Excellent tactics articles, btw. Well worth reading. All we need now are some SSDs...

By Barry Kirk (Barrykirk) on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 07:49 am: Edit

The SSDs are online. You may have to download them in the library.

By Barry Kirk (Barrykirk) on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 07:57 am: Edit

Entries are closed... Here are the round 1 matchups.

Andromedan Lyran vs The_Rock Baduvai
Lord_Goofy Hydran vs Bakija Chlorophon
The Rock Rom Firehawk vs Andy Koligahr
KenBurnside Hydran vs BanTheFed Vari
Eric_The_Silent Gorn vs Tugger Drex
BaldnForty1 Klingon vs Up_All_Knight Fed Fastie
Bneus Fed Vanilla vs Andromedan Andromedan (playtest)
Andy Kzinti vs EOL Trobrin
Up_All_Knight ISC vs KenBurnside Maghadim
EOL Lyran vs BaldnForty1 Eneen
Tugger WBS(BB) vs BaldnForty2 Maesron
BanTheFed Gorn vs Eric_The_Silent Chlorophon
BaldnForty2 Tholian (archeo) vs Lord_Goofy Ryn
Bakija Gorn vs Bneus Vudar


I'll e-mail the entries to Paul so that he can put them in a better format.

Everyone please enjoy!!!

By Peter Thoenen (Eol) on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 09:13 am: Edit

"Andy Kzinti vs EOL Trobrin"

I'm dead, one of the worst RPS matchup a trobrin can have (it has serious issues v drones)

Not complaining just pointing it out

The other one should be fun though

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 09:22 am: Edit

As it has suddenly become relevant, what are the EW rules for the Vudar that we are using?

By Peter Thoenen (Eol) on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 10:00 am: Edit

Also I broke my foot so off work until Monday ... can play pretty much anytime so email me or stop by if interested.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 11:09 am: Edit

BTW, my callsign is Laszlo.

Andy

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 09:45 pm: Edit

Matchups posted up top.

By Barry Kirk (Barrykirk) on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 06:35 pm: Edit

Laszlo,

Sorry, didn't know that...

Peter, I picked the matchups completely randomly. I then went back through and verified that nobody was playing themselves, and that we checked to make sure there were no Fed Vanilla versus Fed fastie matchups.

Well, the good news is that I'm sure your playtest report will say that the Trobrin needs improved drone defense. The key point here is that after this tournament, I will use the information gleaned to tweak all of the playtest ships and make them more balanced, whatever that means.

By Peter Thoenen (Eol) on Friday, November 13, 2009 - 05:20 am: Edit

Barry: Just griping at Lady Luck, not suggesting you should pick proper RPS matchup or play favorites

By Peter Thoenen (Eol) on Friday, November 13, 2009 - 05:21 am: Edit

Am curious why you didn't let a vanilla fed v. a fastie fed though

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, November 13, 2009 - 08:58 am: Edit

So I read that the Vudar gets some EW use from the IPG. Does it get full EW, unrestricted EW use from the IPG (i.e. does it work just like it does in the rulebook?), or does it have some limits as to how much it can apply at a given moment?

By Peter Thoenen (Eol) on Friday, November 13, 2009 - 09:48 am: Edit

I thought Barry stated to use the rules in the rulebook. It states how to use it in a non-EW environment.

By Barry Kirk (Barrykirk) on Friday, November 13, 2009 - 05:53 pm: Edit

Thought that it didn't make sense to have two fed ships having a battle.... Maybe at a later date.

I'm going to let the Vudar have the full EW from the IPG. If that turns out to be unbalancing, then we can tone it down at a later date.

Remember, the more ECM the IPG generates, the shorter the time period that it can generate it for.

I suspect, it will be more useful to have less ECM but for a longer period of time.

By Barry Kirk (Barrykirk) on Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 01:20 pm: Edit

Brook Villa ( Up_All_Knight ) Playtest Fed Fast Tournament Cruiser defeats
Barry Kirk ( BaldnForty ) Klingon
in 2 turns.

Turn 1:

Fed plotted speed 1-27=16, 28-32=26
Klingon plotted speed 1-23=16, 24-32=31

Fed pumped 15 points into photons bringing them all up to the 16 point level
and held a wild weasel and a sui shuttle

Klingon skipped arming disruptors and put

1 into a sui shuttle 9 into tractor and 5 into bricking the #6

Klingon came mostly down the center, while fed corner dived and then turned up late in the turn

Klingon launched the scatter pack around impulse 16 with release set for 2 damage points and range 12.

Klingon launched a pair of drones late in the turn. Fed counter launched a drone at Klingon drone.

Turn 2:

Fed plotted speed 1-8=16, 9-23=28, 24-32=20
with 5 into tractor

Klingon plotted speed 1-7=16,8-15=24, 16-32=16
with 4 into tractor.

Impulse 6 Fed turned to direction F to start coming around behind klingon

Impulse 8 Klingon turned to direction C for a firing pass

Fed killed off a drone with the ADD and got the other with the counter drone launched late on turn 1.

Klingon launched 3 more drones... One from the ADD.

Fed used ADD to kill two of the drones.

Impulse 11 Fed got into release range for SP and 5 drones popped out.

Impulse 12 Klingon HETd to direction A and Fed slipped into range 0...

Fed took a hit from the dogfight drone... 2 points and their was a mutual alpha strike at range 0.

Klingon had 3 ol disruptors charged and took 105 points on the #2 shield including feedback damage.

Fed took 80 points on the #6 including 12 points of feedback.

When the dust settled the Fed was badly mauled, but the klingon was a total cripple having lost all but 5 power.

Klingon went for the tractor auction but missed by 2 points of power.

After failing at the tractor auction the klingon conceded because the fed had 21 power to his 5. Fed also had a weasel online that would have taken out the drones from the pack.

Well, the Fast Fed is a mean customer and it may be a little bit on the strong side... Not sure... Certainly, it isn't weak.

It's certainly in the general ballpark, but it's still too soon to tell if it's too powerful or not.

By Brook J. Villa (Brookie) on Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 01:32 pm: Edit

Thanks for the post Barry.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 05:10 pm: Edit

Lord Goofy (HYD) over bakija (Chlorophon)

T1: I arm all 3 howitzers at 3 energy, roll the 3 SCs, and go speed 30 all turn. Scott moves 14 all turn and arms stuff, presumably. At R11, I fire all 3 howitzers and 8xQP1 (as I'm centerlined). I miss with 2 of the EHs, roll well on the phasers, and blast off most of his #2. I fire a SC to make a line of asteroid hexes and turn off. He turns in, fires a gatling into the SC hexes, and flies through it, completely ignoring it. We end the turn at about R14, me running into the corner.

T2: I arm the two EHs that will probably be in arc this turn to 6 points each, rearm some phasers, and move an insufficient speed plot. We close. I neglect to fire the SC I have in arc, as it is more likely to hurt me than him. At R4, I fire my 2xEHs, hit, and do 18 damage to each of his #1/2/6. He continues to ignore my weapons fire. I HET to try and get more guns in arc and maybe not get centerlined at R0. I get cenerlined at R0 and explode.

So yeah, I suspect that the Chlorophon is completely unsuited for tournament play. The ship *needs* to fight for multiple turns at long range (i.e. 18+), and the SCs aren't actually any good at keeping people away. The QP1s are good at long range, but horrible at close range. With only 4xQP1 in most arc (it has 4 each LS/RS), close range seeking weapons are a nightmare. And at R1, the QP1s do 3 damage 1/3 of the time (i.e. it won't cripple a shuttle of kill a type I drone 1/3 of the time). The ship only has phasers to do internals (as the EHs only do limited internals and only if they strike a already down sheild), and only 4 in most arcs, and the phasers it has do really bad damage at close ranges.

All any opposing ship needs to do to kill this thing is:

A) move to the middle of the map at speed 14 (where asteroids do minimal damage).

B) Fire some phasers at the SC hexes and ignore them.

C) Corner the ship and mangle it, where it can't measurably hurt anyone at close range due to the weird arcs and weird weapons.

In a client support sense, the Chlorophon (the one that says "30 warp playtest", which is the one that is apprently the right one to use, but doesn't have 30 warp...) still isn't ready to play on SFBOL--there are no counters to add on the map (i.e you can't actually put SC counters on the map. I had to use shuttles). The client thinks the MC1/2 ship is a MC2/3 ship (so you can't actually submit your EA form, as your movement energy is always wrong), and there isn't a final functions step to fire the SC in.

By Barry Kirk (Barrykirk) on Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 07:30 pm: Edit

Peter,

Thanks for the playtest report. I'll look into the .5 versus 2/3 move cost issue. It may be a problem with the .def file.

I'll see if we can add the SC counters properly.

As for play balancing the ship.

What would help? Maybe adding a couple of PQ-3 phasers for drone defense.

Would replacing some of the SC with PQ-1 help?

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 08:08 pm: Edit

I dunno that anything will help, really. I mean, I've only played the ship twice. But indications are that if the ship is going to remain consistent with what it actually is, it probably isn't going to work in the tournament environment, for the following reasons:

A) QP1s. They are significantly better than P1s at, like, R16+. They are significantly worse that P1s at any range closer than 9. As the tournament game tends to have most of its significant play inside of R8, the protracted advantage of the QP1 being great at R30 (relative to the P1) is unlikely to ever pay off. That, and the QP1 gets free ECCM which, when playing with full EW rules, is probably a real benefit. But without full EW, the 4 free ECCM is a mostly wasted advantage.

B) The EHs. These do a lot of damage over the long term, but on the tournament fishbowl, it isn't enough to save you from being run over. Much like the QP1, the EH is really good in a protracted long range game--if you can fire at range 23 for many turns in a row, the EHs are going to do a lot of shield damage. Once you get in close, however, (which, on the tournament map, means, like, T2...), the likely EHs don't do internals, and the QP1s don't do enough damage in close to actually do any significant internal damage through the weakened shields while your opponent is going to just demolish you. And they don't really do internal damage--you need to hit an already down shield with a full damage element. And even then, you only do 1 or 3 internals (depending on the arming level of the EH).

C) The SCs are cute, but really difficult to employ effectively. They take a long time to set up (6 impulses for a full spread), easy to get around, are easy to minimize the effect of (by moving speed 14 and shooting phasers into the hexes you fly through), and have weird arcs (along with all the weapons on the ship). If you fire two of them at once and set up a thick, hard to avoid field, you might convince your opponent to turn. And then you don't have any SCs to defend yourself with for another 2 turns. They are great against, like, a mass of seeking weapons flying after you. But as anyone with a mass of seeking weapons has all the incentive in the world to just hold its guns and fly at you until you are inevitably cornered and launch them from R1 where you have no reasonable way to defend yourself, the SCs aren't ever going to get to be used in this way.

D) The weapon arcs are rough. With only 3 heavy weapons, of which only 2 can shoot in most directions, it is difficult to actually shoot anyone. Especially up close. The P1s are split LS/RS, so again, in most firing situations, you got 4 of them in arc.

I suspect that if the ship were completely rebuilt from the ground up, there might be a way to make a reasonably competitive ship that has Energy Howitzers and Subspace Cooagulators, but it wouldn't look anything like the current Chlorophon ship.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 12:05 am: Edit

A few things I should point out here:

- As I have said before under Star Fleet Battles: SFB Tournament Zone: Omega, Magellanic, and other TCs, I would start with a BC hull for the Phon TC, with 3xEH, 2xSC, 8xPQ1, 4xPQ3. The Phon needs a couple extra p3s to be more viable at short range.

- The Hydran is a tough opponent for the Phon in the tourney setting. Especially if you put too much power into weapons and not enough into speed, and let him get to 0, which you did. Actually, most ships will die horribly if you let the Hydran go to zero with weapons intact and armed.

- EHs are nasty. But you almost never arm them for 6 power. Go with 4 if you have the power, otherwise do 1 pointers and keep your speed up. A single EH can do damage comparable to a PPD, and you have three of them. Sure, they don't do a lot of internals, but the fact is, by the time that becomes an issue, your opponent will have multiple down shields. That means up to 9 internals from an EH - nothing to sneeze at.

- The SCs are potentially very powerful against big plasma or heavy droners. Against the rest of your opponents, save your power. If your opponent goes all out into chasing you down, they are chasing a ship that can arm its phasers while going 30. If you got some decent EH hits on the forward shields, they are going to be eating some serious mizia, even with weenie PQs.

- The weapon arcs make it difficult to concentrate an alpha strike. OTOH, you can fire heavy weapons out of five shields, and a full phaser strike directly aft.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 09:18 am: Edit

Andy wrote:
>>- As I have said before under Star Fleet Battles: SFB Tournament Zone: Omega, Magellanic, and other TCs, I would start with a BC hull for the Phon TC, with 3xEH, 2xSC, 8xPQ1, 4xPQ3. The Phon needs a couple extra p3s to be more viable at short range.>>

That might very well be the case. But it isn't what is there currently. Currently, it has 3xEH, 3xSC, 8xQP1 total.

>>- The Hydran is a tough opponent for the Phon in the tourney setting. Especially if you put too much power into weapons and not enough into speed, and let him get to 0, which you did. Actually, most ships will die horribly if you let the Hydran go to zero with weapons intact and armed.>>

The Hydran could have just as well been anyone and done the same thing. Just moving forward at medium speeds with some reinforcement and using some phasers to get through SC hexes is going to result in the Chlorophon getting caught in a corner and mugged. Without seeking weapons to deter pursuit or a significant close range alpha strike to deter overrun, the Hydran could have been a Klingon or a Fed or a Seltorian. Same thing would have happened.

>>- EHs are nasty. But you almost never arm them for 6 power. Go with 4 if you have the power, otherwise do 1 pointers and keep your speed up.>>

Keeping speed up is all well and good, but on the tournament fishbowl, all the speed in the world can't keep your opponent from getting to close range--even R2 (which is virtually impossible to avoid from anyone who is determined) is going to result in being mangled. The sheild damage of the EHs can certainly be significant if it gets to add up over the long haul, but there isn't going to be a long haul with this ship.

And I'll ask if by "4 power" you meant "3 power"? 3 power lets you shoot every turn. 4 power seems like the least optimal firing option--not enough damage to be scary, still need to cool for a turn.

>>- The SCs are potentially very powerful against big plasma or heavy droners.>>

If they launch hordes of drones and plasma at range, sure. But why would they do that? Why not just run at the ship and get to R1-2 before launching? Its phasers do horrible damage at close range and the EHs don't do internals. Run at the ship, corner it, kill it.

I mean, again, I've played this ship twice in my life. But indications are that unless it is a completely different ship, it probably isn't going to work in the tournament environment.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 12:21 pm: Edit

Don't get me wrong, I think the Phon needs some adjustments to be viable. But I don't think it is as hopeless as you think. One thing that should be pointed out in your battle is that Scott is a big fan of the Phons, and knows their strengths and weaknesses.

On the EHs, I meant 4 power. It does 2x the damage compared with 3 power. I would almost never use the 3 power option because it only does 1 point of damage more than 1 power. In summary, either use the 4 power option for crunch, or use the 1 power option because it is cheap and lets you fire every turn.

On keeping speed up, yes, a really determined opponent can get close, eventually. But if the Phon is moving 30, a ship moving 20 is not going to get that close. A ship moving 30 will, but most ships can't arm much when going 30. If you are just charging without much armed, there is the risk that the Phon will turn and come in. A close-range exchange can work for the Phon versus many opponents. The Phon is a very tough ship, and if you trade 30 in on the Phon for 3 down shields and 10 in, the Phon is in good shape.

That won't work so well against big seekers, although if the approach angles are just a little off, things could get ugly. But against a well-flown Phon, a banzai charge by a big seeker ship could look like this: Turn 1, take 16 damage on the #2 and #6, and 34 on the #1, after he hits you at 7 and turns off. Spend your phasers shooting through SC asteroids, or lose position by going around them. (Note that the Hydran can go through a couple spore hexes without blinking, but for most other ships, you end up using p1s, especially if your #1 is down). Turn 2, you work the Phon toward the corner, but don't get too close, or you are getting mizia'd with phasers that can fire aft as easily as forward. Turn 3, you are facing the EHs again. If you did manage to get the Phon cornered, he starcastles and weasels.

The PQs have their shortcomings, yes, but I think you are selling them too short. At range 9-15, they are 1/3 better than a P1. At range 6-7, they are only 8% worse. At range 0-3, they do about 1 point less than their Alpha counterparts. Note also that PQ3s are effective out to range 7. Where PQs have problems is shooting down drones - a PQ1 will struggle to shoot down a type-1 drone.

I think with a BC hull and a couple more phasers, the ship would be viable. I would hesitate to go to far with the upgrades, else you will create a monster.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 04:09 pm: Edit

Andy wrote:
>>One thing that should be pointed out in your battle is that Scott is a big fan of the Phons, and knows their strengths and weaknesses.>>

Heh. I think that is a pretty solid overstatement--again, all Scott did was move forward until he caught me, completely ignoring all weapons fire. I certainly could have played T2 much better, but I don't think it would have helped all that much.

>>On the EHs, I meant 4 power. It does 2x the damage compared with 3 power. I would almost never use the 3 power option because it only does 1 point of damage more than 1 power.>>

Yeah, on checking the charts, you are completely correct. That being said, on the first turn, arming the EHs at 3 or 1 didn't really matter, as the ship could move speed 30 all turn, arm all three EH at 3 points, and still have power left over. On the second turn, yeah, arming the EHs at 4 instead of 6 power would have saved 4 power, meaning more speed or phasers armed, but still, unlikely to have helped much. Might have avoided R0, but R2 was still going to kill me.

>>I think with a BC hull and a couple more phasers, the ship would be viable. I would hesitate to go to far with the upgrades, else you will create a monster.>>

Fair enough.

By John Smith (Johnsmith) on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 04:33 pm: Edit

Just a random thought, but would it help the Phon to disallow using weapons to shoot a hole in asteroids in the tourney setting?

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 07:01 pm: Edit

On turn 1, the non-Phon is going only about 14 so has oodles of power for a brick. As such, he's not going to have a down #1 shield on T2.

The Phon looks very vulnerable to Mizia: only 3 useful heavy weapons, and every phaser hit is a good one. Two half-decent blasts of internals can completely strip the phasers from one side of the ship. You end up with a ship with 5 weapons and masses of power going nowhere.

Is there a standard tournament ship that's disadvantaged against this? I'm thinking maybe Lyran or LDR, on the assumption that the SCs can negate the ESGs. But that's dubious, as either can brick on T1 and do 40+ in on T2. And you're not going to avoid R1 from an LDR.

Maybe Tholian? A Tholian prefers a longer, more defensive game which plays into the Phon's plan. It might beat a pig, if it can keep away long enough, but I'd bet on the pig.

I think we can agree that a weaselling Phon is dead, so it's doomed against plasma or a Kzinti.