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Barry,

Let's look at your initial assumptions.

First, "The Maesron should match the two drone racks of the Klingon". Why? The Klingons are a seeking weapon race. The Maesrons are a direct fire race, that happens to have this auxiliary seeking weapon system. Expecting TM racks to match up with drone racks is a bad idea. One of the main design premises of Omega was that seeking weapons are much rarer. Thus, Omegans tend not to have seekers, and when they do, they don't match up to Alpha Quadrant stuff.

Second, "Therefore, I would like tachyon missiles to be about twice as deadly as a drone." That's a nice theory, but as you point out, they're not. Trying to change them so they are is a laudable goal if you are planning on redesigning the Maesrons. But that's NOT what we're doing here.

We're trying to make tourney cruisers that are representative of each race, and balanced with other tourney cruisers. When I say the TMs you are putting on the Maesron are munchkin, I don't mean they are overly powerful. I mean they are every Maesron captain's wet dream, but do not resemble the TMs that historically were used.

In the tournament, even the Kzintis don't get special drones. They don't get type-IV swordfish drones with external armor, ATG and extended range. They don't even get internal armor. They certainly don't get modules that represent entirely new technology. They get basic drones.

So, yes, TMs are wimpy. That's what you get in the Omega sector. And yes, there is a tech mismatch when you are facing drones.

But there's no reason you can't make a balanced Maesron TC without inventing new technology. A Maesron TC with 40 power, 4 TG, 8 p1, 4p3, 2 TM-B, should be quite viable. Compare it with a Lyran. If it still comes up short, go to 4 racks.

And I'm not opposed to putting some upgrades on the TMs - propulsion, armor, warhead, even additional anti-tractor. But I think inventing new technology for the tournament should be a last resort, and I'm not convinced of the necessity here. The energy you are putting into the TMs for the Maesron TC is misplaced, IMO. When you get down to it, they are a minor part of the Maesron arsenal.

Finally, if your opponent is using drones to kill your TMs, shoot down the drones. Putting 4 points of damage into that counter-TM drone means your opponent will have to put 8 (or 12 or more, depending on the missile) into your missile, or your missile will hit, so it is a good use of resources.

By Barry Kirk (Barrykirk) on Monday, November 22, 2010 - 07:04 pm: Edit

Andy,

In the Omega Master Rulebook, it claims that TM are huge. They are far to big to place into a scatter pack.

So... if they are going to be fairly wimpy as in base missiles with no or few improvements, than why would the Maesrons have them at all?

Any case what I'm trying to do is build a TC that is about equally viable against any opponent. Not strong against some and weak against others.

If one looks at drone versus drone combat, it's typical for one race to use drones as counter drones. I've done it myself. Yes, a drone vastly overkills another drone, but people have no problem. So given the choice of firing a P3 or a drone at a drone, very often people will fire a drone rather than a phaser.

Given the choice of firing a 2 or 3 P3 against a base tachyon missile versus a drone, they will fire the drone every time. It's just much more efficient. This means that drone armed ships have an advantage against Maesrons versus everyone else. I'm trying to level the playing field by reducing that advantage.

As for creating new module types. I did talk talk to Bruce Graw about it and he had no problem. He lost a lot of stuff when his hard drive crashed and I suspect that he never considered Omega complete. I'm trying to fill in some of the gaps.

I've given up on the SEF and Phaser Defense Modules as not being viable.

As for Kzintis not getting special drones. That is mostly true but they do get fast drones.

I agree that I needed to tone down the missiles a bit.

Per the e-mail I sent to you earlier today... and I'm going to reduce things a bit from that.

I'm going to keep the B racks since I've further reduced the missiles.

All of the missiles will be

Normal frame ( 8 SP )
Speed 24 prop module effective speed 20 ( 2 SP )
Two Chaff pods ( 2 SP )
Explosion 12 ( 1 SP )
Armor 10 ( 1 SP )
Anti-Tractor 1 ( 0 SP )

Would you prefer that or four A racks of base missiles?

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, November 22, 2010 - 09:07 pm: Edit

I'd suggest just going to back to basic Tachyon Missiles and planning on Omega vs Omega fights (i.e. no Alpha empires). If there are no drone racks to have to worry about, it is probably worth resetting the Tachyon Missiles to basic rules again and see how it goes--from what I understand, the big issue with TMs is that they are too easy to kill with drones. If there are no drones ('cause the Omega ships are balanced out against other Omega ships and ignore the Alpha ships), then regular old TMs are probably fine.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, November 22, 2010 - 10:24 pm: Edit

It would be best though if they had some balance against drones for those who want to play them vs Aklpha ships.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Tuesday, November 23, 2010 - 12:04 am: Edit

---

Quote:

So... if they are going to be fairly wimpy as in base missiles with no or few improvements, than why would the Maesrons have them at all?

---

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Tuesday, November 23, 2010 - 12:06 am: Edit

And by the way...

Although I don't think the TM is going to make or break the Maesron, I'm not arguing for it to have 20/8/8/-1 base missiles.

I think propulsion-24, or even propulsion-28, with 4 spaces of stuff, is reasonable. Having 2-3 different types is reasonable. SEF modules, phaser modules, huge frames, 8 spaces of stuff, or tourney-only rules for operation are not reasonable.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, November 23, 2010 - 05:12 am: Edit

One of the main points of FC is to keep things simple.

I would suggest something similar to what was done with drones.

One speed is what you always get (probably 24), there was a slow missile in earlier days and a faster one you can buy (speed 32) if both sides agree.

Warhead and damage to kill should be the same for all eras. It is not necessary to slavishly try to duplicate omega from SFB, simplifying complex systems, weapons and rules should be one of the main goals.

Anti tractor should be present except perhaps for early missiles. It should have the same strength regardless of era if present.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, November 23, 2010 - 07:43 am: Edit

Richard wrote:
>>It would be best though if they had some balance against drones for those who want to play them vs Aklpha ships.>>

The Tachyon Missiles already have *some* balance against drones--launch them at R1 when they hit the next impulse. Then they can't get shot down by drones.

As already noted, the Maesron is already a mostly reasonable DF ship that has a goofy backup weapon that has trouble against drones. But conveniently, the other empires that it is designed to work against (i.e. Omega ships) don't have drones. Going through complicated endless revisions trying to make the TMs work against drones seems kind of like not the best use of resources--if the plan with the Omega TCs is that they fight against other Omega TCs, then TMs are going to work fine with the rules and designs they already come with.

Yeah, if the TCs themselves are generally balanced against Alpha TCs, that is good for messing around with Alpha vs Omega, but if in terms of actually balancing the ships, the goal is "these should be primarily balanced against other Omega ships", that will be a *much* easier goal to accomplish.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, November 23, 2010 - 11:19 am: Edit

Yeah, but otoh more people will use them if you can mix them with Alpha.

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Tuesday, November 23, 2010 - 11:58 am: Edit

Wrong topic!

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Tuesday, November 23, 2010 - 12:47 pm: Edit

Peter wrote:

---

Quote:

The Tachyon Missiles already have *some* balance against drones--launch them at R1 when they hit the next impulse. Then they can't get shot down by drones.

---

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Tuesday, November 23, 2010 - 12:53 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

The Tachyon Missiles already have *some* balance against drones--launch them at R1 when they hit the next impulse. Then they can't get shot down by drones.

---

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, November 23, 2010 - 04:25 pm: Edit

Ah, yes, that. Forgot about that.

By Barry Kirk (Barrykirk) on Tuesday, November 23, 2010 - 06:56 pm: Edit

Andy,

So your suggesting maybe...

Normal frame ( 8 SP )
Speed 28 prop module effective speed 24 ( 2 SP )
Explosion 16 ( 2 SP )
Armor 12 ( 2 SP )
Anti-Tractor 1 ( 0 SP )

I could go with that... Of course if I do that, I'll reduce it to A racks.

By Barry Kirk (Barrykirk) on Tuesday, November 23, 2010 - 07:12 pm: Edit

Keep in mind that the above loadout uses a total of 6 SP...

To maintain speed 24 the next lesser missile would be


Normal frame ( 8 SP )
Speed 24 prop module effective speed 24 ( 1 SP )
Explosion 8 ( 0 SP )
Armor 8 ( 0 SP )
Anti-Tractor 1 ( 0 SP )

Part of the problem is that the prop modules are very widely spaced in their capability.

Another possibility is

Normal frame ( 8 SP )
Speed 24 prop module effective speed 22 ( 2 SP )
Explosion 12 ( 1 SP )
Armor 10 ( 1 SP )
Anti-Tractor 1 ( 0 SP )

Which isn't quite as good at evading drones, but almost.

Let me know...

If we decide on either of the above missiles, I'd probably retain the B racks.

The turnaround on the BBS is pitiful here...

Anybody who wants to call me on my cell phone

(717) 818-9049 Eastern Standard Time

Please feel free...

I should be available between 7AM to 10 PM to talk.

By Barry Kirk (Barrykirk) on Wednesday, November 24, 2010 - 08:39 pm: Edit

OK everybody...

I'm thinking of re-booting the Omega tournament.

The new Omega Tournament call it OmegaII will have the following rules.

Single elimination.

Players can pick from any of the following ships. All of whom are Omega or LMC.

1. Maesron
2. Trobrin
3. Koligahr
4. Vari
5. Probr
6. Loriyill
7. Alunda
8. Maghadim
9. Baduvai
10. Eneen
11. Drex
12. Chlorophon
13. Souldra
14. Andromedan ( Playtest )

I don't think the Ryn is ready for primetime yet.

I've included Andromedan ( Playtest ) because andromedans are seen in Omega. I'm not using Vudar or the Fed CF because they are not in Omega or LMC.

Signups are now open... just e-mail me at baldnforty@gmail.com to sign up.

I'm thinking of closing signups on at midnight December 31st, 2010.

Hope to see you.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Wednesday, November 24, 2010 - 11:34 pm: Edit

Barry,

By the time I sit down at my computer, it is usually pretty late your time, but the missile described in your Tuesday, November 23, 2010 - 06:56 pm post is what I was thinking of. I don't think it matters much whether the Maesron has A racks or B racks, as it takes 6 turns to empty a pair of A racks. I would give the Maesron a choice of three missile types:

1. prop-28/arm-12/exp-16/atrac-1
2. prop-28/arm-8/exp-12/pw3/atrac-1
3. prop-28/arm-10/exp-12/atrac-3

All are speed 24.

I could see limiting them to two choices. Or add a fourth choice, useful against ESGs and counter-drones:

4. prop-28/armor-16/exp-8/atrac-1

I don't want to make things too complicated, but the Maesron should have a few options and at least make the opponent use labs. Note that the Klingon TD7C has 6 possible drone types it can launch.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, November 25, 2010 - 09:47 am: Edit

I like what Andy posted up there. I'm a big fan of making the TMs fairly simple--the Maesron is a pretty solid DF ship. And if it can launch a few of these things, they still take up resources to deal with. Yeah, if it's opponent has drones, the TMs won't last real long, but in the world of Omega, they'll do ok. And the less fiddly they are, the easier to balance out with the Omega ships.

By Barry Kirk (Barrykirk) on Thursday, November 25, 2010 - 11:01 am: Edit

OK guys...

I'll go with B racks and use any mixture of the following two types.

Type 1

Prop: 28 effective 24 ( 2 SP )
Armor: 12 ( 2 SP )
Explosion: 16 ( 2 SP )
A-Trac 1 ( 0 SP )

or

Type 2

Prop 28 effective 24 ( 2 SP )
Armor: 16 ( 4 SP )
Explosion: 8 ( 0 SP )
A-Trac 1 ( 0 SP )

The Type 2 will almost certainly hit... Doesn't do that much damage and very expensive to stop. Type 1s will tie up resources.

I'll probably get to submitting the new ship tonight or Sunday... Not sure how my schedule will work.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, November 25, 2010 - 11:25 am: Edit

So on a different front--the Alunda TC. It has a PCG, yes? What possible good is that in the tournament environment? It is incredibly expensive to arm and hold (3 or 4 power), and doesn't do much in the tournament environment--maybe if you are running away from someone and need to turn a down shield past them, you could throw up a PC and make them shoot through some ECM (maybe) as you run. Or something like that. The vast majority of the time, however, I'd imagine that it just isn't going to be worth using, let alone paying the energy for.

Am I missing something there?

By Barry Kirk (Barrykirk) on Thursday, November 25, 2010 - 09:59 pm: Edit

Peter, You could arm it with one point of power. It would only cover one hex though. That might be useful for covering a single badly damaged shield or down shield while your turning through it.

It's actually fairly useless against seeking weapons, unless the targeted ship is inside the cloud, which is hard to arrange since the ship fires the plasma cloud directly behind it, and at starting one hex behind it.

The effects versus direct fire are a little more substantial than one would think, since it not only adds ECM per hex of cloud, but increases the effective range by 2 for each hex of plasma cloud.

Actually, it's fairly useful if fired near the end of a turn when you know the enemy weapons will cycle before yours do.

Still all in all, a very limited system and only occassionally useful.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, November 25, 2010 - 10:10 pm: Edit

On reading the rules just now, I think, really, the only instance where it is useful is when you are going backwards (Or can HET. Without reserve warp capabilities...) and about to be hit by seeking weapons--fire a single hex of PCG for 1 power, and back into the hex. The seeking weapons hit and have to roll on the !?!?$!?# Cloak Chart, which will likely save you some damage.

It is very deleterious to direct fire, but only if your enemy is compelled to shoot through it. If you throw it up as you run, your enemy can just wait till he goes through/around the cloud.

It seems likely that the vast majority of the time, in the tournament, the PCG is going to go unpowered and just be a free hit. Once and a while, it'll be worth a battery to throw a hex of PCG out behind you. But in general, mostly a useless box. Sad.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Friday, November 26, 2010 - 12:41 am: Edit

The PCG is, in general, mostly a useless box outside the tourney as well, although with multiple ships it becomes more useful. What kills it is the holding cost. In the Alunda, you don't have spare power, so 5 to power to arm or 3 to hold is far too much. If it held for free, it would be somewhat useful.

I did get some really good use out of it once, but it was a very situational thing.

By Barry Kirk (Barrykirk) on Sunday, November 28, 2010 - 12:14 pm: Edit

I too got some good use out of it... once... but that was covering my ass from direct fire near the end of turn until my weapons could cycle.

By Barry Kirk (Barrykirk) on Sunday, November 28, 2010 - 12:46 pm: Edit

Andy,

Going back over the posts. There was one question you had that I forgot to address. Why does the Maesron TC have a 32 point front shield. The simple reason was that the non tournament Maesron CA has a 32 point front shield and I thought that was part of it's racial flavor that could be kept in the tournament.

In a likewise fashion, the Loriyill gets to retain it's extra thick shields, which it really really needs in the tournament.

By Barry Kirk (Barrykirk) on Sunday, December 26, 2010 - 02:40 pm: Edit

The Hiver should be posted in a few days...

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 10:00 am: Edit

This ended in 2010 so it is a target for deletion. However, if there is ever to be an omega tournament, this data needs to be preserved. Somebody better do it soon.