.
And again, I'm not wedded to the idea.
So, If I'm looking at this right... you have essentially designed a single space drone with a 1 turn endurance?
so during the slow drone years, it has a max range of 8 hexes for a total 32 impulse game turn, and during the fast drone years it has a maximum range of 8 hexes and only a 1/4 turn endurance?
Jeff,
1) A single space drone with 8 hexes (or less) of movement/ endurance.
2) In the slow years? Perhaps it has a later YIS. Or maybe it has only four or something range.
The idea is a drone with some "free internal armor" in return for much more limited range. A knifefighting specialty drone...
But the issue is that drones are bought for the drone racks on a ship, then upgrades, and speeds are determined... so a standard type 1 drone in a rack might cost +1 BPV for speed 32 fast drones, for example.
If we were to consider a dash drone as filling a single space on a drone rack, and then pay for the speed upgrade... you are effectively paying for speed 32 drone with a quarter turn endurance... I don't see what your're gaining for the BPV's... other than the value of the armor.
compare your dash drone to a typical type 1.
it has a 3 turn endurance, and can be upgraded to fast speed, and you can even put armor on it, if you want.
your suggesting a "cheaper" drone in effect that has less endurance and a full warhead... but I'n not seeing where any real cost difference exists between either type.
the Type 1 would seem to be superior in a number of key areas, not least of which is its endurance.
Now if the dash drones were cheaper than a type 1, perhaps I could see having some on board the ship for knife fighting range combat... but certainly not for most drone missions.
If the paired drives interfere with the dash drone being put on a scatter pack, theres another nail in the argument for not having them.
I'm not opposed, just saying I think this proposal needs a little more tweeking.
I would absolutely swap out some drones for dash versions if losing stock type-I was the only concern. The range could be 2 and I'd still do it. Lots of duels get decided by anchors.
Jeff, The value of the armor, COMBINED with a full sized warhead and full speed.
Like I said, this is a very specialized drone and I see it as having 2 big things:
1) It takes out a bit more ESG power
2) It make an "autokill" with phasers a lot less likely.
And finally, it makes "what the heck is in that guys drone racks" a lot more pertinent. If I only have one drone space left to launch, right now it is:
1) A vanilla warhead
2) an armored drone, so the warhead is small
3) an external armored drone, so it is slower
4) some specialty type that is less likely to damage a ship (like a MW/ ECM/ Starfish) enough to be a big deal...
This thing is supposed to add to list of options (and if you think about it, there SHOULD be a huge variety of drone options out there) you have to consider.
Think about WW2 when tech levels were relatively flat among the combatants in Europe. The Germans got caught up in the "so fine we can't build many" arguement with their armor and actually had the FEWEST tanks of the major combat powers despite the fact that they were argueably the best users of the tank, the Brits never really seemed to design a tank that was suitable to maneuver warfare *(they seemed wedded to their Matilda "infantry support tank" early on and then built a tank that was worse than the Sherman), the Russins got it right with the T34 and then blew much of their advantage with mass maneuver/ forbidden initiative/ lack of comms/ sheer stupidity (Note that there were sound POLITICAL reasons for much of their military idiocy if you buy into the commie thought processes), and the US went to the mass produced Sherman route. Each is a means to the end.
I personally think if the Germans had invented the T34, absolutely standardized construction and mass produced "good enough" tanks (the germans built so many different tanks/ assault guns that it seems any repair system must depair), added radios and kept their own doctorine, the results would have been grim for the Free (and commie) world...
Andrew, I think you should consider them sometimes. But if they are limited or restricted, are you willing to trade out one of your few ECM drones? the MW head you bought to blunt Scatter Packs? The point is more to add to uncertainty and tactical options.
NOTE also that if your opponent is defending vs drones with his ADDs (late war Klink ships and G racked Feds) this thing will not be a great use. he will have already planned to be able to maneuver so as to extend his "engagement basket" at range 2 or 3.
Michael,
we're talking about a couple of different concepts here.
If one of these dash drones is twice as good as a fast type 1 drone, then in BPV terms it should cost as much for a single dash drone as two Type IFs would cost.
My point is that there are certain advantages to having type 1 drones that a dash drone simply isnt able to compete against. (particularly if they can't be used in scatter packs)
Then I also see the advantage that you and Andrew have talked about... I'm simply trying to point out that the Dash drones represent a qualitative difference.
boiled down, they may simply be too good a deal.