When Module X-1R was published, there were a few ships that "didn't make the cut" to be included, but which players still want. For example, I know that there are Fed players who want an X-tech light cruiser based in the NCL. Also, there are still a few niche capabilities that probably need to be filled. Staying with the Federation as an example, they probably need an X-tech drone bombardment ship. We know that the Kzinti and Klingons built the CMDX and D5DX respectively, so they clearly did not believe that the drone bombardment cruiser was obsolete. The same logic would presumably lead the Feds to also build a drone bombardment ship.

So, what X-ships are still needed? I'm not primarily interested in "impossible" ships like DNXs and BCHs, nor really oddball stuff that might have been converted to X-tech, like a an E7X. I'm looking for X-ships that probably would have been built, that were "needed" because they fill some gap or provide some capability that the existing X-ships don't, but have not yet been published.

I'll start this off with the empire I play most often and whose ships I know the best, the Tholians.

1. CWSX or CSVX
Rationale - The Tholian SCX, based on their DDX, is weaker as an electronic warfare platform than its counterparts because it has less power available for EW. it generates 27 points, with another 9 points of reserve power. Compare this to the Klingon FSX at 30 generated plus 9 reserve or the Romulan SKSX at 29 generated but a whopping 18 reserve. The Tholian X-scout has some good features, but it is out-powered as an X-xcout. And this situation has gotten worse with X1R. Most races got X-cruiser-based heavy scouts with 4 special sensors and X-cruiser levels of power to operate them. The Tholians got an X-tech PF tender based on their CWX. This has the power to compete with other X-scouts, but it only has 2 special sensors. The Tholians need a CWX-based heavy scout with 4 special sensors. There are 2 plausible candidates, a straight CWSX or a CSVX. The latter is their heavy fighter carrier. The former would be a cheaper solution but the latter would bring more firepower, with its squadron of Spider-Vs. Whichever they build, a cruiser-based, X-tech heavy scout with 4 special sensors is the highest priority Tholian X-tech need, in my opinion.

2. "Upgunned" PCX
Rationale - The Tholian PCX is weaker than other X-frigates in open space but is an efficient web defender. Back during the X1R discussions there was some talk of an X-tech version of the DPC, the disruptor-armed patrol corvette. In the non-X case, the PC loses 2 phaser-1s and gains 1 disruptor. This is not a good trade, though I can understand the design as excessive caution on the part of the Tholians while testing an unfamiliar weapon. But later designs, such as the CA/CAP or Arachnid/Arachnid-P seem to indicate that a 1-for-1 swap between disruptors and phaser-1s is more realistic once the Tholians are confident with the tecdhnology. If the Tholians could replace one of their FX phaser-1s with an FA or FH disruptor, that would improve its "open space" firepower. Combining that change with increased power at the expense of the snares (trading one snare for an APR and the other for a 3rd battery) would create a similar situation to the PC/PC+ dynamic, with the PC being a better web defender and the PC+ a better fighter in open space. The PCX would be the Tholian's primary web defender in the X-tech era and the "upgunned" version would be their primary small patrol ship. The DDX would be better than either, in either role, but I don't believe the Tholians can build enough DDXs to supplant the PCX.

3. PWX
Rationale - Tholian ships that have non-X disruptor and photon versions also have both disruptor and photon versions at the X-tech level; the CCX/CPX, CAX/PAX, and DDX/DPX. Since the Tholians have a CWX, it seems likely that there would be an X-tech version of their CWP as well. I suggest the "PWX" designation based on the CAX/PAX designations for their X-tech, non-web caster, heavy cruisers. This ship seems to me plausible, but not as necessary as the CWSX/CSVX or "upgunned" PCX. Those ships fill actual needs for the Tholians while the PWX is more "nice to have". So it is my third priority.

That's my take on the Tholians. I'm curious what other players see as the still-unmet needs for their preferred empires.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 01:32 pm: Edit

A webcaster ship for smaller squadrons.

So a WC equipped DDX.

1) IT makes drone and plasma defense a 100% better.

2) It allows ships under threat of "crunch overrun" to duck and cover.

3) It does not require any new rules.

FOr that matter, I would be interested in seeing if any THolians, post Seltorians, ever experiment with Particle Cannon to replace the mish mash of disruptors and photons.

Or they build PC equipped fighters/ bombers/ pfs.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 02:22 pm: Edit

A web caster on a CWPX would be nice. It could cast web from a distance to support the PFs and in the X-tech era this would be very useful.

Tholians need to patrol sealed borders and so should continue to field PFs longer than other empires.

Either that of they return to building the Pol and build Pol-X's.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 02:38 pm: Edit

The question of Particle Cannons requires a complex answer. The first question that needs to be answered is can they build them. It's really a basic decision, I think, that ADB has to make. The question I think they might ask is why? WHy bother with the PC when the photon and disruptor perform better or as good and require no research. Indeed, they have X-versions of those weapons at the time when the Holdfast Tholians would be fielding standard tech PC's (assuming an X-particle cannon would be several years in R&D after filding regulars ones).

It occures to me that small Tholians units might be pretty deadly with particle cannons. They wouldn't be very practical on larger ships... or rather, not more practical than disruptors. However, on fast nimble units a couple PC could prove quite nasty tactically. Put one or two such ships in large squadrons or fleets and you get something that could always be ready to take advantage of any opertunity. The enemy could never show a weak or down shield without being punished. PC's could have their place in the Tholian fleet if fielded within it's oractical limits.
Were I a Tholian Second Senate Vice Chancellor, I would want to see the PC used as yet another way to throw potential invaders off balance. An enemy would never know if he were going to face photons, disruptors, web casters, or Particle Cannons. It would complicate logigistics some but the Holdfast is small so the impact shouldn't be too much.
PC equipped ships would probably not be sent to Op. U. (Because the PC probably would be developed in time, nor would the Tholians care to offer up that Ace card for the other races to observe in combat.)

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 12:52 am: Edit

Mike and Loren,

I don't think a DDX or CWPX with a web caster is viable becasue the Tholians can't produce and maintain enough web casters in this galaxy. In their home galaxy the Tholians could produce web casters in great numbers and even their destroyers carried them. But extrapolating from the numbers in F&E, the Tholians can produce more X-cruisers than they can produce web casters. That's why they needed the CAX and PAX and CWX. They couldn't produce enough casters to make all their (new production) X-cruiser CCXs or CPXs in the first place. So why would they ever mount one one a smaller, less capable hull.

If that small X-squadron needs web caster support, it gets an X-cruiser (probably an NLX). If the squadron's mission isn't important enough to justify assigning an X-cruiser to it, it isn't important enough to justify a web caster. For the Tholians, the web caster is harder to replace then the X-cruiser; not more expensive - just harder to replace.

Regarding particle cannons, I would prefer to see those remain Seltorian-only in the modern era. The Tholians had the technology but lost it. Giving it back to them just seems like more tech slosh to me.

But back to my original question; what about other empires? In my first post I mentioned a Fed NCLX and X-tech drone bombardment ship as probable unmet requirements. What else is needed for the Feds or anyone else?

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 09:24 am: Edit

These are the Feds from the original X1R list that didn't make the cut:
Fed GVAX
Fed Tug-X
Fed NCLX
Fed ACSX
Fed CVHX
Fed CVX
Fed DDLX
Fed DXD
Fed FFSX
Fed DEX
Fed DVHX
Fed DX
Fed CLX

By Richard Sherman (Rich) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 10:24 am: Edit

I would swear that a Fed X-version of the NCL has already been published, and I thought it was in X1R. Isn't it the NLX?

30 warp, 2/3 MC, 4 photons...seems like the X version of the NCL to me...

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 10:43 am: Edit

Putting a web caster on a CWPX is like putting one on a DN, BPV wise once you count that it supports a flotilla of PFs. PFs in the X-era could use that sort of support. There aren't very many PF tenders so the demand would not be high and tenders stay out of direct combat (at least they are supposed to).

I would not see them putting WC's on small units like DDXs. I don't think I ever suggest they would. But a CWPX is a unique unit that could use a Web Caster, probably better than any other ship in the fleet.

I could see the Tholians, if they could develop them, putting Particle Cannons on small units like the DDX but not on larger units. The fast and nimble DDX with pleanty of power would make good use of the multiple firing particle cannons.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 10:47 am: Edit

In my above post (two up) I meant to say the PC would not be developed in time for Op U.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 10:59 am: Edit

We need a B11X.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 12:06 pm: Edit

"We need a B11X"

Like we need a hole in the head.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 12:17 pm: Edit

Loren,

My comment about a web caster on a DDX was in response to Mike Grafton's post on Sunday, 2 August at 1:32 pm.

I agree with you about the effectiveness of web casters and PFs acting in coordination. But I would argue that the Tholians shouldn't commit their CWPX to combat unless the action was sufficiently important to justify including an X-cruiser in the force. The CWPX itself doesn't need a web caster and with only 2 special sensors, firing the web caster cuts the ship's ability to provide EW support in half. If the CWPX had 4 special sensors, like the Romulan, then firing the web caster would still leave 3 unblinded channels for EW purposes. I could see it in that case, but not on a 2-channel CWPX.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 12:22 pm: Edit

Loren,

I also forgot, in my 12:52 am post, to respond to your comment about POL-Xs. If I recall, you argued for those back during the X1R discussions and I argued against them at that time. But that was because there were a number of ships (NLX, CWX, CWPX) that I thought were more important for the Tholians. But as you can see, my list of what the Tholians still need is pretty short. So I could easily support a POL-X for the next X-tech module.

In fact, I believe that eventually the police ships of most empires will get X-tech, though it will generally be years after the military gets it.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 12:25 pm: Edit

Richard Sherman,

If a Fed NCLX does exist, I'm about 90% confident it's not in X1R. I'm about 60% confident it doesn't exist at all as an ADB-sanctioned official design. Doubtless many people have come up with their own personal versions.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 01:43 pm: Edit

In the later years, there is a need for either a FAST or X commando ship. Or HDW.

Arguement:

1) You are still going to have missions that require a commando ship

2) Your raiding force is tied to the speed of the slowest ship.

3) A non X or fast ship will either be so slow that the other side can reinforce or intercept so that you can't make successful raids.

Mike

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 02:33 pm: Edit

These are the Tholian (and Selt) ships identified for X1R that did not make the cut:

Tholian CAPX (CAX with optional WC)
Tholian PFTX (PCX based)
Tholian CANX
Tholian CPFTX (CX based PFT)
Tholian DWX
Tholian CWSX
Tholian DPWX
Tholian COMX (Boom from NLX)

Campaign Conjectural:
Selt CLX
Selt FFX
Selt SCX (DD Based)

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 03:25 pm: Edit

Tos,

CAPX? I don't understand this. The only difference between the CCX and the CAX is that the CCX has 4 disruptors and a web caster while the CAX has 5 disruptors. (Well, there's also a BPV difference.) Just what does "(CAX with optional WC)" even mean in this context?

PFTX I can see this. Not a high priority, but I could see it.

CANX As a Tholian, why would I want one? It's not a very useful ship by X-ship standards and any mission it could do, the CAX will be better at. It would presumably be cheaper than a CAX - but enough cheaper to justify the reduced capabilities (less power for higher movement cost, worse shields, worse maneuverability, one more disruptor but 4 fewer phaser-1s)?

CPFTX Could be a useful ship but I doubt the Tholians would dedicate a CCX/CAX (note; the Tholians don't have a "CX") for that when a CWX hull does the job. Still, if the Tholians could spare the hull, this could be a formidable ship.

DWX I would love to see a ship like this. But it will be a tough sell given that the Tholians don't have a non-X DW.

CWSX If this is a CWX-based heavy scout, I agree completely. You'll note it was my ^#1 priority when I started this thread.

DPWX Impossible. The DPW is SC2. It's a small dreadnought, to be sure. But it is a dreadnought. Won't happen unless SVC decides to publish "impossible" DNXs for all empires.

COMX Not a "boom" but I take your point. The NCX and NLX actually use the same CoMX and I don't recall a separated CoMX being published, even though the separated non-X CoM has been published.

Concur with all the Seltorian suggestion, but more than anything they need that SCX.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 03:57 pm: Edit

This was the list of ships suggested for X1R that were not published. Its entirely possible that a similar ship was published making the original list obsolete. Also, X1R cherry picked the easy ships. Those that didn’t make the cut are likely to be a bit more esoteric.

CAPX: The CAX is really a CCH converted to X tech. The original CAX was intended to be a 4 disruptor plus optional web caster design based off the CA. One of the early visions of X1R was to produce a few designs that were less heavily armed than those ships found in X1. The PAX in X1R has 5 photons. IMO 5 X-Photons with the probability of a -1 to hit against GW foes breaks game balance. My original vision of a CAPX was an X-upgrade of the CAP/CCP, that is 2xDisr, 2xPhot, 1xWC-OPT. SPP chose to go another way. So to answer your question, in this context, the CAPX would be a straight X conversion of the CAP. This is worth considering because the mixed armament makes the ship interesting.

CANX: On the other hand, I look at 4 fewer phasers on an X-upgrade as a good thing. You've got a speed 24 CAN. If you apply the X-refit you can make a speed 30 CANX. Its not more effective than other designs, it just takes a sub-par maneuver limited ship and gives it fleet speed. That turns a base sitter into a fleet speed capable pocket D. The ISC do the same thing with their NAX, though they get a much better return on investment.

CPFTX: The CPFTX was identified due to the perceived difficulty in upgrading war classes to X-tech. Since the CWPX was built the CPFTX would be obsolete. The limiting factor that made the upgrade of a CW to X-Tech difficult and rare was discarded with the publication of X1R.

DPWX: You say impossible. I say extremely unlikely. The Tholians use extra galactic tech. Maybe they can crack the SC2 barrier. All it takes is a minor variation in the history that shows the limiting factor was mass (as represented by movement cost), not size.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 04:09 pm: Edit

Alan,

I would argue that a web caster could lend more support for the PF flotilla than a single special sensor. Perticularly if the flotilla is a full Leader/Scout group.

Since the Tholian boarder requires so much patroling, the CWPX will often be patroling on it's own. A web caster is just the thing to interfer with invading pirates and Klingons.

The web caster can truely be thought of as a fleet support weapon, particularly due to the limited supply. A PF Tender and flotilla is a sort of mini-fleet with the Tender the primary support. I dare say the CWPX is probably one of the most valuable ships in the Tholian fleet.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 04:40 pm: Edit

Loren,

I think we'll probably continue to disagree on this. Tholian space is so compact that an X-cruiser will never be very far away. Again extrapolating from F&E rules regarding the number of XTPs each empire gets, the Tholians will soon have a higher density of X-ships in their space than anyone except the Wyn. The major races will far outstrip them in total number of X-ships but will also have vastly larger borders (and interiors) to defend. I think that is the reason that the Romulan and Klingon X-tech PFTs are mentioned as sometimes patrolling alone. The Tholians face an entirely different strategic situation and I just don't see the CWPX as an independent patrol ship. It strikes me as more of a strategic reserve.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 04:54 pm: Edit

Tos,

I'm afraid I don't buy your arguement about the DPWX. First of all, movement cost and mass don't really correlate very well. There are some MC1 ships that are less massive than some MC²/₃ ships, for example (based on ship mass as listed in GURPS Klingons and GURPS Romulans). Something else, besides simple mass, is involved here. How does the mass of a DPW compare to that of other dreadnoughts or to large cruisers like the BCHs? I don't know (and it was therefor careless of me to state categorically that it is a "small" dreadnought, though I believe that to be the case).

But more to the point, allowing a DPWX would start an arms race that I don't think SVC wants. It would totally outclass any published X-ship except for the DNLXs from the Dreadnoughts at War module and those were all very explicitly stated to be "impossible" to build. At the absolute minimum, everyone would insist that their favorite empire get a BCHX as a "real" ship. And I believe SVC has said BCHXs are also impossible, at least until X2.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 05:27 pm: Edit

Loren,

It occurs to me that a "CPFTX" (need a more compact designation), a CCX-based PFT, might be a reasonable candidate for a web caster. It is enough larger than a CWX that it presumably could have 4 special sensors (replacing the disruptors) and a web caster, as well as more power (though a bit of power and/or a few phasers might be lost to make room for additional mech-link tractors and some repair) and better shields. With 4 special sensors, one of my main objections to a web caster-equipped CWPX would vanish since it could use the web caster every turn while still keeping 3 special sensors in operation every turn.

I still don't know whether the Tholians would allocate a CCX hull for that but it seems more likely to me than a CWPX-with-web caster does.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 06:19 pm: Edit

Having a CCX "always nearby" is rarely possible. While Tholian space is small compared to other empires, it's still pretty big. Each stratigic hexs represents days of travel at the very least, not minutes or hours needed to count on always having a CCX nearby. That also assumes that there is a CCX nearby that isn't doing anything. I'd go so far as to say there is never a CCX nearby.

When I proposed the Thol-Pol my primary arguement for it was that the existing fleet could not possibly seal the entire border thousands of parsec long from any incursion including supporting the fact that there is no piracy in the Holdfast. So the Pol was introduced to provide the ecconomy of force required to seal the border from any incursion. Responses have to be in short order. The mission of the Pol is not to engage but to force the enemy to slow to tactical by bringing a weapon to range. (For others not familiar, ships in high warp are extremely vulnerable while in high warp and so NEVER maintain it near anything that could be a threat, which is pretty much anything.)

Once the Arachnid comes into being the ecconomy of force service of the Pol transfers to the PF and Pol production slow or ends (I'm not sure which of the top of my head). A single PF is adiquate to force a slow to tactical, after which the others close in on the target including the tender. The PFT is going to most certainly be the first responder in every case.

So PFT's are serving to seal the boarder and the CWPX exists to counter other X-ships (and obviously anything less) and Andromedans. They will likely be covering a sector alone.

I don't see how a web caster would impact the EW situation too much and the benefit would vastly outweigh what is lost. With a scout PF the EW situation would not be impacted at all if the PFT is not in the midst of the battle.

I don't see the Tholians building a PFTX based on the CCX. The CCX is too valuable for it's own role and the CWX is adiquate to the task. When you have a scout PF, the special sensors on the tender are mainly for the strategic value. The tactical support is important, but secondary.

IMO, the gains vastly out weigh the loss of a special sensor for a short time. I cite the example in (G24.132). Also, the CWPX currently lacks a web generator. It's couldn't hurt to have one.

We don't have to agree, but I felt it was important to point out these last issues as I see 'em.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 06:20 pm: Edit

I think a WC equiped CWPX would be dandy at hunting the RTN. Stick a pair where the shuttle bays are or just replace Ph#1 with one? As you say, a C based X-PFT with 4xSS and 1xWC would be a superior design.

Alan, I would propose that the DPX be published only in tandom with the other races getting BCHX class ships, which I hope to be no time soon.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 06:29 pm: Edit

I'd like to see two CWX put together like PCs for a CA. Did they do a heavy CA with two DDs?

Get them for less and Crazy Gideons X-ship X-travaganza!