Archive through May 20, 2009
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Galactic Conquest:
Campaign Q&A (General):
Archive through May 20, 2009
unless your the Taskar in U2
So the Gorn and Feds could trade cva and be legal
hummmm hey chris have I got a deal for you, Oh Howard
I assume DN means any DN, not base hull of this DN? Remember that some of us have 2-4 series of DNs (Vulture, Condor, modular types). Being able to stack several DNs into a squadron because they are different base hulls seems to be other than what was intended.
I would note two things- the wording of the rule should be cleaned up a bit- SCS/CVA hulls are generally varients of a DN base hull. The vast majority of the empires thus can not stack a DN and CVA/SCS (the movement cost 1.5/1.25 flavors anyway). Either list these separately (i.e. "exception: Fed CV(O)"), or on the empire's special rules sheet. This will clear things up.
The Fed CVA in the current rulebook is a MC 1.5 varient of the DN hull. It is not the MC 1 version with 36 warp (aka the CV(O)) that it once was.
The Taskars get the exemption under their own special rules, presumably.
There are some "creative" ways one can twist ship configurations around using the UFP/Gorn/Roms if the F(CVA) can stack with DNs- consider using F(CVA), R(SpM), 2x(your native DWE). An extra DN hull in the squadron, and the single highest BPV'd escort in the game (I think, certainly near the top). This is against the intent of the rules though.
In an old thread about megaFTRS the example is wrong.
The U3 rulebook still has the correct rule.
Here is the corrected example for the thread
"A FTr of 10BPV gets mega refit. It now has a BPV/EPV of 15/7.5. Converting it to GC it has a 2.2/1.1, then add the mods, 2.5/.94."
While reading through this thread, and trying to get caught up after being gone for 2 years, I noticed Ryan Opel's question concerning (C19.40) on 1/13/08.
I just wanted to point out that, as far as I understand the rules, the ONLY thing you gain by having an "Elite X Squadron" is that it qualifies a ship in that SQ to be able to use the Fleet Formation III tech (presumably whether you have developed that tech or not).
I would say that if you HAVE developed that tech, or if that tech does not interest you, then the concept of a Elite X Squadron is meaningless and you can mix and match the X ship types as you see fit.
Gary
Archives completed to here.
Have questions regarding map set-up and some rules...
Bought the Ver. 4C rulebook; looking to start a local game and been reviewing some of the maps, but I can't really seem to find any logic in starting planets and such. Any suggestions as to starting planets/area? Also, not planning on having a large group to start, so should I go with the standard sized map I'm seeing, or maybe cut it in half lengthwise?
In regards to 'fast' ships, am I correct in calculating that most CW, DW, and FF would qualify for the Speed-4 HPM?
Calculating AF/DF:
--Heavy BB - the only one in this category is the Klingon B11, or would others qualify?
--CA/CL/NCA - I assume all of these non-X-classes do not have any modifiers?
--Is an X-NCA(NAX) a regular or 'light" SC3X?
--SC4 Tugs - to they get the tug +5 DF?
--Transporter Bombs/Romulan NSM - Didn't come across anything about them. Any rules?
--Drone Upgrades - Which upgrades would be allowable: Speed, ATG, Extended Range, Sword/Spearfish? Any limits on upgrades?
--Plasma Sabot refits/Drone Upgrades: Would these be a one time cost, or a 'magic' refit like Mech Links?
--Fractional AF/DF - Round up, round down, keep to 2 decimal places?
Thanks,
--Christopher
(Speaking as a player, not a GM)- There is little logic to starting planet location, beyond homeworlds typically being near the center of one's starting space and the obvious requirements for Gorn/Romulan HWs being adjacent. Depending upon GMs idea for the game start, empire sizes may be similar or somewhat in line with "historical norms". Political rules for the UFP may also influence their starting stats (since they can't acquire space by force, are stuck on a peacetime economy until attacked, they need some help). Strategic limits also cause quirks- some empires don't have speed 2 or speed 3 ships, or scouts, until well after nearly everyone else does. Starting a game before Y160 or Y150 will force some sort of change.
Map size- depends upon a number of factors. How many players do you want to support? Do you want to have 10-15 empires with 200+ ships (20-30 squadrons) in the mid game? The map wraps on the E/W ends, so it isn't as big as it seems in that respect. This reduces one's ability to be in a corner.
Many CW/DW/FF hulls are affected by HPM. While the CW/DW hulls don't take the AF hit from being 'fast', the -2 to their DF makes them fragile (DWs often have DF values about the same as a fully refitted FF or DD...).
B11 is the only published HBB. R&D and local campaign rules may add others. In the editing process we tried to move "obvious" stuff like this into the generic rules from the empire specific ones (SC1 used by the Selts vs. SC2 ships for everone else being a similar corner case).
CA/CL/NCA don't get AF/DF mods.
NCAs, being replacements for CAs (and in GC being built over 2 turns in the same yards instead of in CW ones in a single turn) are regular SC3X hulls. CWX and CLX would be light.
SC4 tugs- never came up (nor SC2 ones for that matter). We should probably define that better. So far as I know (again, I've never GMd), players don't waste conversion slots on SC4 tugs. [GC has severe limits with conversions, to the point that CC/CWL/DWL/DDL/FFL hulls are rare.]
T-bombs/NSM- subsumed into background (as would be most commanders options and special boarding party types).
Drones- seems to be speed only. Seems to be a "magic" upgrade for speed (cost may also be empire specific).
Sabot- currently under GM/player debate if they should be factored in. My analysis as the Romulan player is that it boosts AF/DF values by 0 to 2 points (might be 3 in one or two cases). A smattering of such refits (175, +, AWR, Sabot, UIM, others) have similar affects. If you allow optional refits, allow them all, and force them on all new builds (Z SF vs. SF+ have same AF, so the refit makes no "sense" in terms of AF/DF while saving 1-2EPs that may be better used some place where they DO make a difference).
AF/DF are round nearest. The example AF/DF values in the appendix are. Unless you automate the calculations, you'll drive yourself nuts with just the rounded values, much less the exact ones. [Think fighter squadrons and PF squadrons.]
There are a couple ways to alot worlds.
you can preset the board (ie you predetermine the numbers and location.
Or you random roll for each hex you survey.
in my former campaign the rolls were as such.
SC Whirwind move to hex E45 via E42-43-44
Hex E42 1/10 chance of planet in hex 15/100 planet in sensor range rolled 14 roll 1/6 to determine hex. hex 6/f maj/min 50% major. Defenses 1d100x 1d8=bpv local ship defences
bases 1d6=number of bases 1d6 1=sb 2=setor base, 3=bats, 4=bs 5=sy3 6=sy4
minors use 1d4
note all min defenses as per rule box
hope this helps
Thanks for the reply. Good to hear about Commanders items/drones - saw some DB ships double in firepower.
Got more questions now...
I'm a little confused on 'conversions'. What I'm picking up is that you have to build a basic hull, like a DD, and then convert it to a variant, like a DDE, DDT, DDL, SC, etc? Or am I wrong, and you can build any hull if it is available, and only have to convert it if you want to change it's function?
Damage allocation by owning player - are there any rules on how damage must be allocated? Things like attrition units first, then ships? What about how much damage must be applied to a ship - can I apply 24 damage across 8 ships evenly, or do I have to apply the damage in whole portions, damaging (reducing AF by 50%) or crippling a ship first before allocating dama ge to another ship?
And here's one that I know ought to cause more than a few groans - Partial X-Refits! Treat as a conversion/refit requiring appropriate X-Shipyard? Treat as completely new build? Forget I ever had this crazy thought?
Poor crew units - Does each empire have a base PCU percentage? Otherwise, based on all the xd6x.1% I see, it could take forever to create enough PCUs to fill a ship. If there is a base PCU, is it based on race, amount of colonies, randomly determined?
Ground bases - just want to clarify - Base AF/DF is calculated normally (BPV x .143). DF is then multiplied by 4 (both offensive and non-offensive), and AF for non-offensive bases is reduced by 75%. They are then combined into groups of up to 6.
--Why combine into large groups - I'm assuming it's to preserve AF during damage.
Gaining major colonies - confused on how this works. ie. having 4 major colonies produces 77 EP per turn, 5 = 115 EP, 6 = 168, 7 = 243, 8 = 343, 9 = 443, etc. Or is it different. Also, homeworlds - are they part of the major colonies calculation above, or do they produce a fixed amount above and beyond the bonus in B11.20?
Thanks again,
--Christopher
Argh! Forgot to ask about Q-ships. Do they have a set AF/DF like the other R1 units, or are they calculated seperately like racial ships?
--Christopher
ok converts
Deltion have to SC4-2SC3 conversons per turn
build 2 SC (the two SC4 convert)
build CC (1SC3 Conv)
SB 4 D34A CA/CC (2nd convert)
base postion the converts are the number of veriants you can build each turn
You build you basic hull (FF/DW/CW/DD etc.), and then convert it after the fact, or build it as a varient. Either way you use a conversion slot. There are some quirks- modular hulls, DNLs, Romulan CCs. Do realize that most empires seem to get 2xSC4, 2xSC3, 1xSC2, 1xDW, and 1xCW conversions per turn. This doesn't grow (other than by ICW techs) or shrink by empire size. This makes smaller empires (even if they get half the conversion slots) more conversion happy than the really large ones.
Damage if not directed (or similar attacker decided) is however the defender wants it to be (but the GM seems to do this). Typically it tends to fall on poor crewed units first, and then up to but not to the point of a unit being crippled.
XP tech is not presently in the game. While not really a commanders option type thing, the level of detail is too great for it to scale well.
Poor crew typically starts at 0%. While it intially takes a while for the PCUs to pile up, you SHALL end up with 5% or more per turn and thus shall be putting it on 1-2 ships per turn. Look at the CU requirements for a SB, TCB, etc. Trust me. In the completed U2 I had turns where I was putting poor crew on everything CW and smaller.
Ground bases- you'll have to get a Mike or John to answer that.
If there isn't a specified AF/DF value for a unit, use the formulas. Typically the formula breaks down for the unarmed/lightly armed civilian units which is why they are spelled out. Some of the R1 unit's numbers are a bit off I suspect- like SFB they are "good enough". I revamped them in this version of the rulebook, so any errors are probably my fault. Generally speaking, the idea was to ensure that R1 units are not too good for their BPV vs. military hulls (which is why the LAC/SAC type ships are weaker than they should be).
Assuming peace time and no other adjustments:
1 major == 13; 2 majors == 31 (13+18); 3 == 52; 4==77; etc. A homeworld is both a major system, and a major with a Core Economy. A 4 system empire at peacetime, no mods, and a 25EPV Core economy HW (not too uncommon), would get 102EPV per turn.
Wearing my player hat for this comment- be very careful with the number of systems each empire can reasonably get in the game. The engine scales down to 2-3 systems acceptably, seems to hit a local maximum at 7 (various small empire bonuses), hurts 8 & 9 system empires badly, scales up from there to around 20-25 systems well; and IMO falls apart (too much cash, too few conversions; too many ships for the GM to manage) around 40 systems. The smaller empires have problems with income and major headaches with crew quality over time. The bonuses at 30, 40 and 50 systems make it increasingly hard to have a measurable poor crew percentage even with the negative modifiers for full war, accelerated war, and CAN-5 stacked against you.
Thanks for the answers... But I have more questions. 
Q-Ships - a) I'm assuming that their abbreviation is LQ/SQ; b) can't find AF/DF for them, help?
Rulebook E5 & E6 - If I read this right - I roll on E5 table first, pull any units rolled out of the SR pool, then make rolls for E6?
Combat Questions:
A10.25 - Doesn't quite make sense. If I'm making some suicidal, no-quarter-asked-none-given charge, and my 9 ship squadron is reduced to 1 crippled ship, I still get the bonus on my (obviously) last round?
A10.40h - Confused on how this works, as I get mixed signals from D6.25 - 6.28. Could I get an example?
Reserves - when --must-- ships in reserve be moved to non-reserve status?
Multiple Squadrons - If I read this right, as long as I can AM squadrons together, they can form one large force?
Foreign Hulls:
a) Outside of 'Kestrels', what constitutes a foreign hull? Would these include WYN purchased/captured hulls; Lyran purchased pods?
b) Why the 25% penalty? Doesn't make the Kestrels as appealing.
PUR/NFP Hulls - Neo-Tholians, Kestrels, etc. Would a safe assumption for production status be to use a similar rating from a similar ship?
Tug-Pod combinations - When pairing up non-standard combinations, should I add the BPV together, then convert to AF/DF, or convert first then add? (Relates to Foreign hulls above)
Cargo boxes on non-cargo ships: Do these count towards keeping a ship "in supply", or must these cargo boxes come from a dedicated transport vessel?
Andromedan Forces - How big of a squadron can they field? The SFB limit of 2 motherships and carried satellites? Any special rules? Haven't decided if I want to allow as a player race, or my own (GM run) raiders.
The 'ambiguous numbers' - stuff like PCU percentages, initial conversion rates, spy results, etc - stuff not detailed in the rulebook. Use my own judgement on these, or are there some factors to adhere to?
Thanks for all the answers. I'm hoping to get the test campaign started soon (almost done creating ship lists - keep faining when I look at the Hydrans). The goal is to have all the forseeable questions answered when I start.
Ground bases are grouped in 6 to represent the tougher nature of bases on a system.
Q ships (LQ/SQ)- If there isn't a specified AF/DF value for a unit, use the formulas.
E5/6- yes.
A10.25- if you start a battle with 5+ ships, you keep the bonus no matter how few ships you have in a given round. Once the battle stops, the bonus goes away. [It isn't obviously, since bases, ground bases, and attrition units may still be present...] This is just the way the game engine is.
A10.40h/D6.2x- Escorts and CAN are two separate things. A force with a CV of some sort (say a CVA), a CWE, 2xCW, 2xDWE (or FFE), and a FF would use 6 CAN slots (for the various hulls other than the CVA flagship). With EFO, the count drops to 5 (3 for the CW hulls, 2 for the 3 SC4/DW hulls). With EFO and REFO, the count drops to 4 (2 + 2). With the hypothetical CVA(ftrs, CWE, 2xDWE), 2xCW, FF force and CEFO-III (no EFO/REFO), the CAN total would be 3 (2xCW, FF) and the escorts would not cost any CAN slots. They would provide DF to the CV per A10.40h; they would not provide any AF. With EFO, REFO, CEFO-III the force would use 2 (two) CAN slots (the 2xCW and 1xFF would stack as per D6.26).
D6.28- generally speaking the CV gets protected from damage, in a manner similar to F&E.
Foreign hulls- WYN, TK5, OK6, Kestrels, possibly Klingon pods on Lyran tugs. Some GC players in the past have tried to fix holes in their fleet by maxing and matching ships. Consider a Fed CVA with Romulan escorts (SPM in particular) as a prime example. Maulers, PFT, modular hulls and their increased conversion rates would be another (and a way to sidestep tech trading limits). This rule removes the mix and match, er, temptation. Yes, it trashes the value of the Kestrels (A fast, low AF/DF Kestrel or a slow, about the same AF/DF native hull). A Romulan player would hopefully get an override to the rule, or those D6/KR hulls are going to rapidly end up as KREs and the other hulls will be scrapped.
PUR/NFP- not sure what the question is. The Neo-Tholians probably are limited to what the GM provides in the 312th (command modules excepted). The Romulans and Tholians just have this noose (the Feds have political rules, Lyrans have clan rivalry rules, etc.).
Pod/Tug- yes. You should add BPV/EPV, the generate AF/DF, then determine mods for crew, nationality, etc.
Caro is cargo I assume (never has come up personally). Note that if your cargo has supplies it doesn't have spare drones, fighters, etc.
Andro rules are, I believe SFB limits. Other details are known only to the GM, spies, and Andros. They have only been seen in any numbers in two campaigns that I know of (U3 using V3 rules, and John's General War game from the 80s and 90s with an even older set of rules). If you allow them, keep an eye out as they could unbalance the game (not that other things won't do that either).
AM- within the limits of how many MV you use and the resulting limit on how many squadrons that allows to AM, yes. Do check the stacking limit (Bog Down Rule' D6.90).
Reserves- will defer to someone who is a combat expert.
Except for a ISC Pacification or Andro invasion, I suggest that you start with an initial PCU % of 0. Trust me, it will go up quickly. A reasonable number of poor crewed ships at start is fine. Conversion rates- ignoring the modular hulls- typically you get 1xSC2, 1xCW, 1xDW, 2xSC3, 2xSC4, 2xMM or thereabouts (wartime; half that round up peacetime). Going higher than that will
make some choices too easy (CV groups and SC/MS support). Less than that may result in few variant hulls at all. Modular conversions need some sort of limits too, but keep in mind what the Romulans start with before being too restrictive (U1's cost, at effectively cost +20EPV was, IMAO, too high although I could go toe to toe with the ISC on AF/DF values per squadron if I was willing to pay the EPV cost and never run out of SC/MS/ES/maulers no matter how many the ISC directed upon; U3, U4, and U5 may be too low [insufficient data]). Spies- probably (I'm not an expert). Legendary Officers and OCU- if you force poor crew units at start, give the players a few of these too. Outside of training crews and LO Schools, they don't show up very often on their own IMO. Use judgment, realize that the first game may derail (just like a RPG campaign...). Player styles, GM goals, etc. will influence things.
Omega Ship Questions:
Ship Classes - most classes are fairly obvious. For the ones that aren't, should I use the classes provided in the SFB Warlord Omega Ship Listing?
Ryn/Qixa BPVs - As these have different BPVs for inside/outside their respective terrains, how should I treat them?
Ryn strategic movement speeds - how should I treat them, as they have no warp engines and the rules indicate that they don't have a strategic movement effect?
PF variants (Alpha and Omega):
Given that the bulk of all PF variants are identical for combat purposes (save for Fi-Cons), is there any point in tracking the variants?
C17.xx R&D:
C17.30 - I'm confused; does this allow a race to develop tech that they don't historically have (per the example, the Deltans developing cloaking technology).
General queries:
Can one race (ie. Feds) produce hulls with foreign tech (Ph-G, Plasma F) without having obtained the tech from an appropriate race?
Purchased fighters/pods - are these subject to the "foreign hull" rule? If so, for pods, how would this work - I'm assuming that the BPV should be decreased by 25% before adding it to the tug (math works out the same as reducing AF/DF).
1d6 probabilities - B2.30 as an example. Does a 4d6 mean roll 4 d6s, hope for a 1, or is it more along the lines of roll 1 d6, success on a 1 to 4? (assumed from the example in C17.65 - 6d6 = automatic success).
Squadrons/Flotillas:
Should fighters/bombers and PFs be grouped together into squadrons/flotillas, then have their AF/DF calculated? (I saw reference to this in a Captain's Log, can't remember which one.) If so...
--How many fighters/bombers to a squadron?
--What about casual PF tenders (BCH Hulls & Lyrans)? Group them into 1 semi-flotilla per vessel?
--Hydrans (casual carriers) and fighters? Group them into one unit per ship?
--Hydrans and Hellbore fighters - should they be their own mini-squadron, or grouped in with the rest of the fighters?
Campaign prep ponders on - have some players, explaining the SFB Universe (as opposed to the Star Trek universe they're familiar with), lending books so that they can get familiar with races, and all that other fun stuff associated with breaking in new players.
Thanks for all the help, again.
--Christopher
PF SC need to be counted simplely because of the SS
Omega: One of the GMs will have to answer this, as it falls under empire specific rules.
PF variants are of interest in the case of special sensors (as Rob noted), ground assault, fighters (Fi-CONs), and similar corner cases. Other than BPV/EPV values, the differences between combat variants is not worth tracking.
C17.xx- It depends. Some tech is unique to one or two empires (cloaks, maulers, SFG, etc.) and is only able to be acquired (if at all) from the historical empire that developed the tech. The Feds getting PF tech would be an example where one could get a tech via R&D or tech transfer. Note the use of the word developed- Maulers for example are Romulan/Canadien. Klingons and Lyrans have to buy the tech from the Romulans.
Plasma F for the Feds is a non-issue, frankly. The combat effectiveness of the DDL/FFL/BCF vs the DD/FFG/BCG is negligible, plus in the DD/FF case you burn a valuable conversion slot. Ph-Gs- I don't know how the GMs have played it historically. It would not be unreasonable to force the Feds to R&D ship and fighter based Ph-G tech (or acquire it from the Hydrans). This really falls under the empire specific rules again that only the GMs can answer.
Purchased anything (other than generic freighters) gets the penalty. For the pods you might make a partial exception that the Lyrans/LDR can build the Klingon type pods at
normal cost/effectiveness, but not exchange them from the Klingons. Fighters would be similar. Again, this rule is to prevent cherry picking the best hull type (or the best currently producible one) between empires. The only way to stop this is to make it costly.
xD6 means 1 to x on a D6.
Fighters/heavy fighters/bombers squadrons- use the SFB squadron size (i.e. 6, 8, 12, or oversized). INT/PF- by flotilla. All from one ship/base/unit (i.e. if you have 2 casual PFs on ship a, and 1 on ship b, you calculate with 2 and 1, not 3). I assume the Hydrans use these rules (again, might be an empire specific rule that the GMs have used that I am ignorant of).
Note- empire specific rules are specific to the empire and typically the game. The Romulans have, for example, several different versions of how modular ship production limits are handled, and different limits on how NTW to Y warp to modern warp (i.e. SnS->SnA->SnB) are handled.
Another thing about technology is that it is totally within the hands of the GM and what is desired is not necessarily what the research team will get.
For example, in your game the Deltans have never seen a cloaked ship but suddenly decide they want one. (You as a GM should probably warn them that this research could progress very slowly.) Their research team may start, but perhaps their first success (which takes a minimum of 4 turns or a huge expenditure of EPs) may only be slightly effective and may only work on frigates.
Their first success with a real cloak could produce one cloaking device per turn, for frigates only. They might have to find out how to make devices powerful enough to work on DDs.
When they finally learn to make ones powerful enough to cover their largest ship, they can then increase production from one to two cloaking devices per turn.
It totally depends on the GM and if he wants to stop this sort of action (which I strongly advise as the different empires should be balanced and this sort of thing invariably leads to an imbalance) or if the GM wants a wild and wooly game (cloaked Jindarian asteroid ships with maulers, all whipping around space with "improved hulls" facing off with cloaked Feds with PFs, maulers, and stasis field generators).
actual give we are a stat game
.143x base value=100=14/14 mod 14/13 for a fed DD
.143x 115 DDc=16/15 or 16/16 if you give a bonus for DF or 12/15 since cloaks cost so much in energy that they can't load all their weapons. it is somewhat meaning less. What is important is the value of the ship AF/DF factors the limited number of special ships, C&C #, and sq comp.
150AF/144DF vs 250AF/234DF is still the important numbers call them cloaked or DDG or D5D
the only on special attacks or defenses will they have a sm effect (ok maulers have a big effect) and if I can get project blue sky working a very big effect
Rob, the example I gave above is a watered-down, non-specific version from a project that Mike, Charles, and I were working on that would have codified a "tech tree" approach. The Romulans might have full "Cloaking tech". The Deltans would not and would have to earn each one. What it would have allowed is the GM and the player to work together to decide which branch of the tech was explored first. For examply, maybe the first step was "fuzzy tech" that added a point of DF to an FF and could be produced at the rate of one per turn. The player could decide to see if DDs could be "fuzzied", if he wanted to make more "fuzzy devices" per turn, if the "fuzziness" could be improved, or some combination.
I can't go into specifics because I know more about special techs than perhaps I ought and simultaneously I don't know everything the GMs know.
True Jeanie however my example was based on the wild west varient What the players call the ships is less important then there AF/DF factors.
I have played in games where S7 was involted to U? off the top of my head were ships numbers were set by rule book as 12 NCL=4 veriant ect.
Where the Gorns could have BB,DNH,DN,CVA in one sq something john would not allow. Since the game is Stat based however the GM wants to handle tech/trades is allowed
Thanks for all the input. I think I'll play it safe and avoid C17.30 for the time being while I stress test my campaign.
Is there any way to get these empire-specific rules? They sound like they would be worth reading over and possibly including in my first run.
Right now I think I've got most of my 'rules' set out. The major items are:
--Non-historical, but relatively balanced, set-up on a 2/3 size map, Y150 start, Alpha powers only.
--More relaxed conversion rates - if this doesn't work, I can always change it, the players have been warned that this is a 'work in progress', and they're kosher with this.
--Fixed PCU increase based on economic footing (we're talking .x% per year).
--Research only into the rule-book techs.
--Andromedans to be introduced as GM controlled 'raiders' 10 to 15 years in.
--Not concerning myself with X or Y rule ships.
Thanks again, again,
-Christopher
You can safely use C17.30, you just have to keep the choices along historical lines and avoid ahistorical tech types. I.e. the Romulans can use C17.30 to move up their new series hawks, but they can not try and develop SFGs. A 10 year bump on fighters and a 7 year one on CW tech will keep people on their toes.